Why do you reject hadiths
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Sorry.....I know that I will be asking old questions but I am new here so it will take time find all answers
Can you link me to a thread where you have discussed the verses of Quran like the following
480 He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
465 But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you, judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.
3132 And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.
331 Say, "If you should love Allah , then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
2463 Do not make calling of the Messenger among yourselves as the call of one of you to another. Already Allah knows those of you who slip away, concealed by others. So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment.
332 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.
3336 It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
2451 The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.
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Sorry.....I know that I will be asking old questions but I am new here so it will take time find all answers
Can you link me to a thread where you have discussed the verses of Quran like the following
480 He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.
465 But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you, judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.
3132 And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.
331 Say, "If you should love Allah , then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
2463 Do not make calling of the Messenger among yourselves as the call of one of you to another. Already Allah knows those of you who slip away, concealed by others. So let those beware who dissent from the Prophet's order, lest fitnah strike them or a painful punishment.
332 Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.
3336 It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
2451 The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.
Since we believe in the Quran we also believe in the above quoted verses from you. And indeed we try to follow all the messengers - by following the Quran. Take eventually a look at this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603838.msg305871#new
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The link you provided is not discussing the verses i quoted.
Since we believe in the Quran we also believe in the above quoted verses from you. And indeed we try to follow all the messengers - by following the Quran. Take eventually a look at this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603838.msg305871#new
From Quran only point of view I have a confusion in these verses. Quran is word of Allah . By following Quran we Obey Allah and judge by the rules of Allah. But the verses are ordering us to follow another authority that is the Messenger. Now it do not say "follow all messengers". If you follow all messengers than you must follow the commandments of God at the time of Moses. Allah commanded people of Moses to kill themselves, will you follow that ?
The Messenger here is referring to the one to whom Quran was revealed. If Quran is sufficient then there should not be any verse saying "Obey the messenger" or "if you obey the messenger you obeyed Allah". Please explain how can I obey the Messenger with only Quran ?
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The link you provided is not discussing the verses i quoted.
From Quran only point of view I have a confusion in these verses. Quran is word of Allah . By following Quran we Obey Allah and judge by the rules of Allah. But the verses are ordering us to follow another authority that is the Messenger. Now it do not say "follow all messengers". If you follow all messengers than you must follow the commandments of God at the time of Moses. Allah commanded people of Moses to kill themselves, will you follow that ?
The Messenger here is referring to the one to whom Quran was revealed. If Quran is sufficient then there should not be any verse saying "Obey the messenger" or "if you obey the messenger you obeyed Allah". Please explain how can I obey the Messenger with only Quran ?
You are talking about god and messenger as they have two different wills. No, following messenger is the same as following god, that is why you follow god by following Quran which was brought by the messenger . And by following one messenger you have followed all messengers since they all brought the same message and since we don't distinguish between any of them.
The messenger brought Quran that is why you follow him when you follow Quran and since it's god who gave him Quran, you are obeying god as well.It's like if your father ask you to obey you mother, and If you obey her you have obeyed your father as well since its him who asked you to obey her. Or when you obey your teacher you have obeyed the principle of the school as well, or if you obey the police you have obeyed the law of the country as well
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It's like if your father ask you to obey you mother, and If you obey her you have obeyed your father as well since its him who asked you to obey her. Or when you obey your teacher you have obeyed the principle of the school as well, or if you obey the police you have obeyed the law of the country as well
If my father give me some instructions in which it is mentioned "Obey me and obey your mother". How can I obey my mother ? There has to be a description that how I have to obey my mother . If it means that following instructions of my father is sufficient than there is no need for "Obey your mother" statement, if there is nothing outside those instructions I have to follow.
Coming to your example of police. Law of country states "Obey the police", you are right if I obey the police I obey the law of country as well. But what exactly does it means to "Obey the police" ? For example there is nothing in law which states that "You should stop for snap checking when policemen asks you to do so". Now at night some policemen try to stop me. My law states "Obey the police" , so I have to stop. But the law do not state such thing so I don't have to stop. If I stop it means this action of mine is based on some outside source than the "original law of country".
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If my father give me some instructions in which it is mentioned "Obey me and obey your mother". How can I obey my mother ? There has to be a description that how I have to obey my mother . If it means that following instructions of my father is sufficient than there is no need for "Obey your mother" statement, if there is nothing outside those instructions I have to follow.
Coming to your example of police. Law of country states "Obey the police", you are right if I obey the police I obey the law of country as well. But what exactly does it means to "Obey the police" ? For example there is nothing in law which states that "You should stop for snap checking when policemen asks you to do so". Now at night some policemen try to stop me. My law states "Obey the police" , so I have to stop. But the law do not state such thing so I don't have to stop. If I stop it means this action of mine is based on some outside source than the "original law of country".
Messenger means someone with a message. Here it's obvious it's a message from god. The messenger gives you the message, you obey him/her/it by believing in what he says. The message is from god. Thus you follow both.
Quran is also in that sense, a messenger.
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Messenger means someone with a message. Here it's obvious it's a message from god. The messenger gives you the message, you obey him/her/it by believing in what he says. The message is from god. Thus you follow both.
Quran is also in that sense, a messenger.
1400 years ago this statement seems ok as Messenger was among the people. But now when I am reading Quran , it asks me to "Obey the Messenger". I do not have any statement of Messenger in Quran so how I can obey him with Quran alone ?
If you are just a messenger between abc and xyz, delivering the orders of abc to xyz. How the statement "Obey abc and Maha" makes sense in the instructions ? Best statement can be "what Maha gives you from abc take it" .
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If police ask you to stop your car you do it. This you have obeyed both police and the law. The messenger ask you to believe in Quran and you do it. Thus you have obeyed in both the messenger and god.
You are making my point exactly. Stopping me for snap checking is the order of police , it is not mentioned in the law. It is clear that when law has asked me to obey the police, then police have their own requirements . I have now two sources to obey , one instructions of law and second instructions of police. If I have to obey "instructions of law" 100% then i have to obey the police as well , but I cannot say that "xyz orders of police are not mentioned in law so I don't have to obey them".
Allah asked me to believe in Quran , not the messenger. Messenger is just a man in between , how can I obey the Messenger when the instructions are from Allah.
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1400 years ago this statement seems ok as Messenger was among the people. But now when I am reading Quran , it asks me to "Obey the Messenger". I do not have any statement of Messenger in Quran so how I can obey him with Quran alone ?
If you are just a messenger between abc and xyz, delivering the orders of abc to xyz. How the statement "Obey abc and Maha" makes sense in the instructions ? Best statement can be "what Maha gives you from abc take it" .
Everything written in the Quran is from the messenger. So what do you
Mean by that you don't have any statement from the messenger ? Isn't Quran itself also a messenger ? Who bought the Quran ? It was the messenger . Do you know what messenger means ?? Messenger is someone with a message (from god). You cannot separate the two from each other since you always needs a messenger to know gods will. -
Allah asked me to believe in Quran , not the messenger. Messenger is just a man in between , how can I obey the Messenger when the instructions are from Allah.
Read the verses you yourself quoted. God in fact asked you to believe in the messenger . The instructions are from Allah, the messenger ask you to take the instructions that's how you obey him.
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Everything written in the Quran is from the messenger. So what do you
Mean by that you don't have any statement from the messenger ? Isn't Quran itself also a messenger ? Who bought the Quran ? It was the messenger . Do you know what messenger means ?? Messenger is someone with a message (from god). You cannot separate the two from each other since you always needs a messenger to know gods will.You didn't get my point. Lets say I give you a law of mine and ask you to deliver it to the people , if I want people to follow ONLY what is written in the law that i gave you , then I don't have to mention "Obey rameez and obey Maha". If such statement appears in the law it is clear that you are also an authority and people have obey you along with my instructions and following my instructions alone is not what I want from people.
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You are making my point exactly. Stopping me for snap checking is the order of police , it is not mentioned in the law. It is clear that when law has asked me to obey the police, then police have their own requirements . I have now two sources to obey , one instructions of law and second instructions of police. If I have to obey "instructions of law" 100% then i have to obey the police as well , but I cannot say that "xyz orders of police are not mentioned in law so I don't have to obey them".
Allah asked me to believe in Quran , not the messenger. Messenger is just a man in between , how can I obey the Messenger when the instructions are from Allah.
You obviously didn't get the point. Police don't have a separate law or instructions. Police is just following the law and ask you to do it as well. This you all follow the law. Hence you only have one source which is the law of the country .
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You didn't get my point. Lets say I give you a law of mine and ask you to deliver it to the people , if I want people to follow ONLY what is written in the law that i gave you , then I don't have to mention "Obey rameez and obey Maha". If such statement appears in the law it is clear that you are also an authority and people have obey you along with my instructions and following my instructions alone is not what I want from people.
But how I am going to the deliver if they don't believe That I have bought a law from you ? What about the law isn't that a messenger as well?
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Read the verses you yourself quoted. God in fact asked you to believe in the messenger . The instructions are from Allah, the messenger ask you to take the instructions that's how you obey him.
Allah asked me to "believe and obey" . Obeying is very different , it means I have to obey what Messenger said . If two authorities are mentioned to obey than these two authorities are separate. Quran was revealed by Allah not the messenger. It clearly means there is something outside the Quran given by Messenger that I have to obey . Else the statement "Obey Allah" is sufficient because everyone knows following Quran is to Obey Allah.
You obviously didn't get the point. Police don't have a separate law or instructions. Police is just following the law and ask you to do it as well. This you all follow the law. Hence you only have one source which is the law of the country .
Police follows the law but have their own laws too which are in harmony with the law of state and sanctioned by the law of state. This is what I am saying that statements of Muhammad(PBUH) , are his words or deeds but sanctioned by Allah and are not against Quran. Muhammad(PBUH) was the authority that is why it is mentioned in Quran so many times to Obey the Messenger. Quran is not the word of Messenger so to obey Him I need a different source that are Hadiths.
But how I am going to the deliver if they don't believe That I have bought a law from you ? What about the law isn't that a messenger as well?
Obviously believing in you is different thing but Obeying you is different and if I say "Obey Maha" than it means that what you say outside my instructions must be followed too.
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The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering
1- Obeying the messenger
2- The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message1 + 2 = we must obey the message he delivered.
"Say What thing is "Akbar Shahada" (greatest testimony)? Say God is a Witness between me and you; this Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (Balagha)" 619
So the messenger delivered Quran, everything in the Quran is said by the
Messenger. Thus the instructions given in the quran are from the messenger who got it from god. So no, you still have one source.You cannot follow Allah without a messenger .
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Obviously believing in you is different thing but Obeying you is different and if I say "Obey Maha" than it means that what you say outside my instructions must be followed too.
You don't say "maha" you say "the one who gives my instructions. And you say "obey her when she is giving my instructions" which means it something inside your instructions.
Similar the word messenger is used . We only obey it/him/her when the message of god is given.
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The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering
1- Obeying the messenger
2- The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message1 + 2 = we must obey the message he delivered.
"Say What thing is "Akbar Shahada" (greatest testimony)? Say God is a Witness between me and you; this Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (Balagha)" 619
So the messenger delivered Quran, everything in the Quran is said by the
Messenger. Thus the instructions given in the quran are from the messenger who got it from god. So no, you still have one source.If someone bring a message of God to me and I refuse to accept it , it doesn't mean I am disobeying the messenger or if i follow the message so I am obeying the messenger. By following just that message I am obeying the source of message that is God. In quran it is clearly mentioned that Beside God I have to obey the Messenger which is a separate authority. Believing in Messenger is a totally different thing. Today If you preach Islam to someone and ask them to follow it, so it means if they do so they are "obeying you" as well .
Another thing, job of Messenger was not to deliver the message , but to explain it as well.
1644 (Pickthall) With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
Where is the explanation that Messenger gave as part of his job ?
Quran says 683 And indeed, you are of a great moral character.
How can I know this is true unless I have information for his character ?
You don't say "maha" you say "the one who gives my instructions. And you say "obey her when she is giving my instructions" which means it something inside your instructions.
Similar the word messenger is used . We only obey it/him/her when the message of god is given.
If Maha is giving my message it means "Obey Maha" . No , it is not mentioned that "Obey the messenger when he is delivering the message". It is mentioned "Obey the Messenger" or "Prophet" . If he is giving me the message of God how can obeying Messenger means Obeying God. Messengers are not authorities that are to be obeyed in normal cases.