Why do you reject hadiths
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1400 years ago this statement seems ok as Messenger was among the people. But now when I am reading Quran , it asks me to "Obey the Messenger". I do not have any statement of Messenger in Quran so how I can obey him with Quran alone ?
If you are just a messenger between abc and xyz, delivering the orders of abc to xyz. How the statement "Obey abc and Maha" makes sense in the instructions ? Best statement can be "what Maha gives you from abc take it" .
Everything written in the Quran is from the messenger. So what do you
Mean by that you don't have any statement from the messenger ? Isn't Quran itself also a messenger ? Who bought the Quran ? It was the messenger . Do you know what messenger means ?? Messenger is someone with a message (from god). You cannot separate the two from each other since you always needs a messenger to know gods will. -
Allah asked me to believe in Quran , not the messenger. Messenger is just a man in between , how can I obey the Messenger when the instructions are from Allah.
Read the verses you yourself quoted. God in fact asked you to believe in the messenger . The instructions are from Allah, the messenger ask you to take the instructions that's how you obey him.
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Everything written in the Quran is from the messenger. So what do you
Mean by that you don't have any statement from the messenger ? Isn't Quran itself also a messenger ? Who bought the Quran ? It was the messenger . Do you know what messenger means ?? Messenger is someone with a message (from god). You cannot separate the two from each other since you always needs a messenger to know gods will.You didn't get my point. Lets say I give you a law of mine and ask you to deliver it to the people , if I want people to follow ONLY what is written in the law that i gave you , then I don't have to mention "Obey rameez and obey Maha". If such statement appears in the law it is clear that you are also an authority and people have obey you along with my instructions and following my instructions alone is not what I want from people.
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You are making my point exactly. Stopping me for snap checking is the order of police , it is not mentioned in the law. It is clear that when law has asked me to obey the police, then police have their own requirements . I have now two sources to obey , one instructions of law and second instructions of police. If I have to obey "instructions of law" 100% then i have to obey the police as well , but I cannot say that "xyz orders of police are not mentioned in law so I don't have to obey them".
Allah asked me to believe in Quran , not the messenger. Messenger is just a man in between , how can I obey the Messenger when the instructions are from Allah.
You obviously didn't get the point. Police don't have a separate law or instructions. Police is just following the law and ask you to do it as well. This you all follow the law. Hence you only have one source which is the law of the country .
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You didn't get my point. Lets say I give you a law of mine and ask you to deliver it to the people , if I want people to follow ONLY what is written in the law that i gave you , then I don't have to mention "Obey rameez and obey Maha". If such statement appears in the law it is clear that you are also an authority and people have obey you along with my instructions and following my instructions alone is not what I want from people.
But how I am going to the deliver if they don't believe That I have bought a law from you ? What about the law isn't that a messenger as well?
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Read the verses you yourself quoted. God in fact asked you to believe in the messenger . The instructions are from Allah, the messenger ask you to take the instructions that's how you obey him.
Allah asked me to "believe and obey" . Obeying is very different , it means I have to obey what Messenger said . If two authorities are mentioned to obey than these two authorities are separate. Quran was revealed by Allah not the messenger. It clearly means there is something outside the Quran given by Messenger that I have to obey . Else the statement "Obey Allah" is sufficient because everyone knows following Quran is to Obey Allah.
You obviously didn't get the point. Police don't have a separate law or instructions. Police is just following the law and ask you to do it as well. This you all follow the law. Hence you only have one source which is the law of the country .
Police follows the law but have their own laws too which are in harmony with the law of state and sanctioned by the law of state. This is what I am saying that statements of Muhammad(PBUH) , are his words or deeds but sanctioned by Allah and are not against Quran. Muhammad(PBUH) was the authority that is why it is mentioned in Quran so many times to Obey the Messenger. Quran is not the word of Messenger so to obey Him I need a different source that are Hadiths.
But how I am going to the deliver if they don't believe That I have bought a law from you ? What about the law isn't that a messenger as well?
Obviously believing in you is different thing but Obeying you is different and if I say "Obey Maha" than it means that what you say outside my instructions must be followed too.
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The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering
1- Obeying the messenger
2- The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message1 + 2 = we must obey the message he delivered.
"Say What thing is "Akbar Shahada" (greatest testimony)? Say God is a Witness between me and you; this Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (Balagha)" 619
So the messenger delivered Quran, everything in the Quran is said by the
Messenger. Thus the instructions given in the quran are from the messenger who got it from god. So no, you still have one source.You cannot follow Allah without a messenger .
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Obviously believing in you is different thing but Obeying you is different and if I say "Obey Maha" than it means that what you say outside my instructions must be followed too.
You don't say "maha" you say "the one who gives my instructions. And you say "obey her when she is giving my instructions" which means it something inside your instructions.
Similar the word messenger is used . We only obey it/him/her when the message of god is given.
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The word Messenger is derived from the word Message. A Messenger delivers a Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger would thus mean to obey the message he is delivering
1- Obeying the messenger
2- The sole duty of the messenger was to deliver the message1 + 2 = we must obey the message he delivered.
"Say What thing is "Akbar Shahada" (greatest testimony)? Say God is a Witness between me and you; this Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (Balagha)" 619
So the messenger delivered Quran, everything in the Quran is said by the
Messenger. Thus the instructions given in the quran are from the messenger who got it from god. So no, you still have one source.If someone bring a message of God to me and I refuse to accept it , it doesn't mean I am disobeying the messenger or if i follow the message so I am obeying the messenger. By following just that message I am obeying the source of message that is God. In quran it is clearly mentioned that Beside God I have to obey the Messenger which is a separate authority. Believing in Messenger is a totally different thing. Today If you preach Islam to someone and ask them to follow it, so it means if they do so they are "obeying you" as well .
Another thing, job of Messenger was not to deliver the message , but to explain it as well.
1644 (Pickthall) With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
Where is the explanation that Messenger gave as part of his job ?
Quran says 683 And indeed, you are of a great moral character.
How can I know this is true unless I have information for his character ?
You don't say "maha" you say "the one who gives my instructions. And you say "obey her when she is giving my instructions" which means it something inside your instructions.
Similar the word messenger is used . We only obey it/him/her when the message of god is given.
If Maha is giving my message it means "Obey Maha" . No , it is not mentioned that "Obey the messenger when he is delivering the message". It is mentioned "Obey the Messenger" or "Prophet" . If he is giving me the message of God how can obeying Messenger means Obeying God. Messengers are not authorities that are to be obeyed in normal cases.
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3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.
How do you explain this ? If I have hope in Allah and the Last Day , from where do I get this "excellent pattern" ?
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3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.
How do you explain this ? If I have hope in Allah and the Last Day , from where do I get this "excellent pattern" ?
Lots of sources claiming to be from the Messenger, but none as authentic as the Qur'an. So we follow the Qur'an and do not follow conjecture. There might be some truths within the hadith literature, but it's near impossible to separate the truth from fabrications there.
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Peace rameez.
Let us look at it from the view of the messenger
He was told not to do anything but deliver the message, not even explain it. ( GOD will say it, put it into a Qoran, we are to only follow such a Qoran, GOD explains it to the "sincere".
He was also told " not to make up any other words" otherwise he would be punished.
You must be familiar with the verses. Otherwise I will forward them to you.
His sole duty was to deliver the message.
Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD can only mean one thing obeying the message from GOD.
Peace.
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Lots of sources claiming to be from the Messenger, but none as authentic as the Qur'an.
So we follow the Qur'an and do not follow conjecture. There might be some truths within the hadith literature, but it's near impossible to separate the truth from fabrications there.That is why we have science of hadiths that separate fabrications from truth.
3334 And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted .
How do you explain "wisdom" in this verse? It is mentioned separately from "verses of Allah" , it means it is something other than "verses of Allah"
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If someone bring a message of God to me and I refuse to accept it , it doesn't mean I am disobeying the messenger or if i follow the message so I am obeying the messenger
Here we disagree. If you disobey to follow the message of god you are also disobeying the messenger becaus he told you to obey the message as well. The messenger will not go against the message. And of course you follow the messenger by following his message that is why he is called a ME-SSENG-ER. rotfl
. In quran it is clearly mentioned that Beside God I have to obey the Messenge
No, it doesn't says "beside" it says with obeying go comes obeying the messenger since he is the one who tells you gods message
. Today If you preach Islam to someone and ask them to follow it, so it means if they do so they are "obeying you" as well .
Yes they are since you ask them to follow Islam. Otherwise they would follow a human, which is shirk.
. Another thing, job of Messenger was not to deliver the message , but to explain it as well.
1644 (Pickthall) With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
Hehe. Where do you see the word "messenger " in the above verse you just quoted ?
. If Maha is giving my message it means "Obey Maha" . No , it is not mentioned that "Obey the messenger when he is delivering the message". It is mentioned "Obey the Messenger" or "Prophet" . If he is giving me the message of God how can obeying Messenger means Obeying God. Messengers are not authorities that are to be obeyed in normal cases.
Frankly I don't understand the above. A messenger is called a messenger because he gives a message. Following a messanger means following him when he gives the message. That is why he is called messenger and not muhammed .
. 3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.
How do you explain this ? If I have hope in Allah and the Last Day , from where do I get this "excellent pattern" ?
I dont need to look at the rapes, torture and genocides committed by someone called Mohammed in Hadith to know what An "excellent" pattern is.
I already know what an excellent pattern is, and every messenger has an excellent pattern. If you want to test someone is a messenger or not, take a look at how excellent pattern he is, like the verse quoted . It was actually this verse which made me leave sunnism because I realized that the person in Hadith cannot be a messenger since he doesn't got an excellent pattern. Thank you god for. Thank you god for clarifying things to me by verses of Quran . And why don't you recogNize that Quran is also a messenger ?
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Peace rameez.
Let us look at it from the view of the messenger
He was told not to do anything but deliver the message, not even explain it. ( GOD will say it, put it into a Qoran, we are to only follow such a Qoran, GOD explains it to the "sincere".
1644 And we have sent down unto Thee the Message; that Thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them
He was also told " not to make up any other words" otherwise he would be punished.
Yes correct, all that He established and ordered was inspired by God.
533 Nor does he speak from inclination.You must be familiar with the verses. Otherwise I will forward them to you.
His sole duty was to deliver the message.
Check 1644 above
Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD can only mean one thing obeying the message from GOD.
I don't agree and it is not convincing enough to say that "it only mean one thing" . Its just you don't want to follow hadiths you made up this interpretation , which is clearly not in harmony with the verse. At least in one place the Quran must have said that if you follow Quran you are obeying both Allah and Messenger. Nowhere quran says anything like that, instead every time it says "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" . It must have mentioned "Obey Allah" only , coz if message is followed than Messenger is obeyed according to you and in turn Allah is obeyed. So why to mention Allah and Messenger separately.
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That is why we have science of hadiths that separate fabrications from truth.
3334 And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted .
How do you explain "wisdom" in this verse? It is mentioned separately from "verses of Allah" , it means it is something other than "verses of Allah"
"Wisdom" is just wisdom. It might be the so-called hadith, it can be other forms of wisdom (science, philosophy, cultural lores, etc). The Arabic word used is hikmah, not hadith or sunnah. I don't interpret it as exclusively referring to hadith.
The science of hadith is basically trusting the truth claims of fallible men with no objective means of verification (preserved written records, recordings, live witnesses). Even the scholars cannot agree among themselves. And since we're lacking a time machine, I don't think there can be "The One True & 100% Authentic Collection of Sayings & Deeds of the Messenger". The chance to create such a book had run out. Today, the science of hadith still doesn't help us separate the truth from falsehood. Sure, a lot of the junk had been filtered, but among what we have today we still have falsehoods mixed with truth.
Even in the sahih collections sometimes you can find weak, possibly false ones still included by the collectors. Go check for yourself.
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Here we disagree. If you disobey to follow the message of god you are also disobeying the messenger becaus he told you to obey the message as well. The messenger will not go against the message. And of course you follow the messenger by following his message that is why he is called a ME-SSENG-ER. rotfl
IF i follow the message of God I am obeying God not the messenger. Messenger in literal sense means someone who brings a message ,he is not to be obeyed but believed. IF you bring a message from someone and I reject the message it doesn't mean I disobeyed you but it means I disbelieved in you. You are not getting a simple concept and instead you are ignoring verses of Quran and giving your own explanation. This is one of the strange things I have heard that if I accept a message of anyone through a messenger I am obeying the Messenger.
No, it doesn't says "beside" it says with obeying go comes obeying the messenger since he is the one who tells you gods message
When Allah and the Messenger are mentioned separately , it clearly gives an idea that they "both" are separate and obeyed .
For example take this verse
1641 And those who emigrated for Allah after they had been wronged - We will surely settle them in this world in a good place; but the reward of the Hereafter is greater, if only they could know.
Why it is not mentioned "Messenger" after Allah . Because according to your logic emigrating for Messenger will be emigrating for Allah ?
Hehe. Where do you see the word "messenger " in the above verse you just quoted ?
Read the preceding verse
1643 (Pickthall) And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -Frankly I don't understand the above. A messenger is called a messenger because he gives a message. Following a messanger means following him when he gives the message. That is why he is called messenger and not muhammed .
Wrong. Messengers are not to be followed if they have nothing outside the Message. Instead they are to be believed or accepted. But not followed/obeyed unless they have something outside that Message.
I dont need to look at the rapes, torture and genocides committed by someone called Mohammed in Hadith to know what An "excellent" pattern is.
I already know what an excellent pattern is, and every messenger has an excellent pattern. If you want to test someone is a messenger or not, take a look at how excellent pattern he is, like the verse quoted . It was actually this verse which made me leave sunnism because I realized that the person in Hadith cannot be a messenger since he doesn't got an excellent pattern. Thank you god for. Thank you god for clarifying things to me by verses of Quran . And why don't you recogNize that Quran is also a messenger ?
That is your own personal judgement. I am simply asking to provide me the excellent pattern of Messenger from Quran so I can learn it.
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"Wisdom" is just wisdom. It might be the so-called hadith, it can be other forms of wisdom (science, philosophy, cultural lores, etc). The Arabic word used is hikmah, not hadith or sunnah. I don't interpret it as exclusively referring to hadith.
I didn't say they are Hadiths. But there is something outside the Quran that is recited/discussed and wives of Prophet are being told about them ? Allah will tell them about science or cultural lores ?
The science of hadith is basically trusting the truth claims of fallible men with no objective means of verification (preserved written records, recordings, live witnesses). Even the scholars cannot agree among themselves. And since we're lacking a time machine, I don't think there can be "The One True & 100% Authentic Collection of Sayings & Deeds of the Messenger". The chance to create such a book had run out. Today, the science of hadith still doesn't help us separate the truth from falsehood. Sure, a lot of the junk had been filtered, but among what we have today we still have falsehoods mixed with truth.
Even in the sahih collections sometimes you can find weak, possibly false ones still included by the collectors. Go check for yourself.
Yes and more than 90% Muslims and those who spent their lives studying these things are so stupid that they are following conjecture and Allah allowed such a massive corruption in his last and final religion . And majority of the muslims are misguided.
Can you give any example of weak and false hadiths from which some ruling is derived in sunni Islam and is followed by jamhoor ?
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Can you give any example of weak and false hadiths from which some ruling is derived in sunni Islam and is followed by jamhoor ?
Hadith of A'isha, collected by Abu Dawud, about the limits of female aurat (face and hands). Abu Dawud himself noted that the hadith is mursal (chain of narrators broken), therefore weak.
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Hadith of A'isha, collected by Abu Dawud, about the limits of female aurat (face and hands). Abu Dawud himself noted that the hadith is mursal (chain of narrators broken), therefore weak.
Can you give reference of hadith and the claim that it is weak ? I am not saying that you are wrong , but I need reference to check it up.