My book on women dress code in Quran
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Ok, one issue is solved.
Good.
Men have also been given orders to guard their private parts and restrain their gaze, and that is before the orders for women.
The point is clothing and covering. Women in Islam are told to lower their gaze - but also to cover their entire body. So why the special treatment in order to avoid lust? When lust can't be the issue as we've just seen.
So, like I said, if a man ends up with lustful thoughts, which here is not limited to just looking at women, as God never restricted it to women, as God simply said, 'Lower/Reduce from their gaze/comprehension by means of looking', he should look somewhere else, or avoid such situations. As looking with lust, and not controlling one's gaze is the root to sexual indecencies (Or at least that's what I conclude from observation and experience, no, this does not mean that I raped someone, don't take it the other way around lol). To further avoid such situations, women have been ordered to cover.
Why don't men simply do as they are told and avoid the entire controversy over covering up women?
As for the homo case, it's the same thing, both men lower their gaze, and guard their private parts. But then again, we still don't have a consensus on the homo issue, whether it's justified to begin with or not. As for men appreciating women, well..........................I..dunno, I've never come across such a case in my life and society, and it's quite hard to believe that a hetero man can appreciate a body of woman, without being sexually turned on...I seriously don't know bout this. Maybe some man here can help me?
Nonono, that's not what I said. I said a man can appreciate the good looks of a woman without immediately thinking of rape, getting violent. Like I said, if I encounter a good looking woman on a nudist beach or the sauna, where everyone is naked, I can like what I see and go back to what I was previously thinking. The environment is not conducive to sex. If I flirt with her things change, but there is no need to rape her. Sorry if I am not man enough to help you '
Good, or...are you being sarcastic? (Sorry if that offended you, it runs in our blood, we (Pakistanis) can't spend a day without suspecting people, thinking more than thrice, and always think negative before thinking positive)
No, here I was straight. I like classy women with a high IQ and education who are also quick minded.
Like I mentioned in my last post, it is not me who claims the 'Needs'. Let's see it this way
The 'Needs' that I derive are from this part of the verse (Extremely literal translation) And they should not strike/put forth with their feet to make known what they hide from their beauty.
Now think, imagine, a perfect woman. I hope you know what I mean by 'Perfect'. She is wearing a tunic, that isn't too tight, nor loose. She strikes her foot on the ground, or stomps, or does something similar. What will happen? What parts will get attention? (Remember that they didn't have undergarments in that era either) What will 'Turn heads'?
Whatever is the answer, is what is a 'Need' to be covered because that's what God is expecting to be covered, and that's because I believe in Him.
As for your questions, well, I'm not an expert in dealing with atheists (Your an atheist. right? I apologize if I'm incorrect), so I really dunno what to say, I'll just end up repeating what I've already said. But, if I have to say anything, then my reply is, that to be on the safe side, that people don't let their carnal desires take over them even if they try not to, they shouldn't go off nude.
Hahaha, you sound as though you are blushing. I understand that you need to do a lot of interpreting to establish anything as the topic is not readily explained. But whatever you are doing just remember that not every girl likes being hidden away and actually enjoys being appreciated and treated like a princess. And the safe side is not always the best side. But seriously, I agree 100% with the rest as whatever happens should leave no regrets.
I think we've covered the ground and it was fun. Enjoy, take care and good luck with your booklet.
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Good.
The point is clothing and covering. Women in Islam are told to lower their gaze - but also to cover their entire body. So why the special treatment in order to avoid lust? When lust can't be the issue as we've just seen.
Why don't men simply do as they are told and avoid the entire controversy over covering up women?
Nonono, that's not what I said. I said a man can appreciate the good looks of a woman without immediately thinking of rape, getting violent. Like I said, if I encounter a good looking woman on a nudist beach or the sauna, where everyone is naked, I can like what I see and go back to what I was previously thinking. The environment is not conducive to sex. If I flirt with her things change, but there is no need to rape her. Sorry if I am not man enough to help you '
No, here I was straight. I like classy women with a high IQ and education who are also quick minded.
Hahaha, you sound as though you are blushing. I understand that you need to do a lot of interpreting to establish anything as the topic is not readily explained. But whatever you are doing just remember that not every girl likes being hidden away and actually enjoys being appreciated and treated like a princess. And the safe side is not always the best side. But seriously, I agree 100% with the rest as whatever happens should leave no regrets.
I think we've covered the ground and it was fun. Enjoy, take care and good luck with your booklet.
You're right, men are actually the ones causing the trouble. Men should restrain their gaze first, but sadly, they don't. They put the blame on women, and then force unnecessary rules upon them.
I now understand what you mean by appreciating another body. It's interacting by means of text that caused misunderstandings to arise between us, anyway, I dont fully agree with you, but I see your point, and I believe there is logic in it. It was nice talking to you, take care.
Though this isn't the end of this thread, others who want to reply may reply and discuss my booklet.
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The aya says to women not to display their beauty, whether natural or applied, it does not tell them that it is wrong if their beauty is seen. Of course it will be seen. they are told "la yubdina, not to exhibit, display, show. That to me, specially since amongst the people they must not parade their beauty in front of are their women (of the women), there is no question of there being a sexual arousal issue with the whole thing, but rather a quetion of vanity. If it was sexual and concerned males, the mention of the women is completely contradictory and also, as stops mentioned, also contradictory that there being and there having been always some people who get kicks off the same sex, what the whole thing suggests is a matter of women not getting hung up on their looks, vanity or simpple redirect their aim, instead to earn social standing an approval thanks to their looks, to earn it in some other way.
The usual way for women up and for them to be valued has rested for a great part on their looks, their attractiveness and their beauty, something which in turn has made them very dependent on that. I think that aya simpli tries to make them think of other values and other means and not to relie in their physical attractiveness to gaing standing or popularity. It ties with the rest of Qur'an.
As to the mention of 'Men without desire' and 'Children who have no knowledge of women's privacy/shame/nakedness' it doesn not override the fact thar women other than "their women" are excluded from the lot, so it cannot be sexual arousal, but a matter of show off. Beauty, feminine beauty anywhere, is considered taking into account attributes such as his, butocks, breasts (covered or uncovered), etc. etc. This that may go unappreciated by those two categories of males. Males' atttractiveness is also tied to their manly aspect, but since beauty for men has not been generally been a weapon or means of gaining standing or poularity, there is no need to warn them about it. Today there is a lot more emphasis on male beauty, but traditionally beauty has been the "domain" of women, and everything has been pushing them to be beautiful or die (or almost, like when they compressed their chest and suffered of continuous fainting) and the amount of estehtic surgery carried on today goes to show that nothing has changed a lot.
Sexual arousement goes another path. For that there is just the moral sense and the will to behave properly of each person. Covering or uncovering doesn't do anything, except obssess people who are not willing to exercise their God given will to behave the way they should or temperament. And as it has been pointed out, one never knows qhat may arise him or her. It may be a gait, however unconspicuous it may be, it may be, and almost always is PURE UNDILUTED IMAGINATION. Sexual attraction is in one's head mostly.
Anyway Fallen Angel I commend your good manners and disposition to take into account other people's arguments. Hope God rewards your endeavours and hope you really do a beautiful job.
Salaam
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Peace be upon you as well
brothers and sisters, let us not forget that the BEST garment is righteousness.
Humbleness and moderation, not showing off--yet looking good/positive. -
The aya says to women not to display their beauty, whether natural or applied, it does not tell them that it is wrong if their beauty is seen. Of course it will be seen. they are told "la yubdina, not to exhibit, display, show. That to me, specially since amongst the people they must not parade their beauty in front of are their women (of the women), there is no question of there being a sexual arousal issue with the whole thing, but rather a quetion of vanity. If it was sexual and concerned males, the mention of the women is completely contradictory and also, as stops mentioned, also contradictory that there being and there having been always some people who get kicks off the same sex, what the whole thing suggests is a matter of women not getting hung up on their looks, vanity or simpple redirect their aim, instead to earn social standing an approval thanks to their looks, to earn it in some other way.
The usual way for women up and for them to be valued has rested for a great part on their looks, their attractiveness and their beauty, something which in turn has made them very dependent on that. I think that aya simpli tries to make them think of other values and other means and not to relie in their physical attractiveness to gaing standing or popularity. It ties with the rest of Qur'an.
As to the mention of 'Men without desire' and 'Children who have no knowledge of women's privacy/shame/nakedness' it doesn not override the fact thar women other than "their women" are excluded from the lot, so it cannot be sexual arousal, but a matter of show off. Beauty, feminine beauty anywhere, is considered taking into account attributes such as his, butocks, breasts (covered or uncovered), etc. etc. This that may go unappreciated by those two categories of males. Males' atttractiveness is also tied to their manly aspect, but since beauty for men has not been generally been a weapon or means of gaining standing or poularity, there is no need to warn them about it. Today there is a lot more emphasis on male beauty, but traditionally beauty has been the "domain" of women, and everything has been pushing them to be beautiful or die (or almost, like when they compressed their chest and suffered of continuous fainting) and the amount of estehtic surgery carried on today goes to show that nothing has changed a lot.
Sexual arousement goes another path. For that there is just the moral sense and the will to behave properly of each person. Covering or uncovering doesn't do anything, except obssess people who are not willing to exercise their God given will to behave the way they should or temperament. And as it has been pointed out, one never knows qhat may arise him or her. It may be a gait, however unconspicuous it may be, it may be, and almost always is PURE UNDILUTED IMAGINATION. Sexual attraction is in one's head mostly.
Anyway Fallen Angel I commend your good manners and disposition to take into account other people's arguments. Hope God rewards your endeavours and hope you really do a beautiful job.
Salaam
Salam,
Very deep stuff. I might add this in my own words in my booklet. Thanks for sharing your opinion and encouraging me to go on with this by your kind words, it means a lot.
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Peace..
I think it's far better to address the issue on dress code for both men and women.. this book without going into details will further the problematic that women are some kind of species that men are always concerned about
Regards
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Peace..
I think it's far better to address the issue on dress code for both men and women.. this book without going into details will further the problematic that women are some kind of species that men are always concerned about
Regards
I'm planning to do that, but life is so busy. I will do it though, as this point came in my mind before I even finished this book, thanks for reminding me.
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Thats some really good work.
You should consider uploading it free to Ibooks, the library app for Iphones and Ipads, short books like that get loads of views especially when free.
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You should consider uploading it free to Ibooks, the library app for Iphones and Ipads, short books like that get loads of views especially when free.
Thanks for the kind words, I guess its just motivation and the urge for making people aware of logic and reason that has caused me to become who I am. Thanks for the advice too, I never thought about that.
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Peace..
I think it's far better to address the issue on dress code for both men and women.. this book without going into details will further the problematic that women are some kind of species that men are always concerned about
Regards
I totally agree . Why is everybody obsessed with the dress code for women and not for men?
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I totally agree . Why is everybody obsessed with the dress code for women and not for men?
Obsession there is. It is overwhelming.
I am very much against any obsession. Obsession for clothes I guess women get fed all the time through all communication channels, even via family, and I suspect intravenous. ?God Merciful and Almighty, liberate us women of the tyriany of clothes and accessories and liberate Muslim men of the bosession with our clothes, it is too much!
I suggest our delightful and helpful Fallen Angel to include in his book a prayer for women and men for God to keep us from the dressers and undressers, and to keep both those two groups somewhere in outer space where they cannot reach us whether by email, radio, satellite, or whatever, ciphered or unciphered. In sha' Allah, in sha' Allah, in sha' Allah!
Salaam
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Obsession there is. It is overwhelming.
I am very much against any obsession. Obsession for clothes I guess women get fed all the time through all communication channels, even via family, and I suspect intravenous. ?God Merciful and Almighty, liberate us women of the tyriany of clothes and accessories and liberate Muslim men of the bosession with our clothes, it is too much!
I suggest our delightful and helpful Fallen Angel to include in his book a prayer for women and men for God to keep us from the dressers and undressers, and to keep both those two groups somewhere in outer space where they cannot reach us whether by email, radio, satellite, or whatever, ciphered or unciphered. In sha' Allah, in sha' Allah, in sha' Allah!
Salaam
lol, sorry, I couldn't help it, your post kinda made me laugh, but seriously, thanks for the advice, I'll get right to it.
Btw, are you a woman?
Salamun Alayk
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Btw, are you a woman?
Salaam,
My first half year on this forum I always thought that Huruf was a man, when I discovered that she is a woman I was hypno
Then for some reason I always thought that she was ex-sunni but just recently I discovered that she is ex-catholic and again I was hypno -
Its just the name, 'Huruf' sounds, quite um, you know, 'Manly', that's all
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Salaam, Bender,
I am surprised and curious why you felt like hypno when you learnt that I was
a) a woman, and
b) ex catholicAt any rate, thank you for the interest.
Salaam
Salaam Huruf,
A)
1 first of all you have no gender on your info
2 your nick (I guess it's your nick ) sounds manly.
3 your writing style (use of your words) is not like that of an average woman.
4 you're reactions on topics about women are also not like that of an average woman.
5 you're interests (topics in which you participate) are very wide.B)
don't exactly know why, but when I discovered that you were a woman I directly labeled you a ex-sunni
Maybe because you're arabic understanding is far above the average of a non-arabic born.
But maybe you were a catholic who was born in an arabic country (like the copts in Egypt).btw points A3, A4 and A5 are not meant negative to you, on the contrary I really like it.
Salaam,
Benderbtw I am not spying on you
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Thank you Fallen Angel and Bender for you answers, the latter by the way, very complete.
They do surprise me and I find the subject quite interesting.
A reason why I do not put down my gender int he profile is precisele to avoid that people prejudge what I write by adscribing to it form the start a gender. Because people, all people in some measure and with different intensity are prejudiced genderwise.
PEOPLE PREJUDGE. Even I, who (I hope) have managed to prejudge less and less, prejudge many times the gender of a person in forums. And the most common prejudice is precise the gender prejudice. The forums, by reason of anonymity are an excellent way to observe how much and often we do that thing that we think we do not do.
In another forum I participate, there is person with several nics. With one nic, which is feminine, people pick on her sand call her names, with another nic, giving the same views and opinions, but which is taken to be masculine, people give her sometime applause but alwasys respect, and even will get the two opposite things in the same thread and from the same participants for each nic.
I am surprised that Huruf should sound masculine. Huruf is plural of harf, letter. Why letters should sound masculine, I do not know. To me it is neutral.
That not being an a average woman, may be, and it is a nice compliment. My hopes of winning some world beauty contest have gone up reading that. .
5 you're interests (topics in which you participate) are very wide.
That I find surprising and worth studying. Do women really show a more restricted range of topics than men? Is there and objective observation of that?
As to the sunni part, the Arabic I have studied and I spent some time in Egypt long time ago.
As may already know other members, I am from Spain, which is Muslim enough, -no matter how much the new Spanish imperial suckers try to erase that fact of history- but may be not Muslim enough recently to give raise to many ex-sunnis. May be being ex-sunni or ex-catholic or ex-christian or ex-whatever is not very different after all. The question may be to dare to question whatever does not make sense to us.
May be this topic of psychological adscription by sex or gender could be independent. I have upheld for quite a long time, that psychology may have gender but nos sex, but that gendering is part of social engeneering that favours some temperaments and disfavours and even damages very severely other temperaments. But that a any rate temperament is matter of individuals not sex. Of course the experiences lived by each sex are different and that difference gives in turn group differences. Like the temperament of slaves is submissive, because it is better for them if they want to survive, etc. etc.
Salaam
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A reason why I do not put down my gender int he profile is precisele to avoid that people prejudge what I write by adscribing to it form the start a gender. Because people, all people in some measure and with different intensity are prejudiced genderwise.
It didn't work sis rotfl
A)
1 first of all you have no gender on your info
2 your nick (I guess it's your nick ) sounds manly.
3 your writing style (use of your words) is not like that of an average woman.
4 you're reactions on topics about women are also not like that of an average woman.
5 you're interests (topics in which you participate) are very wide.B)
don't exactly know why, but when I discovered that you were a woman I directly labeled you a ex-sunni
Maybe because you're arabic understanding is far above the average of a non-arabic born.
But maybe you were a catholic who was born in an arabic country (like the copts in Egypt).peace