Shahr/month in the light of the quran
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salam br idolfree,
salat is not at the same EXACT time because obviously that would be very inconvenient for some people to wake up 3 times during their sleep to pray and then go the whole day without praying. Obviously DAILY schedules cannot coincide precisely...
but even despite this... an amazing fact is that the aathaan goes around the world. Ever thought about that? When it is time for salat and athaan is given in one location, earth continues to rotate, each zone calls its athaan until it goes around the world. I think that's amazing. A unified Muslim ummah with an athaan that can be heard around the world like a domino effect. Same goes for breaking fast (iftaar). The iftaar that goes around the world! )
Compare that to the bizarre notion of everyone above the equator fast one part of the year, everyone below fast another part. That IS splitting the ummah CLEARLY in half. That is an unacceptable policy. AND, in my opinion, it has little or no support from the Quran either.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
That sounded very fancy, but the TRUTH is that salaat times ARE NOT the same, likewise, the timing for abstaining does not need to be the same either. The "dominoe effect" excuse you gave just does not work. Further, there is no ritualistic call to salaat, calling to salaat is simpy telling others to maintain thier salaat, not posing for the cameras and singing.
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salam idolfree,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat? That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
wassalam
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Peace be upon you Shuiab,
so you dont believe in the physical aspect of salat?
If you mean PHYSICALLY opening the book that has been called "Quran", and PHYSICALLY moving my eyes across the page, then yes, it is physical. But if you mean Physically getting on the ground, then no, that is not supported by this reading(quran).
That is another discussion... i'm not going to follow your little red herrings you like to plant in every conversation.
Let me know when you are ready to discuss it. Please let the red herring comments rest, they distract from the debate.
the point is that you dont want to physically establish salat, and you want to split the ummah in half for fasting... i dont.
Nonsense. Fisrt, PROVE the traditional salaat before you start slinging accusations.
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
You act like the UMMAH is what the sunnis do!! It is THEY who devised the sect, and we are all trying to escape it, yet you want us to remain in that sect. So keep doing what your fathers did, that is up to you, I know better and can prove it.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
So is salaat split in 5? You need to have patience and do more studying and less "just believing".
If you are going to be so narrow-minded that you can't understand why someone across the globe won't wake up 3 times at night to pray... then what else can i tell you. i am sure my points are well taken by those who are actually looking for the answer and not just sticking to their guns.
Yes, it is only a matter of time before the insults come You will ALWAYS have doubt when you thinnk about how salaat times are different around tthe world, but you want abstaining to be the same.
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Peace brother Shuaib, all,
ANYONE, who purports ideas that split the ummah is damaging the ummah. Pure and simple.
- And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you That ye may be guided.
As I have pointed out, there is overwhelming evidence and reasons AGAINST using the summer solstice for ramadan... just ONE of them is the fact that ummah would be split into 2 for fasting (there are OTHER reasons too). There IS meaning to doing things together... physical salat (which you dont believe in) and fasting.
There is no doubt that we should not divide ourselves (for example into sects). However, unity is a natural outcome of holding to the rope of Allah NOT of holding to the fantasies and falsehoods of sectarians.
Despite abstaining in the same time every year, we see that the so-called "ummah" (whatever that means) that you refer to is FAR from united and hence abstaining on the same time didn't help anything. Similarly, sectarians can be seen bowing and putting their forehead on the floor at the same time and yet they are far from united and even if they stand on their head or do any other acrobatics at the same time, I doubt that it will unite them.
Therefore the only thing you prove by appealing to the unity of the so-called "ummah" is that you have been listening to such empty slogans for a long time and you are simply blindly repeating them.
The ONLY way to unity is to hold to the rope of The God, the Truth wherever that leads us and NOT by holding to sectrian false traditions.
Salam,
Ayman
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salam br ayman,
nice to hear from you again. however, i'm going to have to dispel some incorrect notions you have about what i am saying, as well as perhaps some faulty logic.
it is true that the ummah is far from united. but you cannot simply conclude that since the ummah is not united, therefore anything they do is wrong.
If a clock is dismantled and each of the pieces is laid on the table... well damn, the clock is not going to work but that does not mean that each of the pieces is flawed... it's just that the pieces aren't put together in a way that will produce the desired results.
the rituals performed by muslims today are unfortunately just that, rituals and nothing more. they have a purpose, but the purpose is lost and only the acts now remain. But do not condemn each of the acts because it is not in a working system... army drills are important in strengthening the army and preparing them for challenges... but when the army is disbanded and disunited, do not condemn the drills... there's nothing wrong with the drills, it's something wrong with the army.
hopefully i have demonstrated to you what i mean, and that i am not just calling for empty slogans and "blindly" repeating them.
Ramadan, salat, and other aspects of islam are parts of the system that unfortunately are laid on the table.. separate pieces, with their functions lost since the clock itself is dismantled... army drills that are performed by individuals instead of an army, without a sense of what the drill is for or how it will be applied.
Our unity will inshallah, develop through adhering to the message of the Quran... and the message of the Quran is NOT a message that should create factions in the ummah... it should eradicate them. Any interpretations which lead to factions cannot be right.
wassalam
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Salam brother Shuaib,
it is true that the ummah is far from united. but you cannot simply conclude that since the ummah is not united, therefore anything they do is wrong.
You are the one who said that people must abstain on the same time to be "united". I simply demonstrated that what you are saying is false because people who do abstain on the same time are NOT united. Hence, abstaining or not abstaining on the same time is irrelevant to unity.
If a clock is dismantled and each of the pieces is laid on the table... well damn, the clock is not going to work but that does not mean that each of the pieces is flawed... it's just that the pieces aren't put together in a way that will produce the desired results.
Your clock is not only broken but even when assembled, it gives the wrong time. Hence, it is totally useless like all sectarian rituals.
the rituals performed by muslims today are unfortunately just that, rituals and nothing more.
Rituals are "rituals". What a momentous discovery
they have a purpose, but the purpose is lost and only the acts now remain.
If they have a purpose then they stop being a ritual and they become a process. A proces has input, output, and a purpose. For example, the "salat"/learning process has input (the great reading), output (hearing and obeying), and purpose (rememberance of The God).
On the other hand, as you made the discovery above, a ritual is just a ritual. It is not connected to purpose. Hence, rituals do not change in order for example to better achieve the purpose. On the other hand, a process is connected to purpose and hence must be continuously improved to better achieve the purpose.
But do not condemn each of the acts because it is not in a working system... army drills are important in strengthening the army and preparing them for challenges... but when the army is disbanded and disunited, do not condemn the drills... there's nothing wrong with the drills, it's something wrong with the army.
If the drills are just making 2, 4, 4, 3, 4 daily movements with a sword then the drills are indeed wrong and useless. That is why modern armies change their drills every year and now involve learning information technology, remote sensing technology, etc.
hopefully i have demonstrated to you what i mean, and that i am not just calling for empty slogans and "blindly" repeating them.
Besides demonstrating that you would not make a good army general, you have confirmed that you have been deceived by those empty slogans of unity. You have also demonstrated that you don't know that unity is an effect and not a cause or an end in itself. It is an effect of holding on to the rope of The God, the Truth. Holding to the rope of The God is the ONLY thing we should strive to. After that, unity will naturally result amongst those who have faith.
Ramadan, salat, and other aspects of islam are parts of the system that unfortunately are laid on the table.. separate pieces, with their functions lost since the clock itself is dismantled... army drills that are performed by individuals instead of an army, without a sense of what the drill is for or how it will be applied.
If you know what those terms "ramadan" and "salat" mean then please translate them.
Our unity will inshallah, develop through adhering to the message of the Quran... and the message of the Quran is NOT a message that should create factions in the ummah... it should eradicate them. Any interpretations which lead to factions cannot be right.
I hear sectarians all the time saying that we should "adhere to the message of the Quran" but this is nothing more than an empty slogan because they in fact adhere to the so-called "ummah". Your logic demonstrates how the concept of "ijma3"/popular concensus came about. You assume that an interpretation that would fall in line with the majority is the correct one. The fact is that what you are proposing is the well-known logical fallacy of "appeal to popularity". I am sorry but no reasonable person should base anything on a logical fallacy, no matter how popular.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salams ayman,
i dont know what i've done to you that you feel compelled to try and prove me wrong even if it means purposely misunderstanding what i am trying to say. are we playing the game of lawyers here or are we trying to be constructive?
I mentioned rituals, but i think you know perfectly well what my intention was. Waking up in the morning and brushing your teeth can be described as a ritual, since it is a routine action done in the similar way each day...but it has a purpose too. When I said that the rituals have become just rituals, perhaps i was being vague but the meaning should have been clear to you... but if you want to play the game of lawyers then i will just be more careful how i phrase things. What I meant was that the rituals at one time had purpose and were part of a working system... but the meaning was lost and now they are purposeless rituals.
You are the one who said that people must abstain on the same time to be "united".
Bro, again are you playing the game of a lawyer? It is perfectly clear what I intended... and my intention was not to say that fasting at the same time MAGICALLY results in perfect harmony.
My point was that BREAKING up the fast into 2 sections for various people DAMAGES unity.
Your clock is not only broken but even when assembled, it gives the wrong time. Hence, it is totally useless like all sectarian rituals.
Do you ever just get the point? Did you even understand the analogy I was giving? Or are you just going to play games with the analogy i presented in order to clarify my points.
If the drills are just making 2, 4, 4, 3, 4 daily movements with a sword then the drills are indeed wrong and useless. That is why modern armies change their drills every year and now involve learning information technology, remote sensing technology, etc.
Again, playing the game of a lawyer. By drill OBVIOUSLY i meant a drill that prepares for battle, WHATEVER that may be. The whole point was that these things you want to dismiss, they are just that... important drills, but there have been factions already created based on OTHER things... so even though the fast is kept, because there already are factions, it will not result in the appropriate results OR its results will be greatly diminished.
Anyway, you can respond when you calm down and decide to have a constructive discussion. You ended your email that I was appealing to popularity etc etc, a ridiculous claim.
All I said was that you cannot throw away all the pieces of the clock just because it's not working. Just because the clock is stopped, it is not a license to condemn every part of it for being faulty.
IN OTHER WORDS, if you are going to claim that any particular ritual is seriously flawed... you cannot use our present DISUNITY as an EXCUSE to do it... because that can be a manifestation based on many other serious problems, like leaving the Quran and adhering more to hadith and not using their minds and closing off ijtihaad and making bid'a forbidden and scholar worship and peer-worship etc etc etc there are SO many reasons for disunity... and to make the argument that since we are disunited clearly the way we fast is incorrect, is a totally fallacious illogical argument. It might be a true statement, but you're arriving at that statement through a fallacious illogical argument. THAT was my point, my lawyer friend. (you didn't explicitly make this claim, but that is exactly what you are implying with your tirade on rituals). THAT was the point of the analogy.
Find a better argument (i.e. one that is logical), that's the bottom line.
wassalam
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Salam brother Shuaib,
i dont know what i've done to you that you feel compelled to try and prove me wrong even if it means purposely misunderstanding what i am trying to say. are we playing the game of lawyers here or are we trying to be constructive?
I don't know you and I can only understand you by what you say here. It is not my problem that what you say is illogical. If you take demanding logical arguments and exposing illogical arguments as "playing a game of lawyer" then please tell the readers of this forum what you would like them to do. Should I simply agree to your illogical arguments for the sake of "unity"? Of course not, and I wouldn't want you to agree to any illogical arguments of mine either. Appeal to unity and popularity are NOT logical arguments and that is a fact. It is not my problem that you take things personally and feel offended when I point this fact out to you.
I mentioned rituals, but i think you know perfectly well what my intention was. Waking up in the morning and brushing your teeth can be described as a ritual, since it is a routine action done in the similar way each day...but it has a purpose too.
No it is not a ritual. It is a tooth cleaning process. Hence, it is not the same as 100 years ago. People now use electric toothbrushes and Fluoride toothpaste. In the future, the way people brush their teeth will be totally different.
When I said that the rituals have become just rituals, perhaps i was being vague but the meaning should have been clear to you... but if you want to play the game of lawyers then i will just be more careful how i phrase things. What I meant was that the rituals at one time had purpose and were part of a working system... but the meaning was lost and now they are purposeless rituals.
Rituals don't have a purpose. A process has a purpose. Hence, rituals are static and mechanical while a process is dynamic and involves understanding.
Bro, again are you playing the game of a lawyer? It is perfectly clear what I intended... and my intention was not to say that fasting at the same time MAGICALLY results in perfect harmony.
My point was that BREAKING up the fast into 2 sections for various people DAMAGES unity.
Your point is baseless. The only thing that can result in unity is holding on to the rope of The God and the only thing that can break unity is not holding on to the rope of The God, the Truth.
You were unable to show any evidence from the great reading that the abstinence must be done at the same time and hence you resort to empty slogans, appeal to unity and appeal to popularity.
Do you ever just get the point? Did you even understand the analogy I was giving? Or are you just going to play games with the analogy i presented in order to clarify my points.
Your analogy is valid and I just demonstrated using your analogy that the whole can only be as good as the parts. If the parts are bad then the whole will inevitably be bad. This is a common analogy part vs whole (in this case of a clock). Again, it is not my problem that you don't understand the implications of your own analogy.
Again, playing the game of a lawyer. By drill OBVIOUSLY i meant a drill that prepares for battle, WHATEVER that may be.
Exactly, hence the drill changes and continuously improve to win the battle. You don't just keep doing the same 2,4,4,3,4 mechnical routine. If you disagree then tell us why 2,4,4,3,4 and why not 4,4,2,5,6?
The whole point was that these things you want to dismiss, they are just that... important drills, but there have been factions already created based on OTHER things... so even though the fast is kept, because there already are factions, it will not result in the appropriate results OR its results will be greatly diminished.
If they are so important then why are those who are diligently doing it losing the battle (to use your army drills analogy). Their "drills" doesn't prohibit them from evil. The fact is that the purpose of abstinance is not your fantacized unity.
Anyway, you can respond when you calm down and decide to have a constructive discussion. You ended your email that I was appealing to popularity etc etc, a ridiculous claim.
All I said was that you cannot throw away all the pieces of the clock just because it's not working. Just because the clock is stopped, it is not a license to condemn every part of it for being faulty.
You are the one who brough this analogy. Now you are not happy when I point out the fact that a clock is only as good as its parts.
IN OTHER WORDS, if you are going to claim that any particular ritual is seriously flawed... you cannot use our present DISUNITY as an EXCUSE to do it...
I am not the one who brought the EXCUSE of unity or disunity. My arguments were strictly based on the great reading and physical archeological evidence as confirmed by the great reading. YOU are the one who brought the bogus excuse of unity into the discussion.
because that can be a manifestation based on many other serious problems, like leaving the Quran and adhering more to hadith and not using their minds and closing off ijtihaad and making bid'a forbidden and scholar worship and peer-worship etc etc etc there are SO many reasons for disunity... and to make the argument that since we are disunited clearly the way we fast is incorrect, is a totally fallacious illogical argument. It might be a true statement, but you're arriving at that statement through a fallacious illogical argument. THAT was my point, my lawyer friend. (you didn't explicitly make this claim, but that is exactly what you are implying with your tirade on rituals). THAT was the point of the analogy.
Like those that you criticizee, you too are leaving the great reading, which tells you to abstain during the "shahr" of "ramadan"/extreme heat for the sake of bogus unity.
As for your slogans of unity and clock analogies, you are the one who brought them not me. It is not my problem that those analogies actually refute your argument and hence, you ended up refuting your own argument.
Find a better argument (i.e. one that is logical), that's the bottom line.
My only advice, is find an argument based on the truth from the great reading instead of empty but popular slogans that never guided anyone.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salams ayman,
just labelling my argument as illogical proves nothing.
No it is not a ritual. It is a tooth cleaning process. Hence, it is not the same as 100 years ago. People now use electric toothbrushes and Fluoride toothpaste. In the future, the way people brush their teeth will be totally different.
Rituals don't have a purpose. A process has a purpose. Hence, rituals are static and mechanical while a process is dynamic and involves understanding.
Ok, so now we are having a debate on the English word ritual. Good grief.
ritual
noun {C or U}
a set of fixed actions and sometimes words performed regularly, especially as part of a ceremony
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Coffee and the newspaper are part of my morning ritual.
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The birds were performing a complex mating ritual.
http//www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/ritual
I used ritual in THIS sense. Ok??? Rituals CAN have purpose... it's an English word that can be used to refer to actions with purpose that have become ROUTINE.
Your point is baseless. The only thing that can result in unity is holding on to the rope of The God and the only thing that can break unity is not holding on to the rope of The God, the Truth.
Here is where you are playing your games. I said that breaking the fast into 2 sections DAMAGES unity. And this is your response?
Let's face it... you just dont want to come out and say it but I will say it for you. What you believe, but for some odd reason are reluctant to just come out and say it clearly... is that if the "ummah" is ALREADY unified, then fasting in 2 groups will not damage the unity and your meaning for ramadan can thus be accepted.
The reason you are not coming out and saying it (i surmise) is because the mere fact of having to state it suggests that it is an action that can damage unity.
But unity is a dynamic concept, not a static one. Each aspect of Islam and it's principles/duties PROMOTE this unity... and there is no reason whatsoever to break up Muslims into 2 groups for fasting. But that is another discussion which has already been beaten to death.
Your analogy is valid and I just demonstrated using your analogy that the whole can only be as good as the parts.
You are the one who brough this analogy. Now you are not happy when I point out the fact that a clock is only as good as its parts.
You missed the entire point of the analogy. The analogy was meant to point out your faulty logic. Have you become THAT fixated that you can't even be expected to understand a simple analogy... you are getting carried away with the analogy and not answering the POINT of the analogy.
The POINT was that your logic is faulty... the logic which states that since the clock isn't working all the parts are garbage. Do you understand that this is a totally fallacious argument?? Can you acknowledge this point before you go about playing games with analogies.
If you disagree then tell us why 2,4,4,3,4 and why not 4,4,2,5,6?
Do you even know what you are saying? You yourself are claiming that Ramadan is timed on the summer solstice, and that the ummah would fast in 2 different groups. How is this all of a sudden dynamic and changing? That is JUST as fixed a principle as Ramadan occuring according to a lunar calendar, except that the ummah would fast in 1 group, not 2.
If they are so important then why are those who are diligently doing it losing the battle (to use your army drills analogy). Their "drills" doesn't prohibit them from evil. The fact is that the purpose of abstinance is not your fantacized unity.
Bro, it's a simple concept really. I dont know why it's so hard to get a simple point across. Doing one thing right, is not going to negate doing 100 things wrong. Fighting and bickering and worshipping ancestors, and then coming together to fast as one... heck it's better than nothing, but it's not going to "win the battle." Is this so hard to understand? NO ONE is saying that fasting as one nation will cure ALL our mistakes.
But you are bent on saying this because it aids your cause... you're desperate to prove that since ramadan/fasting the way I have described does not result in unity, therefore it is wrong. And of course then by DEFAULT, your idea would be considered valid (which you apparently avoid talking about directly since it clearly divides a group into 2). This is a real slick/devious way of talking about straightforward things.
wassalam
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Peace brother Shuaib,
Bro, it's a simple concept really. I dont know why it's so hard to get a simple point across. Doing one thing right, is not going to negate doing 100 things wrong. Fighting and bickering and worshipping ancestors, and then coming together to fast as one... heck it's better than nothing, but it's not going to "win the battle." Is this so hard to understand? NO ONE is saying that fasting as one nation will cure ALL our mistakes.
But you are bent on saying this because it aids your cause... you're desperate to prove that since ramadan/fasting the way I have described does not result in unity, therefore it is wrong. And of course then by DEFAULT, your idea would be considered valid (which you apparently avoid talking about directly since it clearly divides a group into 2). This is a real slick/devious way of talking about straightforward things.
Notice how once again you don't heed my advice and hence utterly fail to support your arguments from the great reading. You are in fact ignoring the great reading (see 2185) and the clear Arabic meaning of the word "ramadhan" in favor of following the misguided majority. You seem to think that the most important thing is to unite with the majority hypocrites and idolaters. It is not thus surprising then that like them you forget about what the great reading says and resort to your empty slogans of "unity" and nonsensical analogies.
I have seen many poeple who like you jumped on the Hadith rejection bandwagon as it gained popularity and when it became "cool" to reject nonsensical Hadiths. However, they forgot that the objective is not to reject Hadiths. The objective is to follow the TRUTH, even if that TRUTH is different than what the majority follows. If you truly want real unity, then hold on to the rope of The God, the Truth and not the rope of the majority that you call unity.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salam ayman,
well what can i say.. i am not surprised by your response. i must say that back when we had our discussion about the full moon and you spent a significant amount of time trying to convince everyone that you can tell perfect symmetry by eye, and then finally were confronted with scientific evidence that such a thing would be impossible because of only 1% difference in illumination... you just kind of let that point slide by, never bothered to mentioned heck, whaddya know i was wrong about that or could be wrong about that... no, you just kept right on plugging along.
and this time, you don't admit that hey, you gotta point, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater... yes, it is a fallacious argument to claim that since the clock isn't working each piece is garbage...
you dont do that... but what you DO do, is make labels and accusions "you're a hadith follower" blah blah blah.
Bro, get a grip. We are all adults and can make our own choices. 2 interpretations for ramadan have been put forward.
In your interpretation ramadan firstly occurs twice in a solar year, once for northern, once for southern hemisphere (already a big stretch since no one can claim that ramadan=summer solstice... as i've posted previously, the hottest days are NOT the longest days).
In mine, ramadan occurs once a year according to a calendrical month which the same lexicons you use are telling you that it was a calendrical month, renamed to ramadan because when these months were renamed in a hot month, just as rabee' was named during a spring month.
people can make their own decisions... you've made yours, that you won't admit even the smallest mistake. THAT my friend, is no better than a hadith-follower... and THAT is the essential problem with those who stick to hadith, the inability to admit a mistake.
wassalam
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Peace Shuaib,
well what can i say.. i am not surprised by your response. i must say that back when we had our discussion about the full moon and you spent a significant amount of time trying to convince everyone that you can tell perfect symmetry by eye, and then finally were confronted with scientific evidence that such a thing would be impossible because of only 1% difference in illumination... you just kind of let that point slide by, never bothered to mentioned heck, whaddya know i was wrong about that or could be wrong about that... no, you just kept right on plugging along.
What are yout talking about? Have you even read the threads. I PERSONALLY was able to discern that the moon was not symmetric on the 26th of October, just ONE night before the full moon!
On the other hand, we are still waiting on your empty promise to show us a picture that you PERSONALLY took of the new moon.
and this time, you don't admit that hey, you gotta point, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater... yes, it is a fallacious argument to claim that since the clock isn't working each piece is garbage...
It is also a fallacious argument to say that each piece is working and yet the clock is garbage. Most likely, the clock is grabage because the pieces are garbage. ANY system is only as good as its compenents and that is a fact. It is not my problem that you are ignorant of the discipline of system analysis.
Bro, get a grip. We are all adults and can make our own choices. 2 interpretations for ramadan have been put forward.
One is based on logical interpretation of the great reading and the other is based on "unity" with the hypocrites and idolaters.
In your interpretation ramadan firstly occurs twice in a solar year, once for northern, once for southern hemisphere (already a big stretch since no one can claim that ramadan=summer solstice... as i've posted previously, the hottest days are NOT the longest days).
In mine, ramadan occurs once a year according to a calendrical month which the same lexicons you use are telling you that it was a calendrical month, renamed to ramadan because when these months were renamed in a hot month, just as rabee' was named during a spring month.
When was it renamed to Ramadan?
What was the original name?
Unless you answer those questions, then you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
people can make their own decisions... you've made yours, that you won't admit even the smallest mistake. THAT my friend, is no better than a hadith-follower... and THAT is the essential problem with those who stick to hadith, the inability to admit a mistake.
You are free to make your own decision but don't falsely claim that it is based on the great reading when it is in fact based on blindly following the majority.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salams ayman,
What are yout talking about? Have you even read the threads. I PERSONALLY was able to discern that the moon was not symmetric on the 26th of October, just ONE night before the full moon!
On the other hand, we are still waiting on your empty promise to show us a picture that you PERSONALLY took of the new moon.
Yes I read the thread, and you did not respond to the fact that often the day before and after full moon is 99% illumination. Your own words that you personally could tell the difference mean little in the face of this scientific data showing how impossible it would be to tell if something is 99% or 100% symmetric! There's no point in acting surprised now when back then you did not respond.
Bro, a kind brother posted the entire moon sequence, you dont need anything from me. Not only the moon sequence but the pertentage illumination which was more important.
It is also a fallacious argument to say...
So is this FINALLY an admission of a mistake? (in the most roundabout way possible) So that's the whole point bro, DONT make fallacious arguments. You may honestly think the current system is wrong, but you have to disprove it using LOGICAL, not ILLOGICAL arguments.
As far as what MY argument is for ramadan, I did not say that the primary goal of ramadan is to unite. BUT, I did say that fasting in 2 groups damages unity.
As far as your interpretation of wa'tasimu bi hablillahi wa la tafarraqu, I think it totally overlooks HOW differences start in the first place. Note that the statement is in 2 parts, hold fast to the rope, AND i.e. ALSO do not break yourselves into groups. Differences can start even when everyone is on the same plan/program... it is a separate conscious effort to avoid breaking yourselves into groups.
Each of the commandments of the Quran fosters unity, this is a common sense conclusion because unity is so highly prized in the Quran. Salat, hajj, and yes ramadan too should naturally AID unity as unity is a dynamic concept... they should not DETRACT from unity.
One is based on logical interpretation of the great reading and the other is based on "unity" with the hypocrites and idolaters.
No but I won't forsake other MUSLIMS (whom you declare hypocrates and idolators though you do not have this right), JUST for the sake of forsaking them.
As far as your LOGICAL interpretation, as I have explained it does not follow LOGICALLY at all... you are GUESSING that ramadan has something to do with the summer solstice, even though the hottest days ARE NOT the longest days. You are ALSO going AGAINST a direct order of the Quran WA LA TAFARRAQU, do not break into groups.
When was it renamed to Ramadan?
What was the original name?
Unless you answer those questions, then you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
There's no point in crying about it now, when you didn't respond when I had given a full post on the issue. The original name was natiq and it was changed in the pre-islamic era during a time of intense heat, and rabee' 1 and 2 were named in spring time!
The very lexicons you are using to tell you the meaning of ramadha, are telling you this.
You are free to make your own decision but don't falsely claim that it is based on the great reading when it is in fact based on blindly following the majority.
First of all, it's Quran. We all know what Quran is even most non-Muslims know what the Quran is.
Secondly, WA LA FARRAQU
wassalam
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Peace Shuaib,
Yes I read the thread, and you did not respond to the fact that often the day before and after full moon is 99% illumination. Your own words that you personally could tell the difference mean little in the face of this scientific data showing how impossible it would be to tell if something is 99% or 100% symmetric! There's no point in acting surprised now when back then you did not respond.
Bro, a kind brother posted the entire moon sequence, you dont need anything from me. Not only the moon sequence but the pertentage illumination which was more important.
From the moon sequence, one can with a little concentration make out the full-moon. As for scientific data, no scientist ever said that it is impossible to make out the full moon so you are now resorting to falsifying information. What the data indicates is that it takes effort to make out the difference because the difference is small but it is not impossible. What the data in fact suggests is that it is impossible for an average observer to make out the new moon. Even an EXPERIENCED observer wouldn't be able to see it until one day after the new moon. Here is a quote
"Generally, the lunar crescent will become visible to suitably-located, experienced observers with good sky conditions about one day after New Moon."
On the other hand, scientifically the full moon of scorching heat is the EASIEST full moon to make out because it is in the line of sight of the observer and appears much larger than a regular full-moon. I don't think that this is a coincidence.
As far as what MY argument is for ramadan, I did not say that the primary goal of ramadan is to unite. BUT, I did say that fasting in 2 groups damages unity.
Abstaining at two different times is irrelevant to unity. The ONLY thing that will help unity is holding on to the rope of The God, The Truth. If the TRUTH tells us that abstaining is in the time of scorching heat then be it. You prefer to forgo the Truth for the sake of some bogus unity.
As far as your interpretation of wa'tasimu bi hablillahi wa la tafarraqu, I think it totally overlooks HOW differences start in the first place. Note that the statement is in 2 parts, hold fast to the rope, AND i.e. ALSO do not break yourselves into groups. Differences can start even when everyone is on the same plan/program... it is a separate conscious effort to avoid breaking yourselves into groups.
Each of the commandments of the Quran fosters unity, this is a common sense conclusion because unity is so highly prized in the Quran. Salat, hajj, and yes ramadan too should naturally AID unity as unity is a dynamic concept... they should not DETRACT from unity.
The fact is that those who have faith are united regardless of when they are doing their "salat"/learning connection and "sawm"/abstinence. Doing them at different or same times is irrelevant to unity.
Those who have faith are naturally united by holding on to the rope of The God, The TRUTH. Those who have faith in the TRUTH follow it and NOT some bogus unity which is in fact nothing more than blindly following what the majority is doing.
No but I won't forsake other MUSLIMS (whom you declare hypocrates and idolators though you do not have this right), JUST for the sake of forsaking them.
What other "muslims"? Do you call "muslims" the pagans who spin seven times around a stone thinking that this takes away their sins?
Given your logic, you probably would spin with the pagans around their beloved stone for the sake of "unity".
The word "muslim" is not a meaningless label. It has a meaning and if you call such pagans "muslim" then you clearly don't know the meaning of the word "muslim".
As far as your LOGICAL interpretation, as I have explained it does not follow LOGICALLY at all... you are GUESSING that ramadan has something to do with the summer solstice, even though the hottest days ARE NOT the longest days. You are ALSO going AGAINST a direct order of the Quran WA LA TAFARRAQU, do not break into groups.
I am not guessing. The clear Arabic meaning of "ramadan" is "scorching heat". The sun is scorching when it is at its highest point and the shadow is smallest. Hence, the times of scorching heat happen after the summer solstice. The full-moon of scorching heat is the first full moon after the summer solstice.
You, on the other hand, choose to ignore the clear meaning of the ARABIC word "ramadan" and just take it as meaningless label. Why? Because you know that the meaning goes against your illogical blind following of the majority that you decorate and rename to "unity".
There's no point in crying about it now, when you didn't respond when I had given a full post on the issue. The original name was natiq and it was changed in the pre-islamic era during a time of intense heat, and rabee' 1 and 2 were named in spring time!
The very lexicons you are using to tell you the meaning of ramadha, are telling you this.
Firstly, in "pre-quranic" times Rabi3 Alawal was in the spring and Rabi3 Althani was in early fall and they didn't follow each other as they do now.
Secondly, the current so-called Islamic calendar was established during the time of Caliph Omar, long after the death of the prophet and the revelation of the great reading. This is confirmed by archeological evidence from coins and manuscripts of the era. Hence, all his life, the prophet would have abstained at the time of "scorching heat".
As for the Lexicons, they were written by linguists not historians or archeologists and hence are best used to figure out the etymology of words not the history of what really happened. This is elementary.
First of all, it's Quran. We all know what Quran is even most non-Muslims know what the Quran is.
Like you demonstrated above that you don't know what the word "muslim" means, you are also demonstrating clearly that you are ignorant of what "quran" means. If you know what it means, then prove it by translating it and telling us what it means.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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salams ayman,
Like you demonstrated above that you don't know what the word "muslim" means, you are also demonstrating clearly that you are ignorant of what "quran" means.
Bro if you think I am ignorant of what Quran means, then go and post on the topic that I started on "Quran - The reading?"
As far as this idea of being able to call Muslims pagans... bro get a grip. You have not been given the right to judge over people... everyone has their trials and tribulations. You can't even judge yourself, much less others... just look after yourself.
As far as khalifa Umar, I know very well that he established the calandar in terms of the YEAR to begin after hijra... where are you seeing that he has done more than this? I have never seen any record of him doing more than just establishing the year after hijra. I welcome any additional information on this.
As far as the full moon goes, I dont know why you quote one part and ignore the other part. I can only assume that you are intelligent enough to have read it... but then that leads me to believe you purposefully are being misleading. From the same web site
Although Full Moon occurs each month at a specific date and time, the Moon's disk may appear to be full for several nights in a row if it is clear.
The difficulty of detecting the hilaal is primarily a discussion of how EARLY one can see it. But just as we discussed way in the past, seeing a 1-3% sliver of light against a black sky is much easier than telling if something is 99% or 100% illuminated.
As far as ramadan goes and fasting in 1 group goes, at this point i've said pretty much all that i feel needs to be said. my goal is not to convince you, but rather to present the alternative. if you think i did a crappy job well heck then that just makes your job that much easier. You've presented your ideas about the solstice, and I've presented my ideas about the calendar.
wassalam
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Peace Shuaib,
Bro if you think I am ignorant of what Quran means, then go and post on the topic that I started on "Quran - The reading?"
I will look there. You are also dodging here to explain what "muslim" means.
As far as this idea of being able to call Muslims pagans... bro get a grip. You have not been given the right to judge over people... everyone has their trials and tribulations. You can't even judge yourself, much less others... just look after yourself.
If you spin seven times around a stone thinking that this act takes away your sins then you are a pagan and that is a fact.
Clearly you don't take Ibrahim as an example. I doubt that he would have said "I will just look after myself and I will not say anything to my people who idolize stones". I guess saying the truth and exposing falsehood requires a certain amount of courage, which you clearly don't have.
As far as khalifa Umar, I know very well that he established the calandar in terms of the YEAR to begin after hijra... where are you seeing that he has done more than this? I have never seen any record of him doing more than just establishing the year after hijra. I welcome any additional information on this.
No he didn't establish the year after "hijra". He established the new calendar era. The "after hijra" was added much later.
As I pointed out, before the new Umar calendar, the order of the months was different so he also rearanged the months and disconnected them from the seasons that they occured in (as evident by what they are called). Hence, even the staunchest traditionalist is forced to admit that ALL HIS LIFE, the prophet abstained in the time of "ramadan"/scorching heat.
The difficulty of detecting the hilaal is primarily a discussion of how EARLY one can see it. But just as we discussed way in the past, seeing a 1-3% sliver of light against a black sky is much easier than telling if something is 99% or 100% illuminated.
Again, actions speak louder than words. Everybody is still waiting for you to show us the picture that you said you would PERSONALLY take of the new moon (which you claim to have seen many times). Don't try to wiggle out of it, otherwise people can only conclude that you were lying.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman