The "Divine Preservation" Argument Regarding Salat
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I agree that the claim that the rituals have been preserved and passed down to us from the time of Abraham is without any Quranic support.
22.34 ?For each Congregation? Community? Nation? ( umma) we have decreed rites/ religious ceremonies whereby they commemorate the name of God for providing them with livestock?
22.36 ?The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by God for your own good?.
22.67 For each / every Congregation /community / Nation? (ummatin) we have decreed a set of rites /religious ceremonies that they must uphold.
42.10 ?And in whatsoever you differ the decision thereof is with Allah?There are several fundamental questions that need to be answered regarding rites.
*Does umma refer to religious community or cultural community?
*We need to ask ourselves to which congregation / community / Nation (umma) do I belong? For example Am I a Buddhist? A Shintoist? Nasaaraa? Person of the Book?(Alil Kitabi), Jew, Christian? Samarian? Sabian? one of the Children of Israel , an Arab, a Bedouin, an American Indian etc ?
*How do I know what the rites/ religious ceremonies are that God has decreed for my umma?Quran tells us that ALL BELIEVERS do aqeemas salaata / bow, prostrate and worship God so these are not the specific rites / religious ceremonies that God mentions in 22.64 as being different from each other.
It seems to me that the following verses (and many others) outline the requirements of the religion of Islam, as these are the same for all believers
2.62 and 5.69
5.12 Allah told the Children of Israel ? I am with you if you do aqamtumus Salaata, give zakat, believe in my messengers, honor and assist them, and lend a good loan to God?
22.78 It is the religion of your father Abraham. It is He who has named you muslimeena both before and in this (Quran), that the Messenger may be a witness over you and you be witnesses over mankind. So perform aqeemus-Salaataa, give Zakat and hold fast to God??The verses below, indicate that the religious rites / ceremonies WERE NOT handed down from Abraham but were taught to each community through their messengers.
6.91 ?.and you were taught that which neither you nor your fathers knew.
5.104 Enough for us is that which we found our fathers following. Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever nor guidance.I also agree that the Arabic words in Quran for creed, religion and rites refer to different concepts. Rites differ depending on the umma we belong to. To each umma God sends a messenger to teach the rites. Those who belong to Muhammed?s umma (follow the revelations of Prophet Muhammed ) can find the rites he taught in the Quran. They are to be performed for Hajj and Ramadan.
*Are there any other rites mentioned besides those?It makes sense that those who belong to other umma will follow the rites from their messengers and scriptures, but if they are believers these cannot contradict the requirements and values of Islam which is the only creed and religion acceptable to God.
Re the following verses, how are we to understand them when there are animals that are solitary and don?t live in communities, ( e.g. Leopards, Hamsters Jaguars , Camelions , hermit crabs , Rhinoceroses , Desert Grasshoppers)and there are birds with no wings that don?t fly but do live in communities (colonies) eg kiwi.
There is not a moving creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then to their Lord they shall be gathered.
All the creatures on earth and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities like you. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned.
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Salaam
Salat is the divine comandments that should observed and stablished, not a ritual.. Salat is about reprograming youre nefs to do good deeds acording to divine laws in Quran, inside Quran youve got Surat Furqan wich in MOP is the laws enerithed by Musa, but only Allah knows).
Dhikr is remember of Allah and Duaa is to ask/call/invoke Allah---these 2 are more to be something closed to what salat is todayEven Ahl Al Ahadith journal of 1997 Ulemma had agreed that this Salat is dive laws that need to be suported and established and not a ritualprayer or worship. but still people want to bealive in a salat as ritual prayer..humans are very ungratfull for what they have..they alweyes want more.. and thats when starts the deviation.
Salaam may allah guide us All into enlightment
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Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
(1) God says that we have to follow the "religion of Abraham" in 16123 and we cannot follow something that we are unaware of, therefore the practices/rites must be intact.
But what is the "religion of Abraham"? This is key.
It is assumed that "religion of Abraham" is Islam/Sunnism. What if it is not?(2) God ordered Muhammad to observe salat in the "3rd revelation" (Sura 73) which means salat must have been preserved otherwise Muhammad would not be able to observe this commandment.
But what is salat? This is key.
It is assumed that salat is namaz, and the whole argument is based on that assumption. What if it is not the ritual namaz?(3) God does not detail the rites of the religion in the Qur'an because the Qur'an only deals with matters that have been distorted such as ablution, tone of voice, and commemorating the name of God alone in the salat.
Says who? Assumption.
As the line goes in one of the action movies... "assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups".
Peace. -
Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
But what is the "religion of Abraham"? This is key.
It is assumed that "religion of Abraham" is Islam/Sunnism. What if it is not?But what is salat? This is key.
It is assumed that salat is namaz, and the whole argument is based on that assumption. What if it is not the ritual namaz?Says who? Assumption.
As the line goes in one of the action movies... "assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups".
Peace.Exactly!
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I guess Dr Rashad Khalifa made this assumption? (I remember seeing a similar article at submission.org, but he makes himself clear when he could make mistaken conclusions)
Now I found this video in the youtube channel of a member of this site named "Peace" I guess....
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbrj-BvAF8g&feature=plcpSo now if hadiths cannot be used then what proof is there what they are doing is correct?
Are their any historical data to support anything we do? (I surely like hieroglyphs now P ) -
So now if hadiths cannot be used then what proof is there what they are doing is correct?
Are their any historical data to support anything we do? (I surely like hieroglyphs now P )Peace!
Why do we assume that what they are doing is correct? We should not search for evidence to support what we do, to prove it correct. We should research and see WHETHER OR NOT what we do is correct.
I think it is very important to really go back to basics and see things with fresh eyes... which admittedly is extremely difficult. But if we have the willingness and intention, then we're on the way... step by step.
Just like, if we don't grind away the rust on the car completely, and just paint it over, then we'll soon have trouble again, or if we don't clean the wound properly before we apply a plaster, we're up for more trouble.In my humble opinion, there is no need for any definite sources of information outside the quran to explain it. We don't need more data or facts from some other text. That's pertaining to information. However, with regard to understanding, Allah can show us through ANYTHING in this world in order to make us grasp certain things in the quran. These sources, or triggers, of insights can be virtually anything... no restrictions, and they will be specific to each one of us, tailor-made so to say, and we are all different. So again, we need nothing extra beyond the quran, but Allah can use anything to teach us and make us see. The difference is that WE should not use other sources as requirements, but ALLAH can use anything as and when we need it... but that is not up to us to know or decide.
Cheers
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Peace!
Why do we assume that what they are doing is correct? We should not search for evidence to support what we do, to prove it correct. We should research and see WHETHER OR NOT what we do is correct.
I think it is very important to really go back to basics and see things with fresh eyes... which admittedly is extremely difficult. But if we have the willingness and intention, then we're on the way... step by step.
Just like, if we don't grind away the rust on the car completely, and just paint it over, then we'll soon have trouble again, or if we don't clean the wound properly before we apply a plaster, we're up for more trouble.In my humble opinion, there is no need for any definite sources of information outside the quran to explain it. We don't need more data or facts from some other text. That's pertaining to information. However, with regard to understanding, Allah can show us through ANYTHING in this world in order to make us grasp certain things in the quran. These sources, or triggers, of insights can be virtually anything... no restrictions, and they will be specific to each one of us, tailor-made so to say, and we are all different. So again, we need nothing extra beyond the quran, but Allah can use anything to teach us and make us see. The difference is that WE should not use other sources as requirements, but ALLAH can use anything as and when we need it... but that is not up to us to know or decide.
Cheers
Thank you @Zulf!
I think your answer is the best there is for all the futile disputes there are!
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Peace,
I don't mean to be rude, but I think my original question has not really been understood. Why question was not about what exactly salat is. I know there are lots of different understandings from people on this forum. I was interested in understanding what people think of the "preservation" of the salat i.e that salat was something specific passed down from generation to generation OR if it is something that is specifically detailed for us in the Qur'an, but may have been observed differently by the different communities throughout history.
My understanding is that although salat is something that previous believers observed, the Qur'an does detail every aspect of it. If my understanding is correct the question that remains is how would Muhammad have observed salat until all the details were revealed to him from God?
Hope this is a little more clear than my initial post.
Peace.
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