Israel a grateful servant : He never was a prophet neither his progeny was
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?Who thinks Moses wrote the torah?
God gave Musa the Tawra, that is what the Qur'an says. Does not say Musa wrote anything, that I can recall, nor did he narrate his own life.
Whoever wrote his biography as per the Bible was certainly not Musa nor God.Salaam
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what ever you think you are right or no is not the problem, brother AlKitab try to show/demonstrate something using Quran only and you come with outside sources to contre argue!!!
This lead to endless discussion because arguments are based on faith (what ever you trust to be the truth) and not on simple quranic logic (what is said and not said).
Peace
Oooh no, I am not arguing, my apologies I was trying to help in the discussion, so as we don't want a discussion to be endless I'll stay off this one but my faith was in God being aware what was in the Torah when Quran was recited and hence mentioning it a few many times.
But of course the whole thing has been corrupted as per hadith claim right? peace
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I have the impression that Ayisha uses the Qur'an JUST to legitimate the Torash, not the Tawrah, and after that, once established that the Qur'an blesses the Torah, not the Tawra, forget the Qur'an and keep using only the bible as a source.
So the Qur'an is used to warrant discarding of the Qur'an and using the Bible instead.
Also concerning the first ayas of Sura 17, As I said in one previous post, I think that the dhurriyatA mentioned at the beginning of aya 3 refers to Musa. Musa is dhurriyat "man hamalna ma3a Nuh.
Salaam
Salaam -
I have the impression that Ayisha uses the Qur'an JUST to legitimate the Torash, not the Tawrah, and after that, once established that the Qur'an blesses the Torah, not the Tawra, forget the Qur'an and keep using only the bible as a source.
So the Qur'an is used to warrant discarding of the Qur'an and using the Bible instead.
What is the Torash? Never heard of that one. Your impression is wrong, VERY wrong. peace
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Also concerning the first ayas of Sura 17, As I said in one previous post, I think that the dhurriyatA mentioned at the beginning of aya 3 refers to Musa. Musa is dhurriyat "man hamalna ma3a Nuh.
Salaam
SalaamSalam Member huruf ,
Mussa can't be the one mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny ( durreyah) of who was carried with Nuh , because Mussa is from Al-Imran and Al-Imran are a direct progeny from Al-Ibraheem , and Al-Ibraheem is direct progeny from Nuh , all this progeny are not from who was carried on the ship with Nuh but they are Nuh direct progeny .
3-33 Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over Al-aa'limeen
3-34 A progeny, some of them from other . And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.3-33
3-34
The progeny that is mentioned in 17-3 , the verse said
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 progeny of who We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.17-2/3
Mussa is not a progney from the one who was carried with Nuh in the ship , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny
If Mussa was the mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny the verse would say
17-3 progeny of Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.
17-3
But the verse doesn't say that , the verse is not talking about Mussa as he is not a progeny of who was carried with Nuh , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny .
You see the point ?
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Peace Alkitab.
No, I do not see your point?
That makes Moses before Abraham. This is not the case.
You are making thing complicated? It is simple
Abraham was a descendant of Noah, Moses was a descendant of Abraham, therefore Moses is also a descendant of Noah.
Peace.
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Salam Member huruf ,
Mussa can't be the one mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny ( durreyah) of who was carried with Nuh , because Mussa is from Al-Imran and Al-Imran are a direct progeny from Al-Ibraheem , and Al-Ibraheem is direct progeny from Nuh , all this progeny are not from who was carried on the ship with Nuh but they are Nuh direct progeny .
3-33 Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over Al-aa'limeen
3-34 A progeny, some of them from other . And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.3-33
3-34
The progeny that is mentioned in 17-3 , the verse said
17-2 And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs,
17-3 progeny of who We carried with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.17-2/3
Mussa is not a progney from the one who was carried with Nuh in the ship , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny
If Mussa was the mentioned in 17-3 as being the progeny the verse would say
17-3 progeny of Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant.
17-3
But the verse doesn't say that , the verse is not talking about Mussa as he is not a progeny of who was carried with Nuh , Mussa is directly a Nuh progeny .
You see the point ?
The way you are looking at this is complicating it as good logic said. Looking at it your way Allah was talking about Moses (17.2) then goes on to talk about some other progeny un-named, why? Those 2 verses flow together, Moses is the progeny of Noah yes, from one of the sons of Noah who was on the boat. You are making something that isn't there. Allah has not gone off and started talking about someone else, He's saying Moses was the progeny of those on the boat with Noah, which were his sons, one of which became the ancestor or Moses.........and so was Noah.
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I remind you that Allah sent the Torah and sent the Quran as a reminder of what was sent before it. 3.3 and many others. By reminding us this as well as describing some of the things in it then it would seem logical to LOOK at it, wouldn't it?
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
17 Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
19 Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
The verse 11-40 in the Quran said , he should load two pair not seven
11-40 until when Our command came and (fara Al-tannour), We said, "Load upon the ship of each two pair and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Nowhere in the Quran is mention that the entire earth will be destroyed after the flood of Nuh
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him and the Lord shut him in.
It's simply reasonable that Nuh did only load two pair of livestock " Al-an3am " not all flesh or all leaving creature , if you count all living creature in the earth it sound not logical that he did so , also however how big the ship is it couldn't carry all leaving creatures in the earth
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
It is logical that the case of the flood happened at the time of Nuh was in a determined area not all the face of the ground .
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
16 Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
18 And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him
So yes there were people on the boat with Noah, there was his wife, his sons and their wives, they were the believers and they were the ones saved so any progeny will be from Noah's family as the rest of the earth inhabitants were gone.........this is where you will also find the rainbow and what that signifies. handshake
11-36 And it was revealed to Noah that, "No one will believe from your community except those who have already believed, so do not be distressed by what they have been doing.
11-40 until when Our command came and (fara Al-tannour) We said, "Load upon the ship of each two pair and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
The verse 11-36 is talking about his community , it says that no one will believe from Noah 's community except those who have already believed , the verse 11-40 is commanding Noah to load in the ship the following
- Two pair of ( livestock in my opinion not all living creature)
- His family
- And whoever has believed ( and they were few )
from the progeny of the few ones who has believed , who were in the ship with Noah , come a man centuries later called Israel , his ancestors were good people they believed in the teaching of Noah , Israel the progeny of those who believed in Noah was also a grateful servant ( and in my opinion because of the good work of Israel and the work of his ancestors who believed in Noah , Allah Favorited his sons above Al-aa'limeen , its about recognizing not only Israel and his sons but also their ancestors , the few ones who believed and were with Noah in the ship )
Comment
Aisha In my opinion You post too much out of topic ,I kindly recommend if you can put it in a separate post it would be helpful for the thread to be readable . Thanks for considering .
salam -
Peace Alkitab.
You are making thing complicated? It is simple
Abraham was a descendant of Noah, Moses was a descendant of Abraham, therefore Moses is also a descendant of Noah.
Peace.
Salam member Gd Logic
Did i said the opposite ?
No, I do not see your point?
Witch point ?
That makes Moses before Abraham. This is not the case.
Can you Quote and past where did i write that , and how did you understand it ?
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The verse 11-40 in the Quran said , he should load two pair not seven,
it doesn't say 7 pairs either it says by 7s and of the unclean by 2, a pair.Nowhere in the Quran is mention that the entire earth will be destroyed after the flood of Nuh
Nor does it mention dinosaurs.Noah does ask that no non believers will be left. 71.27-28
It's simply reasonable that Nuh did only load two pair of livestock " Al-an3am " not all flesh or all leaving creature , if you count all living creature in the earth it sound not logical that he did so , also however how big the ship is it couldn't carry all leaving creatures in the earth
then why is Allah bothering to say take these 2 pairs of each onto the boat?It is logical that the case of the flood happened at the time of Nuh was in a determined area not all the face of the ground .
yes that is possible, but does it change or have anything to do with the message? Quran is in Classical Arabic of 1400 years ago, Torah is a translation of a translation of language that is thousands of years old. Because there are some 'odd' points doesn't make it not from God, it makes it that language and perceptions were totally different THEN to what they are NOW or were 1400 years ago. Nitpicking about how many animals or which animals is hardly relevant is it? and why no dinosaurs in any books, does that mean they didn't exist as Quran didn't mention them?Step back from the detailed discussions and thoughts that go on for a million pages about the grammar construction of a single word and look at the bigger picture. God has pointed you TO these books, it's up to you to believe they are anything to do with Him.
11-36 And it was revealed to Noah that, "No one will believe from your community except those who have already believed, so do not be distressed by what they have been doing.
11-40 until when Our command came and (fara Al-tannour) We said, "Load upon the ship of each two pair and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
The verse 11-36 is talking about his community , it says that no one will believe from Noah 's community except those who have already believed , the verse 11-40 is commanding Noah to load in the ship the following
- Two pair of ( livestock in my opinion not all living creature)
- His family
- And whoever has believed ( and they were few )
So if it was just a small community why bother taking livestock or any of the '2 pairs' as there would be plenty left after the 'contained' flood in the rest of the earth?
from the progeny of the few ones who has believed , who were in the ship with Noah , come a man centuries later called Israel , his ancestors were good people they believed in the teaching of Noah , Israel the progeny of those who believed in Noah was also a grateful servant ( and in my opinion because of the good work of Israel and the work of his ancestors who believed in Noah , Allah Favorited his sons above Al-aa'limeen , its about recognizing not only Israel and his sons but also their ancestors , the few ones who believed and were with Noah in the ship )
Yes, Israel was of the progeny of Noah and Abraham, he was the grandson of Abraham.Comment
Aisha In my opinion You post too much out of topic ,I kindly recommend if you can put it in a separate post it would be helpful for the thread to be readable . Thanks for considering .
salamI don't consider anything I have said out of topic but sorry if you feel discussing Noah, Moses, Abraham has nothing to do with the previous books Allah is telling you those stories from. peace
I will leave you to your circular arguments which after 6 pages are going nowhere as you disbelieve in the previous books which Allah confirms. peace
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I do not know whether you are answering me, but at any rate at clarify that my question referred exclusively to the gramatical aspect of the ayas in question, that is 17.1, 2, 3.
Salaam
peace
No I was pointing out to Alkitab that Quran says the family of Noah were saved.
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17.2-3
It is either Musa, or the meaning of the sentence would be
We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel so that they would not take as Disposer of (your) affairs instead of Me "dhurriyatA" "progeny" of whom we carried with Nuh?
I think it is rather Musa, but please comments.
Salaam
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17.2-3
It is either Musa, or the meaning of the sentence would be
We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel so that they would not take as Disposer of (your) affairs instead of Me "dhurriyatA" "progeny" of whom we carried with Nuh?
I think it is rather Musa, but please comments.
Salaam
Me?? I don't understand that part, this is God talking, not Moses or Noah.
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dhurriyatA is accusative, please, it does not refer to Musa, to whom does it refer? The only one I can see that it can refer to is Musa. If it is not him, then please show to whom it refers.
Salaam
It's referring to Israel
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Salam Upon All ,
I will be updating this thread according to
26-111 They said, "Should we believe you while you are followed by the lowest ?"
26-114 And I am not one to drive away the believers.
26-118 Then judge between me and them with decisive judgement and save me and those with me of the believers."
26-119 So We saved him and those with him in the laden ship.
26-120 Then We drowned thereafter the remaining ones.And According to this
37-75 And Noah had certainly called Us, and the best of responders.
37-76 And We saved him and his family from the great affliction.37-77 And We made his progeny those remaining
And according to this
11-45 And Nuh called to his Rabb and said, "Rabbi , indeed my son is of my family; and indeed, Your promise is true; and You are the most just of judges!"
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Alsalm 3alikum
Excellent post brother Alkitabm, I do agree with your observation on 17-2/3
also the context of the following verses confirm what you've said that the verse is talking about Israel progeny and not Mousa.But the verse posted by sister Ayisha indicate that there we prophets from the progeny of Israel,
45.16
doesn't mean prophethood ?
Thank you,
Where on earth do you get this false prophets to do with Israel from???
45.16 We did aforetime grant to the Children of Israel the Book the Power of Command, and Prophethood; We gave them, for Sustenance, things good and pure; and We favoured them above the nations.
As Torah says too they were favoured by God because they were from Abrahams line through Isaac as I went through on the other Israel thread. GOD is saying the prophets are from this line and YOU claim they are the line of false prophets?? Seriously where do you get this from??