Laleh Bakhtiar on the Misinterpretation of 4:34 in the Quran
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Laleh Bakhtiar on the Misinterpretation of 434 in the Quran
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=833pm2pOhgwI actually like what she had to say. bravo
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I have spoken with her personally about her take on 434 and whilst it is better than the traditional/common understanding, it does not address various issues, as discussed in www.Quran434.com. Mainly to do with DRB usage and consistency, and internal example consistency.
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I have spoken with her personally about her take on 434 and whilst it is better than the traditional/common understanding, it does not address various issues, as discussed in www.Quran434.com. Mainly to do with DRB usage and consistency, and internal example consistency.
Peace Wakas, curious which part you disagree with her?
I have it as "show them" referring back to admonish them and abandoning in the beds; not 1,2,3 rather concurrently...
434 ... and the ones whom you fear their ill-conduct so admonish them and leave them in the beds and strike/show them
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I think this means "do so that they get what your complain is and the gravity of it". make home to them. And the three measures in a row are either of them or all of them, because the two first may be the means to make then aware. They reinforce the whole expression of making the other conscious of the motives and/or seriousness of one's discontent.
I must say that the thoroughness of the study of the usage of D-r-b in the Qur'an made by Wakas deserves praise but, more than praise, to read it and see for ourselves how we have been being led by the nose in a thing that in itself, when you read the aya and continue with the follwoing is quite straightforward, sensible and conmensurate.
My take is that it was the one aya chosen in the whole of Qur'an to be the vehicle of marital authority, because nowhere in the whole of Qur'an is marital authorite alluded to or stated. However, for ages and everywhere or almost everywhere, marital authority has been a tenet of societies, those who adopted islam as preached by the rophet with the Qur'an, were unable to do away with marital authority, therefore they looked through the book see which of its many words could be exploited to extract that product, and they found 3.34 as the most usable. The whole of the aya has been made a complete mess. If we read the translations, where qanitaat, is translated as obedient, and then again talks about obedience, it is absolutely disgusting and very precisely aimed.
in the site Wakas cites there is the D-r-b exhaustively examined. I think that after that nobody honestly can say that D-r-b means beat or strike in the sense of hitting physically. It would be preoposterous.
But, I must acknowledge, the work of hypnotizing very efficiently generation after generation, with the D-r-b things has been very effective and it is hard to get rid of it, specially since it goes hand in hand with the other cummulus of perversions piled on top of that aya.
?Poor 3.34! ?What may it have done to attract such beating? (Pun not intended, but glad that it popped up)
Salaam
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peace Noon,
As I said "Mainly to do with DRB usage and consistency, and internal example consistency."
Her DRB usage is not consistent, whilst the view in Quran434.com is. Her translation does not seem to fit any internal example within Quran. Or at least, certainly not as coherently as the view in Quran434.com
In terms of your view, you do not address how the authority was notified. On this point, the Traditionals do the same thing. Although I did find in their own sources they do say the authority is notified by a spouse or spouses both. As discussed on Quran434.com
Secondly, it is not concurrently, as this implies a husband abandons them in bed immediately when one might not even be in bed. This is explained further in Quran434.com
And lastly, it does not seem to fit the internal examples in Quran, whilst Quran434.com does.If you have read Quran434.com and still disagree, please explain why.
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Salam Wakas and all
she reads the Quran by her heart and see that something was wrong and tried to give the people a better understanding.
The page, which you indicated, offers a complete study and I find it fantastic.
I would like to join huruf when he says, no one can say after reading this article, thant d-r-b means beat.
Thanks for the links. Salam -
Peace )
I always knew that there was something very wrong in the way that verse was understood by the sectarians. Why would God prescribe "beating" even as a last resort? When has abuse every solved anything? If anything, I think it would create more tension in the marriage. I have read both perspectives (Bakhtiar and Wakas), and may God reward both of them for their efforts.
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Peace
I always knew that there was something very wrong in the way that verse was understood by the sectarians. Why would God prescribe "beating" even as a last resort? When has abuse every solved anything? If anything, I think it would create more tension in the marriage. I have read both perspectives (Bakhtiar and Wakas), and may God reward both of them for their efforts.
Salam Released & All
I read Edip Yuksel article on this subject in the Quran Islam website, there are 10 different meanings to "Idribuhunne".
It dose not make sense and it would definitely not solve anything by beating your love ones.
peace
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For a long time, analysing the situation described at the end of the aya and not having questionned yet the d-r-b meaning I understood it as a reduction to absurdum, because it is something unreal in terms of actual execution. That is, we were shown that it was something non logical no in the human behaviour to cool keeping away from the consort for a while, and then, out of the blue, you go, and say take that! And lo! everything got solved.
However the context and the tone of the aya do not warrant such a laughable situation. So good riddance of D-r-b as physical hits in the truthful Qur'an.
Thank God one more overdue housecleaning job done in the Qur'an.
Salaam
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Salaam All,
I tend to read the "Al- Quran A contemporary translation" by Ahmed Ali (published 198 as its only a translation with no tafseer. Something that I personally prefer as it allows you to focus on the text of the verses.
As a result there are no distracting side stories and explanations and tafseers like Yusuf Ali or arcane language like Pickthall, and also the language used by Ahmed Ali is quite lyrical and beautiful with a cadence and rhythm.
Ahmed Ali also refused to translate the verse 434 as beats and has given a brief explanation for doing so. I believe at the time he got a lot of flack from uber traditionalist types, who were outraged by his temerity on this issue and also polygamy, but academics and more sensible muslims backed him.
Since most of this happened pre-internet, not many people are aware of the background to this particular translation and it was not promoted heavily ---a pity as I feel its one of the better translations out there.
Not perfect--but very good nonetheless and deserving of a wider audience.
Its the one I give to people when they are curious about Islam and it always disarms people as opposed to the dreadful and insensitive translation by Muhsin and Hillali that seems to be everywhere!
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Peace
I always knew that there was something very wrong in the way that verse was understood by the sectarians. Why would God prescribe "beating" even as a last resort? When has abuse every solved anything? If anything, I think it would create more tension in the marriage. I have read both perspectives (Bakhtiar and Wakas), and may God reward both of them for their efforts.
Exactly...as if beating your wife is going to somehow make her love you more and make her want to stay.
