Translating 2:196
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peace be upon you, mq
Salaamun alaikum Idris, Grourself,
May I ask what you understand from your literal interpretation ?
shukran, brothers.
sorry it took so long to respond, ain't been on the computer inawhile, anyways the concept of alhajj is taking the debate in order to counterreact slandering against God's deen (2190-194), and umra would be the promotion of God's deen to promote the truth, so basically in order to carry this out we get signs from the guidance (an example of this is the Christians telling their followers the reading is about violence and intolerance and we get signs from the reading to prove them wrong), i'm not sure about "cuttiing off our basic" until attaining the guidance, I think it might mean don't stop our basic argument until its gotten clear across to the people, and if any from among the faithful can't participate or can't devise an argument then they should make up by abstaining, charity, or sacrifices (not animal but self sacrifice i.e. fighting in the cause of God), then when secure from the slandering then maintain promoting the debate and getting what is easy from the guidance to make up our arguments, and to those that can't find anything from the guidance to make a valid argument, as when the slandering was going on, they should abstain for three days in the debate and seven when returning (the fixed (3-10 as the word for it suggests) days in 2184, hence 7 when we return to make it complete as 2185 with the complete count), the abstaining is also for those who's family members didnt participate in the restricted acts of compliance (which is to fight against those that fight you (verbally in the debate) 2190) once you start seeing 2183-2203 are all interconnected these signs become clear as day and you'll realize all the corruption that's taken place in translation and understanding, plus the debate it speaks of is actually a large meeting to debate much like what commonly takes place today 2198-199 an example of this would be in the story of Pharoah, Moses, and the magicians inwhich they gathered to debate in front of a large crowd yet we see no examples of pilgrimage in any of the stories
what are your thoughts?
And complete the debate/challenge and the promotion/prosperity for The God. Then if in need then get what is easy from the guidance and don't cut off your principle/basic until attaining the guidance what is made lawful/permitted. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit/sick/ill or with him disturbances/injuries from his principle/basic then compensate from abstaining or charity or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion/prosperity to/towards the debate/challenge then get what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no members/family participate in the restricted/sanctioned acts of compliance/submission. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2196)
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Salaamun alaikum Idris,
Please take your time in responding. I myself do not have that much time but I do benefit immensely from our discussions.
I take your point about hajj and I'll have to think about it for a while. An immediate response which popped into my mind is that you translate 'hajj' as 'argument' whereas there is another word for 'argue' which is 'tujaddil' like 16/125.
To me, 2/183-207 is a preparation towards the establishment of the house of Allah (al-bait), which is Allah's domain on this earth as actualised by Ibrahim in 2/122-152.
I've not made my thoughts coherent at this point, even to myself by writing them down, but I'll try to break down my analysis of 2/196 for you
fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi If you are prevented from completing the hajj or umra, then send forth what is easy for you from that which will direct you towards that goal.
tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu and don't expel this from your mind until that which will direct you towards that goal reaches the place where it will effective.
faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin and whoever among you is ill or suffers a psychological problem, he should compensate by fasting or giving charity or sacrifice.
fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji and when ur secure again, complete with the umra (cultivation) towards al-hajj.
To me , 3/95-98 shows the establishing of the house via Ibrahim.
hope i've been of service and hope you will continue when u can.
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peace be upon you mq,
Salaamun alaikum Idris,
Please take your time in responding. I myself do not have that much time but I do benefit immensely from our discussions.
sure thing
I take your point about hajj and I'll have to think about it for a while. An immediate response which popped into my mind is that you translate 'hajj' as 'argument' whereas there is another word for 'argue' which is 'tujaddil' like 16/125.
I translate hajj as "debate" while i agree that jaddil is argument, jaddil is more like baseless arguing, or argument for the sake of argument as many of the disbelievers do, while hajj is "debate" which is based on reason, intellect, logic, etc. if you check all the usages of the word hajj in the reading it clearly means debate, and baseless argument is clearly diffrentiated with debate in 2197
To me, 2/183-207 is a preparation towards the establishment of the house of Allah (al-bait), which is Allah's domain on this earth as actualised by Ibrahim in 2/122-152.
I've not made my thoughts coherent at this point, even to myself by writing them down, but I'll try to break down my analysis of 2/196 for you
fa-in ohsirtum fama istaysara minaalhadyi If you are prevented from completing the hajj or umra, then send forth what is easy for you from that which will direct you towards that goal.
tahliqoo ruoosakum hattayablugha alhadyu mahillahu and don't expel this from your mind until that which will direct you towards that goal reaches the place where it will effective.
faman kana minkum mareedanaw bihi athan min ra/sihi fafidyatun min siyaminaw sadaqatin aw nusukin and whoever among you is ill or suffers a psychological problem, he should compensate by fasting or giving charity or sacrifice.
fa-itha amintum famantamattaAAa bialAAumrati ila alhajji and when ur secure again, complete with the umra (cultivation) towards al-hajj.
To me , 3/95-98 shows the establishing of the house via Ibrahim.
hope i've been of service and hope you will continue when u can.
i'll take into account your view, but if I get time I'll fully explain my view of 2183-203
thanx
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Salaamun alaikum,
I translate hajj as "debate" while i agree that jaddil is argument, jaddil is more like baseless arguing, or argument for the sake of argument as many of the disbelievers do, while hajj is "debate" which is based on reason, intellect, logic, etc. if you check all the usages of the word hajj in the reading it clearly means debate, and baseless argument is clearly diffrentiated with debate in 2197
Man, 16/125 uses 'jaadilum billati hiyaa ahsaan' (argue them with that which is more beautiful/better', so i dont think i can agree with your categorisation there. Having said, 'hujjah' in Arabic refers to 'proof or argument', so I dunno, you might be right too.
i'll take into account your view, but if I get time I'll fully explain my view of 2183-203
Yes please, looking forward to it.
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I am wondering why it would be wrong to understand the statement as is
"And when you finish the HAJJ (pilgrimage) or Umra (little pilgrimage) you wait until you have given the gift (Hadiy) before you shave your heads as a sign that the Hajj has ended. If you did not have enough money to offer the gift then you do what you can or give Sadaka or by fasting. And if you have a disease in your head (meaning scalp) that you cannot shave your head then do something else."
To me this is the clearest way to understand the Aya. It deals with specific orders relating to the end of the Pilgrimage. If we believe that the Qur'an is easy to understand and clear then this is the easiest way to understand this Ayah.
Hussein
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Peace be upon you MQ,
Man, 16/125 uses 'jaadilum billati hiyaa ahsaan' (argue them with that which is more beautiful/better', so i dont think i can agree with your categorisation there. Having said, 'hujjah' in Arabic refers to 'proof or argument', so I dunno, you might be right too.
16125 is one of the best verses to understand the clarity between hajja(debating according to the God's message)and jidala(baseless arguing).
The God says to argue with them WITH THAT WHICH IS BEST, and that would be hajja(debating using the God's message).
(683) And that (is) Our debate, We gave/brought it (to) Abraham on (to) his nation, We raise steps/stages (of) whom We will/want, that your Lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable.
A while back, I had a post in the hajj section with all of the verses of hajja and jidala listed, I am not sure if it is still there or not.
Idris, very good job bro!
(2197) ...wala jidala fee alhajji ...
no baseless arguing in the debate
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peace hlatif,
I am wondering why it would be wrong to understand the statement as is
"And when you finish the HAJJ (pilgrimage) or Umra (little pilgrimage) you wait until you have given the gift (Hadiy) before you shave your heads as a sign that the Hajj has ended. If you did not have enough money to offer the gift then you do what you can or give Sadaka or by fasting. And if you have a disease in your head (meaning scalp) that you cannot shave your head then do something else."
To me this is the clearest way to understand the Aya. It deals with specific orders relating to the end of the Pilgrimage. If we believe that the Qur'an is easy to understand and clear then this is the easiest way to understand this Ayah.
Hussein
no, not if the sign is clearly mistranslated, your's may be easy to understand (only cause of words added in there while I refrained from doing so in my translation) but its easy to understand if translated literally as well (some of my translation was probably wrong), the translation you provided is heavily influenced by ahadith traditions, there is no pilgrimage according to the reading (quran), if you look at every single sign containing the word "hajj" you will find out it clearly means debate/challenge
And complete the debate and the promotion for The God. Then if in need then get what is easy from the guidance and don't overlook your basic until attaining what is made lawful from the guidance. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit or with him disturbances from his basic then compensate from abstaining or charity or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion towards the debate then get what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no (family) members participate in the restricted acts of compliance. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2196)
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Salaams all,
did this a while back,might give you Br's a better insight into the trans - i hope,and God be with you Guy's.
according to meanings in lanes.
Hajja = He repaired or betook himself,to,or towards,much,or frequantly.
Haaj = Repairing,or betaking himself,to.
Umrun=He lived,or continued in life,long,or long time ,his life was/became
long.
Amara=He remained,continued,stayed,resided,dwelt,or abode,in a place.
Amaralkhraba=Made the ruin or waste to become in a state of good repairJadd=He was or became fortunate,or possesed of good fortune.
Haddy=way or manner of life.I think i will just translate it rather then giving any more lanes meanings here.
2196
And complete the Hajj and the staying for allah and if you are restrained then whatever is easy to obtain of the guidance/(new)manner of life/the way and do not be agile to hold your head high until reaches the guidance its alightenment and who ever is among you distempered or has annoyance in his head then (he must pay) ransom by fasting ,or be firm,or change your attention/focus,when you feel free from expectation of evil (anger) then whoever took advantage with the staying onto hajj-then whatever can be had with ease of the guidance and whoever(did)not become fortunate( to understand/accept) then fast three days in the hajj and seven when you have returned that ten in all that is for those is not his family in the presence of(who follow not) Almasjid alharam and fear allah and know that allah is severe in punishment.
Mahila=He alighted,or descended and stopped
e.t.cThe Hajj was just a condition (challenge)to the mushrikin - to surrender and learn and take on the new way - but if they carried on with law breaking living then they would be hunted and captured or killed.
See it all at surra 9.and surra 22,partly aswell.
Salaams.
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peace be upon you all,
I had a chance to work on 2196 yesterday and this is what I came up with
transliteration + literal translation side by side
Wa (and) atimmoo (complete) al hajja (the HJJ) wa (and) alAAuMRata (the 3MR) lil lahi (for God) fa-in (but if) ohsirtum (you prevented/confined) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alHaDYi (the offering/guidance) wala (and do not) taHLiQoo (cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active) ruoosakum (your head/principal) hatta (until) yablugha (reaches) alHaDYu (the offering/guidance) maHiLLahu (permitted/lawful place) faman (and whoever) kana (is) minkum (among you) MaReeDan (sick/ill) aw (or) bihi (with) athan (ailment) min (from/of) ra/sihi (head) fafidyatun (then redeem/exchange/ransom) min (from/of) SiYaMin (abstinence) aw (or) SaDaQatin (charity) aw (or) NuSuKin (observance) fa-itha (but if) amintum (safe/secure) faman (then whoever) taMaTaAAa (enjoys) bi (with/in) alAAumrati (the 3MR) ila (to) alhajji (the conference/symposium) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alhadyi (the offering/guidance) faman (and whoever) lam (not) yajid (find) fasiyamu (then abstain) thalathati (three) ayyamin (days) fee (in/on/during) alhajji (the HJJ) wa (and) sabAAatin (seven) itha (when) RaJaAAtum (you return) tilka (that) AAasharatun (is ten) kamilatun (complete) thalika (that) liman (for those) lam yakun (is not) ahluhu (his people) HaDiRee (present/near) almasjidi (the institute of acknowledging) alharami (the restriction) wa (and) ittaqoo (conscious) Allaha (The God) wa (and) iAAlamoo (know) anna (that) Allaha (The God) shadeedu (severe) al (the) AAiqabi (punishment)(the capitals in some Arabic words represent the root, if one wishes to study them further)
literal translation
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented then what is easy from the offering/guidance and do not cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active your head/principal until the offering/guidance reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of their head then redeem/exchange/ransom from abstinence or charity or observance but if secure/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then what is easy of the offering/guidance and whoever couldn't find then abstain three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return that is ten complete, that for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment.my understanding
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented (from completing it) then give what is easy of the offering and do not relieve your head (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of the head then redeem by abstinence or charity or observance but if safe/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then give what is easy of the offering and whoever couldn't find (a suitable offering) then an abstinence three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return, that is ten complete, and that is for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment.my comments
How does one find out when the offering reaches its destination? Is this possible? Try and make sure it gets there?
Is this sign saying if you cant complete give HDY, and even if you attend give HDY? This could make sense because it says if you cant complete HJJ & 3MR, that means you are there but couldn't complete it so you could make sure it gets there but may not be able to attend the conference. Once its there, then leave.
If its possible for a person not to find a suitable offering/guidance, that means its unlikely to mean guidance. How could a person not find a suitable guidance? It makes more sense for it to mean offering.
Why does it mention being ill then the specific ailment of the head? Is it because the head will be used in the HJJ? (i.e. intelligence will be needed) Is this is to rule out those physically unable AND mentally unable?
If my rendering of the text is correct, then what is the situation for a person whose people are at or near the institute of acknowledging the restriction? Could it be related to the fact that if one's people were at or near the institute, its highly unlikely one would not be able to find a suitable offering?Background reading
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3433
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2340All feedback welcome.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
Interesting.
I have a couple of questions to add to your questions .
Why or how did you come to render amara as "visit"?
How does hdy become an offering?
I get something a little different from this sign and I think it is referring to the completed count of days in the previous signs.
Great effort.
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peace Grourself,
Thanks for the feedback.
I chose "visit" based on the evidence of the root 3MR
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.403.htmIf there is evidence to the contrary, then please bring it forth. 3MR essentially means to enliven (which leads to inhabit, to visit etc).
Same with HDY, based on its root usage, with specific reference to several signs (I dont have my concordance with me at the moment, but if I remember I will list them when I get back). It essentially means something of value given (which leads to gift, guidance, offering etc).
Please give us your translation so I can see your point of view.
Wakas
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peace all,
I recommend reading some common/traditional translations. They attempt to explain away the problems caused by their own translation of 2196 in various ways. I recommend reading Asad's note on www.quranix.net (lookup 2196) and also here
http//www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=2&verse=189&to=196Here are some of the problems in brief
- from reply 71 http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.60
Thus, the obvious question that comes to mind is, does an ailment of the head (e.g. baldness, injury on head, surgery on head etc) prevent one from giving what is easy of the offering and ensuring it reaches its proper place? The answer is of course, it doesn't. So, let's imagine the following scenario
A bald man or person with injury on head cannot complete the HJJ/3MR, but they are able to give what is easy of the offering and ensure it reaches its proper place. So they do this. Sounds ok so far, BUT not if the person actually continues to read the rest of 2196, because according to it, if he cant shave the head once the offering reaches its proper place he is meant to redeem by abstinence or charity or observance, so is he meant to do these things as well as giving the offering? Is AQ discriminating against bald people, those with injury on their head, sensitive scalp, head surgery, those wearing a toupe etc. and getting them to do more than a person with hair on their head? Of course not. Such notions are illogical and have no basis in AQ. The only other option is to say if he cant shave the head for whatever reason, then he skips giving what is easy of the offering and goes straight to abstinence or charity or observance, but of course, this has the same problem in that it treats such a person differently for no obvious practical reason.
The above would prioritise head shaving rather than giving of the gift which is nonsensical unless it can be explained.
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if you give an offering how do you find out if it has reached its permitted place THEN shave your head? e.g. if one is ill I assume you give the offering to someone else to take, do you then wait for them to return and tell you "yes it reached there, you can now shave your head"? Really?
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what do females do? shave or cut or nothing?
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the word "hair" is not in the verse. No mention of what to do if one has no hair, as this is not necessarily a harm/ailment of the head.
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the part at the end is translated differently "...this relates to him who does not live near the Inviolable House of Worship...". Read several translations to see the variance.
Putting the above aside, the word RAS commonly translated as "head" could mean something else, so by process of elimination what could it be?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ra-Alif-Siin = head, head/chief/commander/ruler/governor/prince, strike on the head, set any one over, become high in rank/condition, highest or uppermost part, the capital/principal of money, the beginning or first part, numerous and strong company of people.
ras n.m. (pl. ru'us) 2196, 2196, 2279, 56, 7150, 1236, 1241, 1443, 1751, 194, 2094, 2165, 2219, 3212, 3765, 4448, 4827, 635It could only mean physical head, mind, principal sum, chief - based on classical arabic dictionaries, and reasoning.
We have already discussed the problems with physical head.
No classical arabic dictionary nor Quran use this word to mean "mind", as far as i know.
principal sums doesn't fit well.
Thus, the only meaning left with any credibility is "chief".
As a side note it just so happens that the exact same usage of "rusakum" (your heads/chiefs) is in 4827. And it just so happens that early Islamic history discusses a formation of a confederation of sorts at the late stages of Muhammad's life and the uniting of tribes under one "roof" so to speak, and some such as Fred Donner imply the founding of a monotheist/believers movement.Just something for you to ponder.
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Peace,
How could a person not find a suitable guidance? It makes more sense for it to mean offering.
"Fa man lam yajid" should be understood in the same light as the preceding phrase "fama istaysara mina al hadyi" - whatever is easy of al hadyi. If we make al hadyi "offering", we're left with "then whatever is easy of the offering". Are we being instructed to give an offering or take an offering from the hajj? Like when you go on a conference, they give out freebies and goody bags. Are we being told to take what is easy from the hajj offering? Why is it necessarily an offering from you? This isn't evident from the text, as far as I can see. It could be an offering from the hajj itself.
With this in mind, I consider al hadyi to be the guidance or the offering by the hajj itself, not an offering from you. So how can one not find a suitable guidance? What is suitable depends on whether you've understood it, and whether it can be implemented in your community. If you found nothing you understood from the challenge/symposium or nothing is relevant to your community (in a practical sense), then there is nothing suitable for you to take.
If my rendering of the text is correct, then what is the situation for a person whose people are at or near the institute of acknowledging the restriction? Could it be related to the fact that if one's people were at or near the institute, its highly unlikely one would not be able to find a suitable offering?
Those communities who have established amah or are very near to amah, are already living largely within the deen. So the guidance offering of the hajj will be relevant and practical. A people who are not present/approaching amah (i.e. have yet to establish amah) may not have the foundation in place for the hajj/debate/symposium to have practical relevance. These people should abstain and continue to try and establish amah.
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Peace
My translation
2/196 And fulfil the hajj and the umra for Allah. But if you are restricted then what is suitable/easy of the guidance . And do not remove your heads until reaches the guidance to a disposition of lawful . Then whoever was among you ill or has with him a harm of his head, then substitute from abstinence or charity or devotion . So when you are certain , thus whoever benefited with the umra to the hajj - then whatever is easy/suitable of the guidance . But whoever can not find then abstain three days in al hajj and seven when you return. This is ten in full. That is for those whose folk are not present/near to al masjid al haram. And be conscious of Allah and know that Allah is strong in following up.
My interpretive translation
2/196 And fulfil the hajj and the umra for Allah. But if you are restricted in understanding then (take) what is suitable/easy of the guidance (to implement). And do not relieve your minds (i.e. do not stop trying to understand the challenge/symposium) until you are convinced the guidance is lawful (i.e. you are happy the guidance is relevant and practical to pursue). Then whoever was among you ill or has with him a harm of his head, then substitute from abstinence or charity or devotion (this is so you do not harm your society by trying to implement policies you do not understand). So when you are certain (that you've understood), thus whoever benefited with the umra to the hajj - then (take) whatever is easy/suitable of the guidance and implement. But whoever can not find anything suitable/practical to implement, then abstain three days in al hajj and seven when you return. This is ten in full. That is for those whose folk are not present/near to al masjid al haram. And be conscious of Allah and know that Allah is strong in following up.
My comments
I understand the hajj to be a process of challenging the system and the truth, to maintain a working society and to not allow corruption or apathy to damage al bait. Thus, the challenge requires a sound mind because the people are expected to implement the policies elucidated at the hajj in their communities. If you are one who does not understand, then you must continue to try and understand and NOT try and implement it until the guidance/policy has become lawful in your own mind. This is to stop people upholding things they do not understand, which can cause great harm. This is also in line with 17/36.
If you have understood the challenge/debate, then take whatever you find easy according to your ability and get to work. If you have a harm to your head i.e. you can not understand or you have severe misgivings about the result of the challenge, then you should abstain, or be charitable of devote yourself to good. When this harm of your head goes and you have become certain in your understanding and approval of the challenge/debate, then take whatever you found easy/suitable according to your ability to implement.
If out of the conclusions reached at the hajj, none are practical for your community or are not applicable, then abstain. This is also for people who have yet to establish amah.
