Blind faith in God or using logic before believing in God?
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No, none that I know of.
Belief, faith and submission are being rewarded, not rational or critical thinking. Or logics. Imagine if logics were required! How could you reconcile all-powerful, all-knowing, all merciful, all-just and all other logical inconsistencies?Yup, I agree. There has to be some sort of belief not based on logic...like most Atheists start out "I can't believe in something I can't see."
I personally feel both are absolutely required.
Peace,
Amina
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Peace Stop S
Peace scaredmuslimahI have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion you have reached. While also
agreeing partially with conclusion of Stop S.I always found that logics work pretty much by themselves. And that's how you find out whether assumptions are logically correct or not.
Yes logic must be tested by debate or proved or disproved by evidence.
But the subject is "submission" not philosophy or any other subject, therefore
we must turn to God's revelations for the answers. The first person who comes
to mind is Abraham the monotheistThe Debate
Recall that Abraham said to his father ?zer, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."
The Guidance
We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty
The reflection (logic)
When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."
When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
The Conclusion
"I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."
Certainty
His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed?
Steadfastness
"Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"
Ask For Understanding from God
Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You revive the dead." He said, "Do you not believe?" He said, "Yes, but I wish to reassure my heart." He said, "Take four birds, study their marks, place a piece of each bird on top of a hill, then call them to you. They will come to you in a hurry. You should know that GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."I also submit that faith is an branch of understanding or misunderstanding
Peace O0
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I was just wondering... what is faith and blind faith anyway?
Isn't it that each and everyone that claim to believe in something, also has some sort of reason for it. If you believe in a higher power that you cannot see, cannot prove, hasn't felt etc... still there must be a reason... and it could for example be that you want to fit into a group, and you stick to this identity, belonging and "story" even when you are alone by yourself. You keep playing the role of the "believer". So is there really any blind faith as such? Of course, the real reasons might not be connected to the object of the blind faith, but I think there must be some reason.. so in that sense, it is not totally blind, although unrelated. I mean, how can you believe in something if you have NO reasons whatsoever? Isn't this madness?? You must e.g. at the very least have some sort of feeling in side you, even if you cannot explain it to others... but something must be there.
Peace! -
Peace Stop S
Peace scaredmuslimahI have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion you have reached. While also
agreeing partially with conclusion of Stop S.Yes logic must be tested by debate or proved or disproved by evidence.
But the subject is "submission" not philosophy or any other subject, therefore
we must turn to God's revelations for the answers. The first person who comes
to mind is Abraham the monotheistThe Debate
Recall that Abraham said to his father ?zer, "How could you worship statues as gods? I see that you and your people have gone far astray."
The Guidance
We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty
The reflection (logic)
When the night fell, he saw a shining planet. "Maybe this is my Lord," he said. When it disappeared, he said, "I do not like (gods) that disappear."
When he saw the moon rising, he said, "Maybe this is my Lord!" When it disappeared, he said, "Unless my Lord guides me, I will be with the strayers."
When he saw the sun rising, he said, "This must be my Lord. This is the biggest." But when it set, he said, "O my people, I denounce your idolatry.
The Conclusion
"I have devoted myself absolutely to the One who initiated the heavens and the earth; I will never be an idol worshiper."
Certainty
His people argued with him. He said, "Do you argue with me about GOD, after He has guided me? I have no fear of the idols you set up. Nothing can happen to me, unless my Lord wills it. My Lord's knowledge encompasses all things. Would you not take heed?
Steadfastness
"Why should I fear your idols? It is you who should be afraid, since you worship instead of GOD idols that are utterly powerless to help you. Which side is more deserving of security, if you know?"
Ask For Understanding from God
Abraham said, "My Lord, show me how You revive the dead." He said, "Do you not believe?" He said, "Yes, but I wish to reassure my heart." He said, "Take four birds, study their marks, place a piece of each bird on top of a hill, then call them to you. They will come to you in a hurry. You should know that GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."I also submit that faith is an branch of understanding or misunderstanding
Peace O0
"Allah knows best." How in the world do I explain that to someone who constantly uses logic and does not go off of faith? It's impossible.
When things happen in my life that I can't explain or understand, that is what I have to say to myself. If I tried to use logic for every single situation like that, I would go mad.
So yes...blind faith is required. Not in the sense that one is stupid or ignorant, but in the sense that they must completely rely on God and let logic go at times.
Peace,
Amina
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Peace scaredmuslimah,
"Allah knows best."
"Allah knows best." is the Best answer, even when we think we know or
understand. also "Allah knows best." is the Logical conclusion when we do not know
or understand why something happened or did not happen.Peace Zulf,
I agree with the statementI was just wondering... what is faith and blind faith anyway?
Isn't it that each and everyone that claim to believe in something, also has some sort of reason for it. If you believe in a higher power that you cannot see, cannot prove, hasn't felt etc... still there must be a reason...
REASON DEFINED1.power of orderly thought the power of being able to think in a logical and rational manner
2.ability to think clearly the ability to think clearly and coherently
3.philosophy intellect as basis for knowledge the ability to think logically regarded as a basis for knowledge, as distinct from experience or emotionsFaith and reason are not at odds, both are positive God-given attributes
Peace O0
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Peace scaredmuslimah,
"Allah knows best." is the Best answer, even when we think we know or
understand. also "Allah knows best." is the Logical conclusion when we do not know
or understand why something happened or did not happen.Peace Zulf,
I agree with the statement REASON DEFINED1.power of orderly thought the power of being able to think in a logical and rational manner
2.ability to think clearly the ability to think clearly and coherently
3.philosophy intellect as basis for knowledge the ability to think logically regarded as a basis for knowledge, as distinct from experience or emotionsFaith and reason are not at odds, both are positive God-given attributes
Peace O0
I guess when I think of people who claim to be "logical" beings, I think of those who don't believe in God. Of course we should use our brains...that I don't deny. Not saying that we aren't logical or intelligent.
I'm babbling...going to stop.
peace
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1.power of orderly thought the power of being able to think in a logical and rational manner
2.ability to think clearly the ability to think clearly and coherently
3.philosophy intellect as basis for knowledge the ability to think logically regarded as a basis for knowledge, as distinct from experience or emotionsFaith and reason are not at odds, both are positive God-given attributes
Peace O0
?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.?
-- SiddhartaGood post...
Faith is NOT irrational..
God IS rational...However..
There are irrational people who define the word "God" in irrational manner...
They don't like it when somebody else pointed out the flaw on their thought and could not reconcile their belief with hard facts.. To make other people accept their irrational thought.. they always spread the message that God and rationality cannot go hand in hand.. because their hypothesis on God (and also other things) IS irrational / do not make sense at all..Salam / Peace
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?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.?
-- SiddhartaGood post...
Faith is NOT irrational..
God IS rational...However..
There are irrational people who define the word "God" in irrational manner...
They don't like it when somebody else pointed out the flaw on their thought and could not reconcile their belief with hard facts.. To make other people accept their irrational thought.. they always spread the message that God and rationality cannot go hand in hand.. because their hypothesis on God (and also other things) IS irrational / do not make sense at all..Salam / Peace
Woaa.. I like your post Jafar!
This is how I feel many atheists go about. Many have a dark, irrational and simplistic image of God, and then they use that to come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist. But amazingly they are often times not ready to entertain a more holistic approach to God. They insist on the simplistic image for some reason. They don't seem to want to find out and explain more. They are only ready to explore through means, and in areas, that are bound to reinforce their simplistic image. I wonder why? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? The refusal or the blindness? -
I somehow feel that God is beyond reason, but not ouside reason. Something akin ast what happens with the ego. The ego is necessary. There is no individual existence without ego. The aim is not to eliminate the ego, but to go beyond it. We have to fulfill our earthly existence, and the ego is an instrument for it, but we are not meant to stop there. Reason is also an instrument, there is no humanity without it, but we are meant to go beyond it, when we have extracted all there is to extract, then it will have been integrated in our quest and we will no longer need to think of it or use it as an objective necessity. While on this existence we cannot ignore it or do without, even if there are things which go beyond reason, but never against it.
Of course, while reasoning, we may make catastrophic mistakes, which are not due to reason but to not enough reason.
Salaam
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I somehow feel that God is beyond reason, but not ouside reason. Something akin ast what happens with the ego. The ego is necessary. There is no individual existence without ego. The aim is not to eliminate the ego, but to go beyond it. We have to fulfill our earthly existence, and the ego is an instrument for it, but we are not meant to stop there. Reason is also an instrument, there is no humanity without it, but we are meant to go beyond it, when we have extracted all there is to extract, then it will have been integrated in our quest and we will no longer need to think of it or use it as an objective necessity. While on this existence we cannot ignore it or do without, even if there are things which go beyond reason, but never against it.
Of course, while reasoning, we may make catastrophic mistakes, which are not due to reason but to not enough reason.
Interesting.
I might sum up my view with God being entirely reasonable and completely mystical simultaneously. The submissive idea of God is in harmony with all I can perceive and reason around, but He is also completely, mindbendingly greater than anything I could ever comprehend. How can you ever hope to use reason as an approach the Infinite, Eternal, Absolute? -
Peace huruf,
Of course you are right when you state that
I somehow feel that God is beyond reason,
SalaamOur reasoning can only go as far as acknowledging God's existence and his attributes.
Many question God, but that is an excercise in futility. According to the Quran God
does not allow himself to be questioned
If there were in them (the heavens and the earth) other gods beside GOD, there would have been chaos. Glory be to GOD; the Lord with absolute authority. He is high above their claims.
He is never to be asked about anything He does, while all others are questioned.Reason is no more than a human tool we use to form opinions, come to conclusions,
acquire knowledge etc., but reason has its limits, God did not create equals to himself
but dependents.The ego is necessary. There is no individual existence without ego. The aim is not to eliminate the ego, but to go beyond it.
SalaamThe ego itself must acknowledge that which is beyond it and intellectually submit to the controller of reality in order for the ego to reach its full potential. Allowing the higher attributes of humility, selflessness, fearlessness, and oneness to emerge from the soul.
The Quran states
Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, you have wronged your souls by worshiping the calf. You must repent to your Creator. You shall kill your egos. This is better for you in the sight of your Creator." He did redeem you. He is the Redeemer, Most Merciful.Peace O0
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Logic only works if the underlying assumptions are sound. "Rational" and "critical" often means "myopic" and "arrogant" in reality.
There is nothing inherently illogical about the existence of God, there's just small people using small reasoning.In my post I did not mention anything about the existence of a god. I asked whether anyone could successfully have logics and all-powerful co-exist.
I am not aware of any instance where rational can mean myopic. Could you please provide an example? The same for critical and arrogant if you would, please. Thanks.
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Yup, I agree. There has to be some sort of belief not based on logic...like most Atheists start out "I can't believe in something I can't see."
I personally feel both are absolutely required.
Peace,
Amina
"most atheists"? Oh dear, I don't know a single one who would say this.
A theist is someone who believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is the opposite of a theist.There is a difference in a belief based on experience and a belief for the sake of a belief, without reason.
I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Do I have a reason, such as empirical evidence, for that belief? I maintain yes!
If there is no reason to believe something, why should I believe it? -
Peace Stop S
Peace scaredmuslimahI have to respectfully disagree with the conclusion you have reached. While also
agreeing partially with conclusion of Stop S.Yes logic must be tested by debate or proved or disproved by evidence.
But the subject is "submission" not philosophy or any other subject, therefore
we must turn to God's revelations for the answers.
I also submit that faith is an branch of understanding or misunderstandingPeace O0
Sorry, but I don't understand your point. I don't think I have come to any conclusion. I made an observation and asked some questions.
What does submission have to do with a belief? The belief in a god is purely philosophically as we don't have anything physical.
If you apply logics to the existence of a god you first need to demonstrate the existence of a particular god before turning to that god's scripture. After all, if logics do not substantiate your belief there is no reason to believe the scripture was authored by that very god.
Faith in my eyes is ignoring rational understanding and logics. Have you read about the concepts contained within epistemology? How we gain and classify knowledge?
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"Allah knows best." How in the world do I explain that to someone who constantly uses logic and does not go off of faith? It's impossible.
When things happen in my life that I can't explain or understand, that is what I have to say to myself. If I tried to use logic for every single situation like that, I would go mad.
So yes...blind faith is required. Not in the sense that one is stupid or ignorant, but in the sense that they must completely rely on God and let logic go at times.
Peace,
Amina
That's a very nice way of explaining it. I hope you are not angry if I use that in the future. I think it strikes a nice balance.
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There are irrational people who define the word "God" in irrational manner...
If irrational people define irrationally, wouldn't that be rational?
You have a good point in my opinion. What is the definition of "god" for you?
And why "belief in" and not "belief"? -
That's a very nice way of explaining it. I hope you are not angry if I use that in the future. I think it strikes a nice balance.
Peace StopS
My words have no copyright. Masha'Allah, I am happy that you found them useful!
Amina
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"most atheists"? Oh dear, I don't know a single one who would say this.
A theist is someone who believes there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is the opposite of a theist.There is a difference in a belief based on experience and a belief for the sake of a belief, without reason.
I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. Do I have a reason, such as empirical evidence, for that belief? I maintain yes!
If there is no reason to believe something, why should I believe it?I apologize for the late reply, and I apologize for the original post. I falsely assumed things about your position. I wrote those words out of arrogance and ignorance.
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I might sum up my view with God being entirely reasonable and completely mystical simultaneously. The submissive idea of God is in harmony with all I can perceive and reason around, but He is also completely, mindbendingly greater than anything I could ever comprehend. How can you ever hope to use reason as an approach the Infinite, Eternal, Absolute?
If irrational people define irrationally, wouldn't that be rational?
You have a good point in my opinion. What is the definition of "god" for you?
And why "belief in" and not "belief"?I define "Irrational" as those which doesn't make sense or those statement which rationally can be deducted as false / pointless. There's a big difference between "I don't know" and "I know it's BS"...
Example
S 10/3 = 3.3333333333333 (up to infinity)
Q In the decimal form result of 10/3 = How many 3s are there?
A Infinite
Reasonable / rational statement with non definitive answer.S 10/3 = -150000 because it's said so in my holy book.
Unreasonable / irrational / false statement with ridiculous argument.S 5 + Y = X
Q If Y is UNKNOWN, what number is X?
A If Y is UNKNOWN then X is UNKNOWN, either Y or X must be KNOWN first..
Reasonable / rational statement which doesn't entirely answer the question.Now second question, belief is an internal perception of things around us..
Belief shall shape our thought, emotionIMHO 'belief in God' is irrelevant. Thus "What Is God" doesn't necessarily need to be answered.
What's important is the belief that 'things around us' shall turn out to be better for us. (Positive Attitude).Belief / opinion by itself doesn't really matter. At the end of the day; it's your deed / act that count.
Do good deeds / acts and be positive.
Salam / Peace
