Isa is the prophet ; Jesus is not
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Can't agree with u there, man.
Not yet D but I'll keep planting seeds D
The Quran clearly says
Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee; nor wast thou (present) with them then when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots. (12.101)
Let me ask you this MQ, if this story is UNSEEN, then how did people SEE IT at that time? D
I agree that it is UNSEEN. I state that it was UNSEEN then and UNSEEN now because we are talking about processes of the MIND(nafs).
The word used for stories is 'anba' which tells us that these stories actually happened.
Yes, they DID happen, they DO happen, and they WILL happen. The God system NEVER changes and people minds will continue to work according to these UNSEEN processes. There were people who gave birth to the WORD(Isa) a long time ago, today , and will tommorrow, but it will reamain UNSEEN, yet verifyable. D
Of course, we don't need to go to history to prove that. Our acting out the sunna of the messengers is enough.
Its not that we don't need to, it is that we CANNOT. The God does not require us to however because we are not to go after that which we have no knowledge. He tells us to seek knowledge so that we can become appreciators(muhammad).
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salam idolfree,
I can tell that my words will have absolutely no impact on you, and that I will be wasting time.. but let me say briefly, you are being a surrealist through and through.
that's a nice try though, to claim you are doing it because you didn't know Isa (as). Because the fact is, you didn't see the wahi come to the Prophet. You did not meet the prophet nor did you see the original manuscript and confirm with your eyes that the Quran we have is indeed the same one in the museum. You never heard the Prophet's voice, never heard or saw the khulifa-rashidoon... have you ever even seen Arabia? Ever seen the pharoah or Egypt?
Note, no one is talking about IGNORING the guidance/lessons in the stories as you imply. WE ALL agree on that, so don't try to throw out that as a red herring...
The question is not about guidance/lessons in the stories. The question is the REJECTION OF REALITY that you are committing.
But there is such a thing called evidence... personal experience is NOT the only form of knowledge. And the other important source of evidence is the Quran... and from the CLEAR ARABIC of the Quran, I have stated the facts. Pure and simple. REALITY... the Quran DOES comment on it. It's foolishness to take the historical records as documented in the Quran and turn them into surreal concepts on the predication that "Well I didn't see it happen." Especially since the meanings you bring out are totally outlandish... to say maryam means mind because nafs is a feminine word is the most bizarre form of logic I have encountered.. in fact it's not even worthy of being referred to as logic.
wassalam
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Peace All,
Isn?t The Nabi simply in English The informer? I don?t see any reference to informed by God in this name.
The message in the Qur'aan for all mankind was not revealed because of the corruption by the liars (kathibun) and ungrateful rejecters (kafirun) from among previous peoples of the message sent to them. They only attempted to corrupt the message which was preserved in the hearts of those committed. They wrote their own book and claimed it was from God. They hid the message.None can change the words of God. The previous revelations were national not universal as is the Qur'aan, thus the reason for the good news.
The traditionalist have not literally translated the Qur'aan, they first perverted the meanings and then translated literally. The Qur'aan says it is clear, apparent, obvious, plain and easy. I suggest that a correct literal translation will not leave any reader deficient.
I agree with drfazl as to the personality called Jesus whose history bears only a passing resemblance to Isa in the histories narrated in the Book.
BTW, is drfazl the same distinguished Dr. Fazlur Rahman, author of such works as ?Islam? (1966)? If so, Sir, I am privileged to have the opportunity to exchange ideas with you. If not, it is still a privilege ) . Thanks
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Salaam Kyle D
Peace be upon you MQ,
Can't agree with u there, man.
Not yet D but I'll keep planting seeds D
Hehe, you're most welcome to. The healthy seeds will sprout healthy trees and bear fruits. You've planted many healthy seeds in the past, I remember.
Let me ask you this MQ, if this story is UNSEEN, then how did people SEE IT at that time? D
I agree that it is UNSEEN. I state that it was UNSEEN then and UNSEEN now because we are talking about processes of the MIND(nafs).Ok, I see what you mean here. All 'ayaat'/signs are 'fil anfus' (in our minds, as you put it) as 41/53 says. However, brother, they're also 'fil afaaq' (in our horizons) like the story of Yusuf which shows us how to climb the structures of power.
Yes, they DID happen, they DO happen, and they WILL happen. The God system NEVER changes and people minds will continue to work according to these UNSEEN processes. There were people who gave birth to the WORD(Isa) a long time ago, today , and will tommorrow, but it will reamain UNSEEN, yet verifyable. D
Yes, agreed. Only I would add, they also happen in reality.
Its not that we don't need to, it is that we CANNOT. The God does not require us to however because we are not to go after that which we have no knowledge. He tells us to seek knowledge so that we can become appreciators(muhammad)
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
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Salaam mquran,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
Never would a human being, whom Allah has blessed with the Scripture, Wisdom and Prophethood, say to people, ?Be servants of me instead of Allah.? Instead he would say, ?Become men of God (rabbaniyyeena) by spreading the knowledge of the Scripture and the teachings you learn there from.? (379)
Peace
Marie -
peace idolfree1,
Related to the statement
The way I inderstand it is that we should not make up things or assumptions about what we don't know. It also tells us that GOD has the ultimate knowledge. So, if GOD tells us that there was a Jesus and that he was born to woman that was not touched by man, we have to accept as such because GOD knows all and GOD says so and we are obligated to believe not only in GOD, but also in what GOD says.Hussein
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Peace be upon you MQ and all,
oh ? I cant find the verse about seeking knowledge to become Muhammad, Kyle. There's only 4 occurences of 'muhammad' and none seem to indicate this.
No, it won't be found so easily, there is a test involved
Marie, my statement does not even come close to implying taking a prophet for worship, in fact, I have stated that 'muhammadun" is a description of ANYONE who reaches that level, so that response was not accurate. In fact, one who reaches the level of "muhammadun" spreads the word and is a man/woman of the God.
Brother Hussein, we cannot just read a book that claims to be from the Source of Creation and just blindly follow it. We have to have REASON to have faith. WHich of the "prophets" do you have proof of thier exsistence?
I cannot prove a single one of them. I also cannot DISprove any of them. So what does my salaat ORDER for me? To seek the portion that CAN be verified so that my faith is not blind, and that is the MORAL LESSON learned through the SYMBOLISM which the God does not shy from giving.I know it is hard because we were taught to believe in these human beings, but logically it just does not work. My daughter was taught last year in school that Christopher Columbus discovered America. History cannot be trusted as much as most people wish it could. Especially when we are delaing with topics of power as these are. There is too much at stake, so everyone has HIS (own) STORY.
We are not to follow that which we have no knowledge. If you sit back and remain true to yourself, you will see what I am saying is true, if not , please present an argument other than "because God said so", because until you verify the information, you don't even know it is from the God.
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Peace Idol,
We are not to follow that which we have no knowledge. If you sit back and remain true to yourself, you will see what I am saying is true, if not , please present an argument other than "because God said so", because until you verify the information, you don't even know it is from the God.
Excellent!!!
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Peace Kyle,
we cannot just read a book that claims to be from the Source of Creation and just blindly follow it. We have to have REASON to have faith. WHich of the "prophets" do you have proof of thier exsistence?
I cannot prove a single one of them. I also cannot DISprove any of them. So what does my salaat ORDER for me? To seek the portion that CAN be verified so that my faith is not blind, and that is the MORAL LESSON learned through the SYMBOLISM which the God does not shy from giving.You've summed up in one paragraph what I've been trying to say in numerous posts. Great job, bro.
Peace,
Tay -
...
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Salam Idolfree,
I guess that you and I look at the Qur'an from two different angles and therefore we look at what the Qur'an tells differenty. I believe in the one GOD (I think that we share this belief). I believe that the Qur'an is the word of GOD in it's entirety. I do beleive that there are some statements in the Qur'an that are not yet rightly understood and there are others that are. I also believe that the best understanding of the Qur'an is the simplest rather than the most complicated. I disagree with the ones that look at the most esoteric meanings of arabic words. I don't claim to have proof of the stories. I also think that your analysis is too complicated that it defies GOD's saying that the Qur'an is CLEAR. Your theory also cannot be proven.
So I guess that we agree to disagree. May GOD show us both the right path because we both aim for it, and may he forgive our mistakes and ignorance.
Salam
Hussein
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salams all,
i personally think it's amazing that so many people are taking some of these ideas so seriously.
i think it's an extremely scary concept. it is quite tough to have a constructive discussion with someone who claims that islamic beliefs do not have to be logical. this is the constant battle with traditionalist muslims.
but THIS. this is an impossible battle because it is someone who has redefinied logic itself. no meanings of words are sacred. the mere fact that maryam is a feminine word and nafs is a feminine word is enough for him/them to make the terms interchangeable. such a thought process is absolutely unfathomable. and with such pseudo-"logic" you can clearly see how nothing is sacred or safe. not even muhammad (saw) the prophet of Islam the last messenger.
wassalam
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Peace all,
- And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice, there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
The substitution of His words by our own words non based on the context and the definition given by the quran in order to explain it is conjecture.
The quran is clear, fully detailled and it is its best commentary and explains itself.
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And messengers of whom We have narrated (qasasna) to thou from before, and messengers We have not narrated (naqsushu) to thou; and God spoke to Moses directly.
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In their stories (qasasihim ) is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a narration that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who believe.
The Lessons and stories are two distinct things and not intercgangeable. We read "IN their stories is a lesson" instead of "their stories is a lesson".
- These are the towns We relate (naqussu) to thou FROM/some of their stories; their messengers had come to them with proofs, but they would not believe in what they had denied before. It is such that God stamps on the hearts of the rejecters.
In 7101 we read "some of their stories are related to us", that implies these towns have other stories in the past, in the same way for 4164.
- That is from the news of the towns which We relate (naqussu) to you; some are still standing and some have been wiped-out.
Coul we deduce that the towns which have been wiped-out do not exist because we can find no trace of them on earth?
The word of ourLord has been completed with truth and justice.
Does 1736 imply that we shouldn't uphold/follow what we have no knowledge of in the quran or outside the quran?
The following verses contains orders that each one of us should follow during his life, I selected only the verses where the singular form of you is used (thou)
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Do not make with God another god, or thou will find yourself disgraced, abandoned.
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And your Lord decreed that YOU shall not serve except Him, and do good to YOUR parents. When one of them or both of them reaches old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor raise your voice at them, but say to them a kind saying.
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And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and Say ?My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was small.?
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And give the relative his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer; and do not waste excessively.
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And do not make your hand stingy by holding it to your neck, nor shall you lay it fully open so you become in despair and regret.
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And do not say/follow/uphold (taqfu) what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
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And do not walk in the land arrogantly, for you will not penetrate the Earth, nor will you reach the mountains in height.
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All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord.
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That is from what your Lord has inspired to thou of the wisdom. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting.
What I understand from 1736 in the light of the context don't assert nothing before being perfectly sure.
For example to testify with a false testimony or provide a false information or to say a lie such you heard and you did not hear and you saw and you did not see, you know and you don't know "All of this is bad, and disliked by your Lord", this is why "For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for."The verb "taquf" which has the same root with "taqfu" can mean to say.
The God commands us in 496 "O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it."
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The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
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If you are in doubt regarding what We have sent down to thou, then ask those who have been studying the Scripture from before thou. The truth has come to thou from your Lord, so do not be of those who doubt.
Should we have to investigate the truth which is from our Lord?
Marie
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Peace be upon you Hussein,
I guess that you and I look at the Qur'an from two different angles and therefore we look at what the Qur'an tells differenty.
Yes, the job of "cleaning the house" is to remove some of the "angles" so that we all look from the same angle. One thin I noticed above is that you have the word "quran' in capital letters. Why do you take the word reading(quran) to be a proper noun?
I believe in the one GOD (I think that we share this belief).
Absolutely D
I believe that the Qur'an is the word of GOD in it's entirety.
The words of the God never run out, the oceans would dry up if they were ink. This reading(quran) contains all that we need for guidance in the unfolding book of life(al kitaab).
I do beleive that there are some statements in the Qur'an that are not yet rightly understood and there are others that are. I also believe that the best understanding of the Qur'an is the simplest rather than the most complicated. I disagree with the ones that look at the most esoteric meanings of arabic words. I don't claim to have proof of the stories. I also think that your analysis is too complicated that it defies GOD's saying that the Qur'an is CLEAR.
The terms "easy" and "hard" are subjective, new things always seem hard at first. I find my position to be very easy, it removes a lot of burden of trying to reson out things I have no way of knowing.
Your theory also cannot be proven.
Please tell me which part cannot be proven, I will prove it.
So I guess that we agree to disagree. May GOD show us both the right path because we both aim for it, and may he forgive our mistakes and ignorance.
I would say it is too early for "agree to disagree" , but if that is your wish, I do not force anything on you. Peace to you.
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Peace
What does this verse "imply"?
2573 ? And who, whenever they are reminded of even the Revelations of their Lord, DO NOT FALL AT THEM DEAF AND BLIND (with deaf and blind acceptance).
I propose this
They ponder on the signs and proofs in the Qur'aan that teach us some things of the nature of God and His control and power and His immutable laws, become convinced and take action upon this conviction. They will search for the truth of the claims and challenges in the Book and ponder on them in the same manner. I cannot propose to one unfamiliar with the Qur'aan that it is the infallible word of God and not bring proof. If one approaches the Book with a pure heart seeking guidance he does not leave behind his intellect and discernment. The claims and challenges in the Book must be investigated and the proofs of these claims must hold up to all scrutiny.
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
Your posts get further and further away from showing proof, only emotion. That should give you a clue that you may be missing something.
you can clearly see how nothing is sacred or safe. not even muhammad (saw) the prophet of Islam the last messenger.
There is no verse that states that "muhammad" is the last messenger. You have to understand these simple principles before you can even understand what I and others are trying to say.
No matter how much you don't "like" it, you still need to bring some PROOF of your position.
In fact, please tell me your understanding of Isa, son of Mariam.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
The Lessons and stories are two distinct things and not intercgangeable. We read "IN their stories is a lesson" instead of "their stories is a lesson".
- These are the towns We relate (naqussu) to thou FROM/some of their stories; their messengers had come to them with proofs, but they would not believe in what they had denied before. It is such that God stamps on the hearts of the rejecters.
In 7101 we read "some of their stories are related to us", that implies these towns have other stories in the past, in the same way for 4164.
Yes, the lesson is IN the stories, but the STORIES THEMSELVES are given to us symbolically, unless you believe that someone literally split a sea in two, was burned alive but remained in tact, brought a clay bird to life, helaed the blind/sick/dead, etc. There is no proof that comes to your eyes and ears that will verify such beliefs. However, the LESSONS contained in those stories, which is where we should be focused according to the verse you gave, CAN be verified.
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11100. That is from the news of the towns which We relate (naqussu) to you; some are still standing and some have been wiped-out.Coul we deduce that the towns which have been wiped-out do not exist because we can find no trace of them on earth?
We can VERIFY that corruption destroys ALL TOWNS, then and now.