New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?
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Salam,
I think I said something in simple words.
You said "The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B.".
Allah the Exalted has taken away a person who is His Servant from his presence location A to another location B.You further say the man did not go physically.
Do you mean that Servant was picked up while asleep at his location A and transported to location B where he was still and remained assleep?
He could be right , it may not be a physical journey.
The sura was called Bani Israil and now they have changed it to Al Isra-i wonder why?!
The Sura is about the Children of Israil, but starts with the actions of Moses- i would say.
171
Glorified who set forth His slave by loss of power and prosperity from submitting to haram to submitting in extreme distance of it whereof we blessed his strength to show him of Our Signs He the All-Hearer the All-Seer.17,2
And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a Guide to the Children of Israel, (commanding) "Take not other than Me as Disposer of (your) affairs."17.3
O ye that are sprung from those whom We carried (in the Ark) with Noah! Verily he was a devotee most grateful.17.4
And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)17.5
When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.It is all black and white- or is it just to me?
Moses story.
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And he entered the city unexpectedly, without being noticed by the people. He found in it two men who were fighting, one was from his own race, and the other was from his enemy?s. So the one who was from his own race called on him for help against his enemy, whereby Moses punched him, killing him. He said ?This is from the work of the devil; he is an enemy that clearly misleads.?
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He said ?My Lord, I have wronged my soul, so forgive me.? He then forgave him, for He is the Forgiver, the Merciful.
peace
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salaam Mazhar,
Do you mean that Servant was picked up while asleep at his location A and transported to location B where he was still and remained assleep?
Firstly, have you read the article? If you have, then you will have noted that I did not state nor imply the above. What you are saying would still be physical, as sister Ayisha pointed out.
Rather than discussing what I did not say, let's rather discuss what I actually said. This will be more beneficial.
Quotes from article
Notably, in the same chapter, in 1793, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 635. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.
The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
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In my opinion he astral travelled in his sleep. The notion of it being a physical journey has never sit right with me. Whether it refers to muhammed or moses thats another point of discussion.
PEACE
I was just about to say astral projection comes to mind for me too. peace
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Prince/Ayisha
I think Wakas made a good point in terms of it not being a physical journey
Notably, in the same chapter, in 1793, the messenger clearly implies he cannot ascend in the heaven/sky and is only a human. Not only does this rule out the physical journey/ascension theory, but implies if he were to ascend physically it would make him other than human which is the very opposite of Quran's message. Also see 635. Further, a physical journey has not been described using such terms in AQ elsewhere as far as I am aware, so we can safely rule out the physical journey option.
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salaam Mazhar,
Firstly, have you read the article? If you have, then you will have noted that I did not state nor imply the above. What you are saying would still be physical, as sister Ayisha pointed out.
Rather than discussing what I did not say, let's rather discuss what I actually said. This will be more beneficial.
Quotes from article
You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this
The use of "bi" and "ila" in 171 suggest God took with/by His servant from A to B. Since we have ruled out a physical journey, this only leaves a spiritual journey and/or vision/dream or some other understanding. The use of "night" may indicate during sleep, i.e. a dream/vision.
Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.
We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
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You know I start only when I have read your article. Yousaid this
Spiritual journey, vision, dream or what Prince says astral projection, do not go by your words "God took his servant from A to B".
Timing is also mentioned "during the Night". Preposition "bi" means with, along with; preposition "Min" means the departure location and Preposition "Ila" means towards a location which is the destination of the journey during the hours of night.Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
Qur'aan is very comprehensive, and worded very guarding, since Allah knew people will try play with His words.
We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.
peace
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salaam all,
Whether it refers to muhammed or moses thats another point of discussion.
This issue is addressed in the article.
Purpose is also mentioned "" "so that We might make him see with eyes".
You seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also
When God shows them to you as being few in your dream...
The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.
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You seem to claim it is with physical eyes, and whilst this is correct generally, the exact same word is used for dream also
When God shows them to you as being few in your dream...
Salamun Alaika,
The likely reason for the usage is that even in our dreams, generally speaking we use the eyes to see, or at least I do, I dont know about others.
The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.
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There is difference in both. When this verb is used not in real terms, it takes two objects as in 843-doubly transitive. When in real terms it is singly transitive.
The period of sleep relating to dreams is called Rapid Eye Movement sleep--supporting your using of eyes when dreaming.
Interesting claim, however...
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Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?
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Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?
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Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?
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Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
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Interesting claim, however...
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Can you provide evidence that dreams are only possible with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep?
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Can you provide evidence that the rapid eye movement is due to the sleeper using their eyes to "see" in their dream?
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Does your theory for when the verb is and is not "real terms" hold for ALL its occurrences?
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Does your theory only apply to this verb or others also? If so, can you elaborate.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
Please study about REM sleep. Much reasearch has since been made on this. It will be available in all encylopedias on line.
Rest, I incorrectly quoted about it but before I corrected it perhaps your response went up.
The point was to indicate that when this form IV is used to see-expereince something during sleep it is specifically mentioned. It is same in 843 and 37102. Sorry for inconvenience.
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According to you, what are the two objects in 843 for this verb?
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According to you, what is the object of this verb in 171?
I was preparing reply for Ayisha, your querry will help.
In 843 two objects are second person, masculine, singular, accusative state; first object and is the second object; third person; masculine; plural in accusative state. Allah the Exalted is the Subject of verb, and verb is form IV, masculine, singular, mood indicative.
In 171 red is the first object, third person, masculine, singular, in accusative state referring back to sincere allegiant of Him the Exalted. Second Object of verb is elided as manifestly indicated by the following prepositional phrase.
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So if this was a physical journey Muhammed will have met God as the words imply/say God TOOK him, so God was WITH him physically and TOOK him physically, which is what you are saying.
peace
Salamun alaiki,
Strictly adhering to the accepted principles of translating a text, and rules of Arabic grammar-morphology and syntax laid by learned Grammarians, let me try.
Allah the Exalted the Infinitely Glorious, Whose approval is the focus of all effort, is the One Who arranged the travel along with His sincere Allegiant-Muhammad on a journey during some part of night from within Al Masjid al Haram-the Sacred Mosque around Ka'aba in Mecca, towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque.
That Mosque is the One whose surroundings We have perpetuated and blessed.
The purpose of ascending him in the direction towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque was that We might show him visually the biggest sign from the Miscellany of Our Demonstrative Signs-Physical realm.
This is a fact that He the Exalted is the One Who is eternally the Hearer and is of Vision .is a transitive Verb. It needs an Object. It is elided-not mentioned. What was that object used to carry him, it is not yet known-UFO.
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There were so many contradiction in the notion of physical journey. The notion cannot sit down in the heart of critical minded people. If it denote a physical journey why at nihgt? Then will this notion not contradict verse 1793.
We are not discussing whether physical journey seems possible to someone or not according to one's present level of knowledge, but are discussing what is stated in the Arabic text.
One should also keep critically checking since it might have become atilted.
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salaam mazhar,
Thanks for answering questions 5 & 6. If you have time, you can try 1-4 also.
What are the two objects in 37102?
So readers can weight up the information, you are saying
God took His servant and went on a physical journey with him, on an unidentified object (UFO) to somewhere in space/heaven/sky, to show him "the biggest sign" which you have not identified/elaborated.
Actually, I just thought of something, if it were using physical eyes, then at night, one's vision would be much poorer, so I assume you'd have to assume that whatever he was shown was lit up somehow or something else.
In any case, readers can weigh up your rendition and answer compared to what I wrote in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html -
Salamun alaiki,
Strictly adhering to the accepted principles of translating a text, and rules of Arabic grammar-morphology and syntax laid by learned Grammarians, let me try.
Allah the Exalted the Infinitely Glorious, Whose approval is the focus of all effort, is the One Who arranged the travel along with His sincere Allegiant-Muhammad on a journey during some part of night from within Al Masjid al Haram-the Sacred Mosque around Ka'aba in Mecca, towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque.
That Mosque is the One whose surroundings We have perpetuated and blessed.
The purpose of ascending him in the direction towards the Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque was that We might show him visually the biggest sign from the Miscellany of Our Demonstrative Signs-Physical realm.
This is a fact that He the Exalted is the One Who is eternally the Hearer and is of Vision .is a transitive Verb. It needs an Object. It is elided-not mentioned. What was that object used to carry him, it is not yet known-UFO.
So God took Muhammed from Mecca to "Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque"
Have I lost the plot here?
The verse says Al Aqsa, whatever that means your translation is not saying that unless you refer to that as Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque, altitude is height so wherever this is by your translation is somewhere high in altitude.
So irrelevant as to whether it was physical, in your translation where is this Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque?
peace
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So God took Muhammed from Mecca to "Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque"
Have I lost the plot here?
The verse says Al Aqsa, whatever that means your translation is not saying that unless you refer to that as Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque, altitude is height so wherever this is by your translation is somewhere high in altitude.
So irrelevant as to whether it was physical, in your translation where is this Extreme Distant Altitude Mosque?
peace
Salamun alaiki,
No fault of yours. Even some scholars do not care what the word is. It is not the name of some Mosque. It is description with Elative Noun.
Adjectival Phrase Location Noun Definite; singular; Masculine; genitive. It is modified by which is the masculine Superlative noun. When prefixed with definite article, it is used as Superlative, whereby it must be in agreement in gender and number between it and that which it describes. Here, it is used as adjectival portrayal of "The Mosque". One will find in almost all the translations that it is treated as a Superlative signifying its meanings as "the Remote; the Far distant; the Farthest; the Most distant; Remotest". This Superlative Noun is made from Root " ".
The basic perception infolded in the Root, in the words of Ibne Faris is
That, it leads to the perception of far distance and deportation to far away, utmost limit. Lane's Lexicon signified the perception of proceeding to extremities; with reference to drinking water it conveys meaning of drinking in the manner of exhausting the last drop, again reflecting extremity in any action. He emphasized its meanings as reaching and attaining the utmost by referring to various words made from it.
The fact of reaching or attaining the utmost has the built in perception of elevation and altitude. As mentioned earlier also, the Grand Qur'aan, for itself is the best Lexicon. It exposes the perception and meanings of most of its words in a picturesque manner by relationships and contrasts. The basic perception and meanings of the Root are unfolded at the very first place of its occurrencewhen/that day you people were on the lower level corner, and they/the approaching army of infidels of Mecca were on far farther highest altitude corner, while the Merchant Caravan was relatively at lower level ground than you people.
