Why do you reject hadiths
-
If someone bring a message of God to me and I refuse to accept it , it doesn't mean I am disobeying the messenger or if i follow the message so I am obeying the messenger
Here we disagree. If you disobey to follow the message of god you are also disobeying the messenger becaus he told you to obey the message as well. The messenger will not go against the message. And of course you follow the messenger by following his message that is why he is called a ME-SSENG-ER. rotfl
. In quran it is clearly mentioned that Beside God I have to obey the Messenge
No, it doesn't says "beside" it says with obeying go comes obeying the messenger since he is the one who tells you gods message
. Today If you preach Islam to someone and ask them to follow it, so it means if they do so they are "obeying you" as well .
Yes they are since you ask them to follow Islam. Otherwise they would follow a human, which is shirk.
. Another thing, job of Messenger was not to deliver the message , but to explain it as well.
1644 (Pickthall) With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
Hehe. Where do you see the word "messenger " in the above verse you just quoted ?
. If Maha is giving my message it means "Obey Maha" . No , it is not mentioned that "Obey the messenger when he is delivering the message". It is mentioned "Obey the Messenger" or "Prophet" . If he is giving me the message of God how can obeying Messenger means Obeying God. Messengers are not authorities that are to be obeyed in normal cases.
Frankly I don't understand the above. A messenger is called a messenger because he gives a message. Following a messanger means following him when he gives the message. That is why he is called messenger and not muhammed .
. 3321 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah often.
How do you explain this ? If I have hope in Allah and the Last Day , from where do I get this "excellent pattern" ?
I dont need to look at the rapes, torture and genocides committed by someone called Mohammed in Hadith to know what An "excellent" pattern is.
I already know what an excellent pattern is, and every messenger has an excellent pattern. If you want to test someone is a messenger or not, take a look at how excellent pattern he is, like the verse quoted . It was actually this verse which made me leave sunnism because I realized that the person in Hadith cannot be a messenger since he doesn't got an excellent pattern. Thank you god for. Thank you god for clarifying things to me by verses of Quran . And why don't you recogNize that Quran is also a messenger ?
-
Peace rameez.
Let us look at it from the view of the messenger
He was told not to do anything but deliver the message, not even explain it. ( GOD will say it, put it into a Qoran, we are to only follow such a Qoran, GOD explains it to the "sincere".
1644 And we have sent down unto Thee the Message; that Thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them
He was also told " not to make up any other words" otherwise he would be punished.
Yes correct, all that He established and ordered was inspired by God.
533 Nor does he speak from inclination.You must be familiar with the verses. Otherwise I will forward them to you.
His sole duty was to deliver the message.
Check 1644 above
Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed GOD can only mean one thing obeying the message from GOD.
I don't agree and it is not convincing enough to say that "it only mean one thing" . Its just you don't want to follow hadiths you made up this interpretation , which is clearly not in harmony with the verse. At least in one place the Quran must have said that if you follow Quran you are obeying both Allah and Messenger. Nowhere quran says anything like that, instead every time it says "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" . It must have mentioned "Obey Allah" only , coz if message is followed than Messenger is obeyed according to you and in turn Allah is obeyed. So why to mention Allah and Messenger separately.
-
That is why we have science of hadiths that separate fabrications from truth.
3334 And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted .
How do you explain "wisdom" in this verse? It is mentioned separately from "verses of Allah" , it means it is something other than "verses of Allah"
"Wisdom" is just wisdom. It might be the so-called hadith, it can be other forms of wisdom (science, philosophy, cultural lores, etc). The Arabic word used is hikmah, not hadith or sunnah. I don't interpret it as exclusively referring to hadith.
The science of hadith is basically trusting the truth claims of fallible men with no objective means of verification (preserved written records, recordings, live witnesses). Even the scholars cannot agree among themselves. And since we're lacking a time machine, I don't think there can be "The One True & 100% Authentic Collection of Sayings & Deeds of the Messenger". The chance to create such a book had run out. Today, the science of hadith still doesn't help us separate the truth from falsehood. Sure, a lot of the junk had been filtered, but among what we have today we still have falsehoods mixed with truth.
Even in the sahih collections sometimes you can find weak, possibly false ones still included by the collectors. Go check for yourself.
-
Here we disagree. If you disobey to follow the message of god you are also disobeying the messenger becaus he told you to obey the message as well. The messenger will not go against the message. And of course you follow the messenger by following his message that is why he is called a ME-SSENG-ER. rotfl
IF i follow the message of God I am obeying God not the messenger. Messenger in literal sense means someone who brings a message ,he is not to be obeyed but believed. IF you bring a message from someone and I reject the message it doesn't mean I disobeyed you but it means I disbelieved in you. You are not getting a simple concept and instead you are ignoring verses of Quran and giving your own explanation. This is one of the strange things I have heard that if I accept a message of anyone through a messenger I am obeying the Messenger.
No, it doesn't says "beside" it says with obeying go comes obeying the messenger since he is the one who tells you gods message
When Allah and the Messenger are mentioned separately , it clearly gives an idea that they "both" are separate and obeyed .
For example take this verse
1641 And those who emigrated for Allah after they had been wronged - We will surely settle them in this world in a good place; but the reward of the Hereafter is greater, if only they could know.
Why it is not mentioned "Messenger" after Allah . Because according to your logic emigrating for Messenger will be emigrating for Allah ?
Hehe. Where do you see the word "messenger " in the above verse you just quoted ?
Read the preceding verse
1643 (Pickthall) And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -Frankly I don't understand the above. A messenger is called a messenger because he gives a message. Following a messanger means following him when he gives the message. That is why he is called messenger and not muhammed .
Wrong. Messengers are not to be followed if they have nothing outside the Message. Instead they are to be believed or accepted. But not followed/obeyed unless they have something outside that Message.
I dont need to look at the rapes, torture and genocides committed by someone called Mohammed in Hadith to know what An "excellent" pattern is.
I already know what an excellent pattern is, and every messenger has an excellent pattern. If you want to test someone is a messenger or not, take a look at how excellent pattern he is, like the verse quoted . It was actually this verse which made me leave sunnism because I realized that the person in Hadith cannot be a messenger since he doesn't got an excellent pattern. Thank you god for. Thank you god for clarifying things to me by verses of Quran . And why don't you recogNize that Quran is also a messenger ?
That is your own personal judgement. I am simply asking to provide me the excellent pattern of Messenger from Quran so I can learn it.
-
"Wisdom" is just wisdom. It might be the so-called hadith, it can be other forms of wisdom (science, philosophy, cultural lores, etc). The Arabic word used is hikmah, not hadith or sunnah. I don't interpret it as exclusively referring to hadith.
I didn't say they are Hadiths. But there is something outside the Quran that is recited/discussed and wives of Prophet are being told about them ? Allah will tell them about science or cultural lores ?
The science of hadith is basically trusting the truth claims of fallible men with no objective means of verification (preserved written records, recordings, live witnesses). Even the scholars cannot agree among themselves. And since we're lacking a time machine, I don't think there can be "The One True & 100% Authentic Collection of Sayings & Deeds of the Messenger". The chance to create such a book had run out. Today, the science of hadith still doesn't help us separate the truth from falsehood. Sure, a lot of the junk had been filtered, but among what we have today we still have falsehoods mixed with truth.
Even in the sahih collections sometimes you can find weak, possibly false ones still included by the collectors. Go check for yourself.
Yes and more than 90% Muslims and those who spent their lives studying these things are so stupid that they are following conjecture and Allah allowed such a massive corruption in his last and final religion . And majority of the muslims are misguided.
Can you give any example of weak and false hadiths from which some ruling is derived in sunni Islam and is followed by jamhoor ?
-
Can you give any example of weak and false hadiths from which some ruling is derived in sunni Islam and is followed by jamhoor ?
Hadith of A'isha, collected by Abu Dawud, about the limits of female aurat (face and hands). Abu Dawud himself noted that the hadith is mursal (chain of narrators broken), therefore weak.
-
Hadith of A'isha, collected by Abu Dawud, about the limits of female aurat (face and hands). Abu Dawud himself noted that the hadith is mursal (chain of narrators broken), therefore weak.
Can you give reference of hadith and the claim that it is weak ? I am not saying that you are wrong , but I need reference to check it up.
-
@Maha and others.
I think we should stop this discussion as from both sides enough of evidence is provided. Otherwise it will turn out into "YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT" and will end up in abusing or out of topic comments . It was nice discussing this issue with you guys and a new experience to me.
@Andya
Do post the reference for the hadith and claim of it being weak , so I can refer to some authentic people of knowledge.
Thanks.
-
Can you give reference of hadith and the claim that it is weak ? I am not saying that you are wrong , but I need reference to check it up.
http//www.islamicity.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=13792
The hadeeth mentioned in the question was narrated by Abu Dawood (4104) from al-Waleed from Sa?eed ibn Basheer from Qataadah from Khaalid ibn Durayk from ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), that Asma? bint Abi Bakr entered upon the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) wearing a thin dress. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned away from her and said, ?O Asma?, when a woman reaches the age of puberty, nothing should be seen of her except this and this? ? and he pointed to his face and hands.
Abu Dawood said This is mursal; Khaalid ibn Durayk did not meet ?Aa?ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).
This hadeeth is da?eef (weak) and is not fit to be used as evidence. The reasons why it is da?eef are as follows
1 ? Its isnaad is interrupted, as was stated by Imam Abu Dawood (may Allaah have mercy on him) when he said, ?This is mursal; Khaalid ibn Durayk did not meet ?Aa?ishah.?
2 ? Its isnaad includes Sa?eed ibn Basheer al-Azdi (or it was said al-Basri) Abu ?Abd al-Rahmaan. Some scholars of hadeeth regarded him as thiqah (trustworthy), but Ahmad, Ibn Ma?een, Ibn al-Madeeni, al-Nasaa?i, al-Haakim and Abu Dawood regarded him as da?eef. (weak).
Muhammad ibn ?Abd-Allaah ibn Numayr said of him His hadeeth is to be rejected and he does not amount to anything, and he is not strong in hadeeth. He narrated munkar reports from Qataadah.
Ibn Hibbaan said of him He has a bad memory and makes grievous mistakes.
Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said of him (he is) da?eef.
3 ? Its isnaad includes Qataadah who is mudallis (i.e., gives false impressions concerning the narration of the hadeeth) and did not clearly state that he heard the hadeeth from another. It also includes al-Waleed ibn Muslim of whom al-Haafiz said (he is) trustworthy but he was also mudallis and did not clearly state that he heard the hadeeth from another.
Reference with actual text (translation in Indonesian, sorry, because it is my native language)
http//125.164.221.44/hadisonline/hadis9/kitab_open.php?imam=abudaud&nohdt=3580 -
http//www.islamicity.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=13792
You are correct about hadith , but you misunderstood that ruling of niqab is derived from this hadith alone. And niqab is not fardh by jamhoor. Those who make it necessary argue using different hadiths and the verse of Quran . You can read multiple views on niqab on following links.
http//islamqa.com/en/ref/21134
http//www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=81&Itemid=146
http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1334&CATE=88
-
Pace rameez.
There is no contradiction in GOD s scripture. This verse should put all the arguments about accepting any other sources that are not from GOD irrelevant
619
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods*( Other sources) beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god( and one source), and I disown your idolatry."*619
GOD then reminds us why?
621 "Who is more evil than one who lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The transgressors never succeed."Peace.
-
Pace rameez.
There is no contradiction in GOD s scripture. This verse should put all the arguments about accepting any other sources that are not from GOD irrelevant
619
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods*( Other sources) beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god( and one source), and I disown your idolatry."*619
GOD then reminds us why?
621 "Who is more evil than one who lies about God, or rejects His revelations? The transgressors never succeed."Peace.
There is no second thought that Quran is from God , but the same Quran asks you several times to Obey the Messenger, which you cannot if you stick only to Quran. This was my point.
Peace,
You requested that you would like us to keep replies short.
Many reject the hadith and the sunna because they are not from God.
Peace O0
No , not many but only very few who started rejecting hadiths recently . Hadith and Sunnah are words and deeds of Prophet that are also from Allah , Prophet didn't say or act anything on his own will about religion instead just like Quran he taught verbally , same is true for his deeds and actions that are recorded using multiple independent and strong narrations. Quran make it very clear that along with Allah you have to obey the Messenger, which clearly implies that there is something outside Quran that you have to follow.
-
Peace rameez,
You quote quran out of context, obey the messenger means, the messenger is speaking
directly to an audience or the message can be verified by the messenger.here's an example
We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed in accordance with GOD's will. Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Never indeed, by your Lord; they are not believers unless they come to you to judge in their disputes, then find no hesitation in their hearts whatsoever in accepting your judgment. They must submit a total submission.
notice in the hadith it is not the messenger speaking but muslim,bukhari,tirmizi, and whoever.
Mere heresay, and heresay is not acceptable in any court of law, and the greatest court (judgement day)will not be based on heresay! Finally I cannot obey the messenger because he is dead, and doesn't speak
to us. Now you can trust those who say he said that he said that she said that...........
I'll stick with God.I hope this is helpful
Peace O0
-
Why do you guys reject hadiths and why do you think that Hadiths are false and fabrications but still followed by more than 90% of muslims for more than 1000 years ?
Why Allah allowed such a massive corruption in his last and final religion ?
Most Muslims are not aware of hadiths. In fact until recently hadiths were rarely available. Its recent availability due to technology has brought us terror and Islamist parties. It also brought about the end of Sufism, which focused very little on hadiths.
-
Peace rameez.
Quote "There is no second thought that Quran is from God "
There is nothing to discuss then. Follow whatever you choose, if you do no believe , without a doubt, that Qoran is the word of GOD.
I reject "hadith" because I have solid proof that Qoran is the preserved word of GOD.
Peace.
-
Peace rameez,
You quote quran out of context, obey the messenger means, the messenger is speaking
directly to an audience or the message can be verified by the messenger.here's an example
We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed in accordance with GOD's will. Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Never indeed, by your Lord; they are not believers unless they come to you to judge in their disputes, then find no hesitation in their hearts whatsoever in accepting your judgment. They must submit a total submission.
notice in the hadith it is not the messenger speaking but muslim,bukhari,tirmizi, and whoever.
Mere heresay, and heresay is not acceptable in any court of law, and the greatest court (judgement day)will not be based on heresay! Finally I cannot obey the messenger because he is dead, and doesn't speak
to us. Now you can trust those who say he said that he said that she said that...........
I'll stick with God.I hope this is helpful
Peace O0
Well its strange when you say that I am quoting it out of context.
for instance take this verse
3164 Certainly did Allah confer favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.
Where is the wisdom which is mentioned separately from Book ? Where it is recorded ? Or it is lost after Messenger taught those people ?
2448 And when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them, at once a party of them turns aside .
The verse clearly says that if I have any problem or matter to judge I should refer to Allah and His Messenger. Now as you said Messenger is dead, how can I follow this verse ? How should I judge by Allah and His Messenger ? Where is the source for judging by Messenger ? or obeying Him ?
3336 It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.
2451 The only statement of the believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.
Are you saying that it is talking to believing man and believing woman of that time ?
Why it says "Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter" ? Why it do not simply says "When Allah or Quran has decided a matter" ? If it was only for that time why it is mentioned in Quran to confuse the majority who follow Hadiths/Sunnah based on these verses ?When you say that You cannot obey the Messenger , it seems like you are saying that Allah mentioned in His revelation to do something that is impossible ?
Peace rameez.
There is nothing to discuss then. Follow whatever you choose, if you do no believe , without a doubt, that Qoran is the word of GOD.
I reject "hadith" because I have solid proof that Qoran is the preserved word of GOD.
Peace.
I am following Quran and Quran orders me to Obey Messenger so I am obeying Messenger using the sources available to me.
You think that sunnis do not agree that Quran is the preserved word of God ? Every sect agree that Quran is preserved and in the form in which it was revealed and nothing has changed in it.What you are doing is called "cherrypicking". You are taking few verses and ignoring the others.
-
Peace Rameez,
Take a look at these links
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Obey_Allah_And_Messenger.htm
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/The_Only_Revelation.htm -
Peace rameez.
I will leave you with my last reply .
7516] Do not move your tongue to hasten it.]
It is we who will collect it into Quran.]
Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.]
Then it is we who will explain it.]I do not see in (751 follow such hadith and sunnah as well
Aso
551] The Most Gracious.]
Teacher of the Quran.]
It does not say and the messenger.God has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.]
For me the best hadith alone will do.( best hadith is sufficient, a fully detailed book!)
456] These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?Finally
6112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.]
This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.]This is " following the messenger
6412] You shall obey God and you shall obey the messenger. If you turn away, then the sole mission of our messenger is to deliver the message.]
Peace and take care. -
Well its strange when you say that I am quoting it out of context.
I am following Quran and Quran orders me to Obey Messenger so I am obeying Messenger using the sources available to me.
You think that sunnis do not agree that Quran is the preserved word of God ? Every sect agree that Quran is preserved and in the form in which it was revealed and nothing has changed in it.What you are doing is called "cherrypicking". You are taking few verses and ignoring the others.
And even you can get hikmah from learning Quran. Without getting hikmah, you are just like a donkey. Hikmah is derived from learning Quran, not another law except Quran. What hadits tell is Prophet Mohammad invent another law beside Quran. So many examples of it.
What do you think about rajam in hadits ? it is hikmah from Quran Surah Nur 241-6?