Israel a grateful servant : He never was a prophet neither his progeny was
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Salam AlKitab,
nice post but I have a question for you
when I read the quranic texte in 173 I understand that the "HE" refers to Noah and not Israel!!!!!
Please comment/answer.
thanks
Salam member Herbman and welcome ,
They key to understand this is to read not only the wording but examine the context of the speech accordingly .
The verse 173 is talking about the progeny , and the verse said its a progeny of who was carried with Noah , ( notice who is referring to somebody) the verse here still talk about the progeny , and when the verse said he was a grateful servant it is still talking about the progeny and by using the article HE the verse is referring to Israel because he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah in the ship , it can't be referring to his sons because the article he is singular and it can't be referring to Noah because Noah is not the subject of the speech in 17-3 , the subject of the sentence in 17-3 is the word progeny so the HE in he was a grateful servant is referring to the subject ( progeny) so "he" is referring to Israel as he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah .
The other key to understand this is The relative pronoun " Who / / man " used in
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 progeny of who We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant."Who" is pronoun referring to who ? It is referring to the one that was with Noah in the ship , so Israel is a progeny ( a branch ) from the one ( the source ) who was in the ship with Noah.
The context of the speech in 17-3 is not talking neither about the sons of Israel nor about Noah , it's about Israel as he is the progeny mentioned in there as being from the one who was carried in the ship.
If Israel was in the ship the verse should be like this
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 The progeny that We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.17-2/3
But the verse is simply not saying that
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Aisha I kindly recommend you use the Quran as reference while studying , judging , correcting or rejecting what you read / learn from other book and not the opposite , studying other scripture is recommended as per 6-156 , but you have to take the Quran as last reference as per 5-48 and 27-76 , and if turns out that you didn't find what you are looking for in the Quran then simply because its not a important subject in the eyes of the recent book.
I was studying, not judging, correcting or rejecting and I was using Quran and Torah and Gospel as God says He sent these with the same message so I would expect them to match up, which is what I was studying........nothing to do with correcting judging or rejecting any and nothing to do with 'finding what I'm looking for', just to match things up.
I think the importance of Moses sister being Mary mother of Jesus is pretty important and is in the recent book and I was studying what the Torah and bible did with the 1500 years historical difference, not to mention spreading that little gem of a secret across 2 different books, Torah and Gospel, and of course 2 different bunches of followers as the Jews rejected Jesus, which they wouldn't have if uncle Moses was around as well - and by taking Mariam as the mother of Jesus didn't really give the Jews long enough to mess up before God sends the nephew of Moses to sort it out?? To me these 2 Mariams are different women altogether which is why I asked the question I asked you and you didn't answer. peace
It was my personal question and my personal 'place' of study at this time, no way am I saying anyone else needs bother with it, but it interests me and that's again why I asked the question I did peace
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Salam member Herbman and welcome ,
They key to understand this is to read not only the wording but examine the context of the speech accordingly .
The verse 173 is talking about the progeny , and the verse said its a progeny of who was carried with Noah , ( notice who is referring to somebody) the verse here still talk about the progeny , and when the verse said he was a grateful servant it is still talking about the progeny and by using the article HE the verse is referring to Israel because he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah in the ship , it can't be referring to his sons because the article he is singular and it can't be referring to Noah because Noah is not the subject of the speech in 17-3 , the subject of the sentence in 17-3 is the word progeny so the HE in he was a grateful servant is referring to the subject ( progeny) so "he" is referring to Israel as he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah .
The other key to understand this is The relative pronoun " Who / / man " used in
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 progeny of who We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant."Who" is pronoun referring to who ? It is referring to the one that was with Noah in the ship , so Israel is a progeny ( a branch ) from the one ( the source ) who was in the ship with Noah.
The context of the speech in 17-3 is not talking neither about the sons of Israel nor about Noah , it's about Israel as he is the progeny mentioned in there as being from the one who was carried in the ship.
If Israel was in the ship the verse should be like this
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 The progeny that We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.17-2/3
But the verse is simply not saying that
In my understanding the exsamination of the verse point to Isreal not Mussa/ Moses , simply because Mussa/ Moses is directly from the progeny of Nuh/Noah not from the ones that was carried with him in the ship .
The ONLY people carried on the ark were Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives.
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Peace all.
" Dhurriyatta man hamalna maa Nuh" in 173 to me are " the descendants of noah"?
Peace.
Salaam, good logic,
Thank you for your answer, still I am not sure, because the action mentioned is hamalna, God is the actor and dhurriya is not the object but to me looks like a subject described with the action performed with the object from whom the dhurriyat derives. So I am looking for something that would justify the accusative, but the hamalna, as far as I can understand it now, does not fit , it refers to "man". I must be lacking some element of the grammar or soemthing else. As it is it seems, to try to decide as to each element of the ayas to me is problematic.
Thanks again
Salaam
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The verse 173 is talking about the progeny , and the verse said its a progeny of who was carried with Noah , ( notice who is referring to somebody) the verse here still talk about the progeny , and when the verse said he was a grateful servant it is still talking about the progeny and by using the article HE the verse is referring to Israel because he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah in the ship , it can't be referring to his sons because the article he is singular and it can't be referring to Noah because Noah is not the subject of the speech in 17-3 , the subject of the sentence in 17-3 is the word progeny so the HE in he was a grateful servant is referring to the subject ( progeny) so "he" is referring to Israel as he is the progeny of who was carried with Noah .
Salaam, Alkitab,
I may be tempted to think it talks about Noah, but as I wrote answering good logic, the whole grammar with the accusative dhurriyata is still confusing me. At any rate, since dhurriyatA is accusative how can you make it the subject of the sentence. It should be the object of a sentence, but which sentence?
Salaam
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The ONLY people carried on the ark were Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives.
I Kindly appreciate , next time , if it doesn't bother you ,if you can provide proof from the Quran about what you are Saying / Claiming .
There were other people with Noah in the ship , the proof is
11-40 Until when Our command came and Fara Al-tannour , We said, "Load upon the ship of each two mates and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
So on the ship there was Noah his family and those who believed
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Peace all.
" Dhurriyatta man hamalna maa Nuh" in 173 to me are " the descendants of noah"?
Peace.
Salam Gd logic ,
Durreayh in the verse 17-3 is singular not plural , so if you translated it to descendant it should be translated to singular form too not plural , so it won't be pointing to a group of people but to a single person , but this is not the main proof that its about a single person ( Isreal) the main proof is the singular article HE in front of He was a grateful servant .
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I Kindly appreciate , next time , if it doesn't bother you ,if you can provide proof from the Quran about what you are Saying / Claiming .
There were other people with Noah in the ship , the proof is
11-40 Until when Our command came and Fara Al-tannour , We said, "Load upon the ship of each two mates and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
So on the ship there was Noah his family and those who believed
I remind you that Allah sent the Torah and sent the Quran as a reminder of what was sent before it. 3.3 and many others. By reminding us this as well as describing some of the things in it then it would seem logical to LOOK at it, wouldn't it?
Genesis 7
1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him and the Lord shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Genesis 8
14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.15 And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
It goes on of course and in Genesis 10 you will find that Magog is the grandson of Noah from his son Japheth......but that's yet another debate....
So yes there were people on the boat with Noah, there was his wife, his sons and their wives, they were the believers and they were the ones saved so any progeny will be from Noah's family as the rest of the earth inhabitants were gone.........this is where you will also find the rainbow and what that signifies. handshake
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Peace Aisha,
I would not use these books as source for guidance, because the book you refer to are simply NOT the Gospel and Thora described in AQ!
If you still keep thinking these books are the ones refered in AQ, please explain to us
- why is Lot considered as a drinking man and had sex with his daughters while AQ say he was a great servant
- why is prophete Solom described as wrong doer at the end of his life while AQ say the contrary
- why is the OT describing Moses death when he is supposed to have written it
etc etc...
Peace
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Peace Aisha,
I would not use these books as source for guidance, because the book you refer to are simply NOT the Gospel and Thora described in AQ!
Peace herbman. Allah gave the Law to Moses, the Law are the first 5 books of the OT, this is the Torah and this was the Torah that was around when Allah revealed Quran confirming it.
If you still keep thinking these books are the ones refered in AQ, please explain to us
- why is Lot considered as a drinking man and had sex with his daughters while AQ say he was a great servant
Lot was a very long time ago and things didn't go the way YOU are comfortable with today. It doesn't mean he was NOT a great servant of God in the same way Moses, who killed a man, was a great servant of God. Only because that is in Quran will you accept that a prophet of God killed a man. If you read the story of Lot you will see it was his daughters that did the deed, Lot was drunk, there were no verses to moderate wine in those days.
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why is prophete Solom described as wrong doer at the end of his life while AQ say the contrary
I think Quran does mention where Solomon erred too but I'm about to go out so if you can't find it I will look later. Again he did redeem himself with God. Prophets are human beings too and do things wrong, just as Muhammed did. -
why is the OT describing Moses death when he is supposed to have written it
etc etc...
Did Muhammed write the Quran as you think Moses wrote the Torah?
peace
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Peace herbman. Allah gave the Law to Moses, the Law are the first 5 books of the OT, this is the Torah and this was the Torah that was around when Allah revealed Quran confirming it.
Please quote in AQ where Moses received the Torah?
Can you give evidence that the Torah is the first 5 books and not the first 3 books for example, with quranic support?Lot was a very long time ago and things didn't go the way YOU are comfortable with today. It doesn't mean he was NOT a great servant of God in the same way Moses, who killed a man, was a great servant of God. Only because that is in Quran will you accept that a prophet of God killed a man. If you read the story of Lot you will see it was his daughters that did the deed, Lot was drunk, there were no verses to moderate wine in those days.
This is a valid argument but my argument is that the Sunna of The God does not change, this means The God system does not change neither regarding alcohol or messenger behaviour, also AQ does not gossip a lot regarding messenger's lifes but men do! This is not the perpoise of the book!
Did Muhammed write the Quran as you think Moses wrote the Torah?
peaceThis is totally out of scope, but NO he is not the author if it is what you mean.
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what ever you think you are right or no is not the problem, brother AlKitab try to show/demonstrate something using Quran only and you come with outside sources to contre argue!!!
This lead to endless discussion because arguments are based on faith (what ever you trust to be the truth) and not on simple quranic logic (what is said and not said).
Peace
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?Who thinks Moses wrote the torah?
God gave Musa the Tawra, that is what the Qur'an says. Does not say Musa wrote anything, that I can recall, nor did he narrate his own life.
Whoever wrote his biography as per the Bible was certainly not Musa nor God.Salaam
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what ever you think you are right or no is not the problem, brother AlKitab try to show/demonstrate something using Quran only and you come with outside sources to contre argue!!!
This lead to endless discussion because arguments are based on faith (what ever you trust to be the truth) and not on simple quranic logic (what is said and not said).
Peace
Oooh no, I am not arguing, my apologies I was trying to help in the discussion, so as we don't want a discussion to be endless I'll stay off this one but my faith was in God being aware what was in the Torah when Quran was recited and hence mentioning it a few many times.
But of course the whole thing has been corrupted as per hadith claim right? peace
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I have the impression that Ayisha uses the Qur'an JUST to legitimate the Torash, not the Tawrah, and after that, once established that the Qur'an blesses the Torah, not the Tawra, forget the Qur'an and keep using only the bible as a source.
So the Qur'an is used to warrant discarding of the Qur'an and using the Bible instead.
Also concerning the first ayas of Sura 17, As I said in one previous post, I think that the dhurriyatA mentioned at the beginning of aya 3 refers to Musa. Musa is dhurriyat "man hamalna ma3a Nuh.
Salaam
Salaam -
I have the impression that Ayisha uses the Qur'an JUST to legitimate the Torash, not the Tawrah, and after that, once established that the Qur'an blesses the Torah, not the Tawra, forget the Qur'an and keep using only the bible as a source.
So the Qur'an is used to warrant discarding of the Qur'an and using the Bible instead.
What is the Torash? Never heard of that one. Your impression is wrong, VERY wrong. peace
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Also concerning the first ayas of Sura 17, As I said in one previous post, I think that the dhurriyatA mentioned at the beginning of aya 3 refers to Musa. Musa is dhurriyat "man hamalna ma3a Nuh.
Salaam
SalaamSalam Member huruf ,
Mussa can't be the one mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny ( durreyah) of who was carried with Nuh , because Mussa is from Al-Imran and Al-Imran are a direct progeny from Al-Ibraheem , and Al-Ibraheem is direct progeny from Nuh , all this progeny are not from who was carried on the ship with Nuh but they are Nuh direct progeny .
3-33 Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over Al-aa'limeen
3-34 A progeny, some of them from other . And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.3-33
3-34
The progeny that is mentioned in 17-3 , the verse said
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 progeny of who We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.17-2/3
Mussa is not a progney from the one who was carried with Nuh in the ship , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny
If Mussa was the mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny the verse would say
17-3 progeny of Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.
17-3
But the verse doesn't say that , the verse is not talking about Mussa as he is not a progeny of who was carried with Nuh , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny .
You see the point ?
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Peace Alkitab.
No, I do not see your point?
That makes Moses before Abraham. This is not the case.
You are making thing complicated? It is simple
Abraham was a descendant of Noah, Moses was a descendant of Abraham, therefore Moses is also a descendant of Noah.
Peace.