Archaeological/Historical Evidence For Quran

Ayisha

I do not know why people who are keen on imposing the bible as being as good as the Qur'an, and I do not mean you Youssef, keep insisting on that the Bible contains truth. Nobody has denied that, the same as it is not a question of all hadith being absolutely wrong. There are hadiths that may be true or even which are true, because no matter who said it, the saying is good and truthful. The fact that there ar good things in the bible, the same that there are good things aamongst all the hadith does not prove that the whole of the bible or that all hadith are true, all the truth and nothing but the truth.

We claim that nonetheless of the Qur'an. There are traditions and scriptures of spiritual and religious nature in the whole world which contain marvels and which are moving. That cannot be denied, but the point is to what extent can we be sure of their authenticity, aboslute and complete truthfulness and so on. The bible is not the reference for that. It cannot be. It is, amongst other things, partisan. In places, very, abhorrently partisan. Upholding the bible as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps, just as the hadith colletions have. Oh yes there are good things in them, but you cannot take the lot without suspicion and caution, because it does not come stright from God. As simple as that.

We may read the Bible, the hadith, study them, why not, we may read and study anything, why not those, but we know their limits.

Salaam

Why do you compare the Bible (God confirmed in Quran was from Him) to hadith (God confirmed in Quran are not from Him)?? ???

It's a bit like comparing all the good foods Allah said we can eat, to pigs.

noble

Why do you compare the Bible (God confirmed in Quran was from Him) to hadith (God confirmed in Quran are not from Him)?? ???

It's a bit like comparing all the good foods Allah said we can eat, to pigs.

Peace
not once is there mention of the Bible in the Quran...
what are mentioned are the Torah, Injeel, AlZaboor, the First Leaves of Abraham and Moussa...

Jafar

The fact that there ar good things in the bible, the same that there are good things aamongst all the hadith does not prove that the whole of the bible or that all hadith are true, all the truth and nothing but the truth.

Good thought
but..
Don't you think the same paradigm is also applicable to anything? including the Quran?

That cannot be denied, but the point is to what extent can we be sure of their authenticity, aboslute and complete truthfulness and so on.

Again the same goes with Quran don't you think?
Otherwise you'll be applying a 'double standard'..

The bible is not the reference for that. It cannot be. It is, amongst other things, partisan. In places, very, abhorrently partisan.

And in other places/books within the bundle called "Bible".. it's not partisan at all...

Upholding the bible as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps, just as the hadith colletions have. Oh yes there are good things in them, but you cannot take the lot without suspicion and caution, because it does not come stright from God. As simple as that.

Again this goes with anything.. including the Quran..

Salam / Peace

Jafar

We are so quick to point out the history of the Bible and the history or hadith, yet we can't even explain the history of our own book?

So it's "Our own book" now?
Did any of us here wrote and authored the Quran or own it's copyright?

And history are written by the winners..
History by itself is not 100% fact..

Salam / Peace

huruf

Good thought
but..
Don't you think the same paradigm is also applicable to anything? including the Quran?

Again the same goes with Quran don't you think?
Otherwise you'll be applying a 'double standard'..

And in other places/books within the bundle called "Bible".. it's not partisan at all...
Again this goes with anything.. including the Quran..

Salam / Peace

I, as yet, have not caught the Qur'an in any of the things I say about hadith or the bible. Whenever I have gone through the intepretation of the interpreters and got direct understanding without those trappings, I have never found failures or shortcomings or confusion in the Qur'an. The Qur'an, when you get rid of prejudice, of the prejudices accumulated arount it, is never partial, is straightforward and fearless.

No not applicable to the Qur'an at all. Hadith, bad hadith and the bible are corrupted in their body, the Qur'an has been perverted outside it, its sorroundings. You have to get rid of its sorroundings. What we could call "the veils".

Salaam

Jafar

I, as yet, have not caught the Qur'an in any of the things I say about hadith or the bible. Whenever I have gone through the intepretation of the interpreters and got direct understanding without those trappings, I have never found failures or shortcomings or confusion in the Qur'an. The Qur'an, when you get rid of prejudice, of the prejudices accumulated arount it, is never partial, is straightforward and fearless.

I think you missed the main point..
The main point was

"If there are good things amongst X does not prove that the whole of X is true, all the truth and nothing but the truth. "
Thus
"Upholding X as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps"

Which I believe is applicable to all materials.. including Quran..

And Bible is a collection of multiple books.. where each book is a collection of multiple statement..
Just like Quran is a collection of multiple chapters and a chapter is a collection of multiple statement..

"For in the same way you judge others, you will also be judged, and with the measure you use, it shall also be measured to you."
Matt 72

Salam / Peace

ammi

Peace everyone

I think the fact that we cannot prove historically or archaeologically the origin of quran is a proof in itself that it is from GOD

I mean if something is created by human we can trace back its history and its origin....likewise we can't do that for everything created by God...

We cannot trace back origin of human beings, can we?....where n when we were created....how we came about being what we are....what is the history of origin of animals....we cannot....n so that in itself is a proof that we are created by God n so are animals...

We tend to prove quran or any other scripture with limited knowledge in science, history, archaeology etc rather approach should be different. Instead of proving it word of god...we should ask y it cant be word of god....

I find Quran to be word of God because
1, No one can claim that it was written by me. In other word it has got no author.
2, No one have understood it completely.
3, No one was able to find inconsistency in its verses. By that i mean is if some thing is mentioned at one place, it is mentioned the same way at other places.
4, I don't think there is any book including Bible in its present form which has got so many layers of understanding. I find it like a puzzle which has never been solved.
5, How can any person change it when to understand it is difficult.

As far as other scriptures are present there is lot of information present but there is lot of misinformation present alongside it....when Allah said that quran has come as a criterion (furqaan) and it confirms what was revealed before (which got corrupted) i believe we can find a great deal of good information in all the scriptures by keeping it a criteria to decide what can be correct and what can be corruption.

Thanks

huruf

I think you missed the main point..
The main point was

"If there are good things amongst X does not prove that the whole of X is true, all the truth and nothing but the truth. "
Thus
"Upholding X as paramount of wisdom and spirituality has its traps"

Which I believe is applicable to all materials.. including Quran..

And Bible is a collection of multiple books.. where each book is a collection of multiple statement..
Just like Quran is a collection of multiple chapters and a chapter is a collection of multiple statement..

"For in the same way you judge others, you will also be judged, and with the measure you use, it shall also be measured to you."
Matt 72

Salam / Peace

Do not strain yourself. I got it the first time. You want me to make a statement saying that I don't know what I know or saying that since I cannot vouch for absolutely everything, I cannot vouch for anything.

No, I vouch for what I can vouch because I have tried it. What I vouch for the truthful Qur'an I vouch, yes. I know the Qur'an as if I was God? No, I don't. But what I do know as I if was who I am satisfies me. What I do know about Hadith satisfies me partially, and some of those not only do not satisfy me but plain disgust me. What I do know about the Bible satisfies me partially, and some of it not only does not satisfy me, but plain disgusts me. And concerning the latter, I know what the make of the Bible is. I read it since childhood and then It did disgust me alright. ?What a disagreeable reading in some parts! ?What a genealogical obssession! No wonder Freud had a field day with it. For me, the best of it are the parables of Jesus without doubt, which probably were around anyway, and were collected under his gospels. They are that kind of literature. Not to say with that that because they have been around not should be preached or that they have lost any of its value. They have not. They are still efficient to convey what they convey. That is my perception. But no, although there are nice parts in the old testament, Got sei Dank, I am no fan of it. I find many spiritual books far more rewarding. And there are things in it that I find outright inmoral, wicked, twisted and obssessive to a very painful degree. As I say, they are hadith.

So I speak about what I know. You, on the other hand, take the intonation of somebody who would be an impartial observer. There is no such thing. I think you just have that personal opinion about what you think you know, exactly like me and exactly like everybody else.

And what I stated about the Qur'an, I maintain.

Salaam

mirjamnur

Salam
interesting discussion
What we know from Pazuzus research that probably (or sure) the hole history is a fake and it seems that the origin from the Quran is in Saudi Arabien or Yemen. But, i think i must ask myself is this fact really important? yes maybe to know or to understand why we see this big problems in the world today.. Yes. But for our relationship with Allah?
The Quran states that he is a book for people who think. So when we read the Quran and study it, try to understand it's message, what is the most important?
that we understand there is a God and there is a hereafter, there is a life after the death.
We can discuss hundred years about the question if the Quran is true or not. Many will say yes and many no-so this is in fact our test..
we read the Quran and see no unlogic, no violence, no oppression, no needless stories, why we should not believe?
The Quran tells us that the Torah and the Psalms and the Injeel were writing from God. He tells us, however, that they have been altered by rabbis and violent people.
This is a fact no one can deny. Why should I reject this book when my brain is my logic and my feeling see nothing wrong in it?
There are also many indications or signs in the Qur'an, which points out that the book is not of human origin. One sign of this is his linguistics and his choice of words, and to his composition (word pairs, etc., 19 also)
But the question is really
It is important to prove that the Quran is from God? It is important to know for my rescue, where the Prophet lived?
What is the message that comes to us through all the books?

huruf

But no, although there are nice parts in the old testament, Got sei Dank, I am no fan of it. I find many spiritual books far more rewarding. And there are things in it that I find outright inmoral, wicked, twisted and obssessive to a very painful degree. As I say, they are hadith.

I see this, Gott sei Dank--can you speak German ? would be great, because sometimes I lack the words to express myself precise in English ...
Salams

Jafar

Do not strain yourself. I got it the first time. You want me to make a statement saying that I don't know what I know or saying that since I cannot vouch for absolutely everything, I cannot vouch for anything.

I was saying that

you should be careful of "Subjective opinion" as it will cloud your judgement.
You should start applying the same criterias of judgement to all things, including yourselves or thing which you consider/identified as 'yours' (your holy book, your opinion, your religion, your sect, your nationality, your ethnicity, your family, your children etc..)

And what I stated about the Qur'an, I maintain.

It's fine as long as you don't put the "X is True because Quran (or other books you considered holy) said it's true".
Which is kind of ridiculous..

Salam / Peace

Jafar

What we know from Pazuzus research that probably (or sure) the hole history is a fake and it seems that the origin from the Quran is in Saudi Arabien or Yemen. But, i think i must ask myself is this fact really important?

It's not a 'fact' it's merely his hypothesis.. a weak one according to my opinion..
And NO it's NOT IMPORTANT at all... and will not change anything..

It is important to prove that the Quran is from God? It is important to know for my rescue, where the Prophet lived?

Again not important...

What is the message that comes to us through all the books?

That everything that happened to you or others are meant to be happening. and you should accept it..
Only then you shall find your own peace..

The same above principle is also laid out in other materials (Torah, Bible, Ghita, Tao Te Ching etc..)

Salam / Peace

huruf

I was saying that

you should be careful of "Subjective opinion" as it will cloud your judgement.
You should start applying the same criterias of judgement to all things, including yourselves or thing which you consider/identified as 'yours' (your holy book, your opinion, your religion, your sect, your nationality, your ethnicity, your family, your children etc..)

It's fine as long as you don't put the "X is True because Quran (or other books you considered holy) said it's true".
Which is kind of ridiculous..

Salam / Peace

Well what I have said is that what I have experienced and verified for myself from the Qur'an I have found truthful, therefore I have no reason to say that anything in the Qur'an is not truthful. Ik I ever find something that to my best understanding it is not, then I will acknowledge to myself that it is not. But that has not happened. Quite the opposite I have found in the Qur'an a level and a quality of truth and independence and unsubservience that have strengthened my trust in it. That I cannot say of the Bible, where things that seem as far as I can judge, good, are good, but on which I would never put my hand in the fire on trust, because there are things, verifiably to my understanding that cannot be from God not even holy or truthful or even moral. Same with number of hadiths.

That is what I said, that is what I maintain, and therefore, no, no way that the Bible, hadith and Qur'an are on a level. The one I trust because I have found all the reasons that humans rely on to trust anything or anybody, but I cannot say as much about the bible or the hadith. They are the product of humans with self interests sometimes noble, sometimes not at all noble, sometimes outright disgusting as I said.

Salaam

inquisitivetrini

Peace everyone

I think the fact that we cannot prove historically or archaeologically the origin of quran is a proof in itself that it is from GOD

I mean if something is created by human we can trace back its history and its origin....likewise we can't do that for everything created by God...

We cannot trace back origin of human beings, can we?....where n when we were created....how we came about being what we are....what is the history of origin of animals....we cannot....n so that in itself is a proof that we are created by God n so are animals...

We tend to prove quran or any other scripture with limited knowledge in science, history, archaeology etc rather approach should be different. Instead of proving it word of god...we should ask y it cant be word of god....

I find Quran to be word of God because
1, No one can claim that it was written by me. In other word it has got no author.
2, No one have understood it completely.
3, No one was able to find inconsistency in its verses. By that i mean is if some thing is mentioned at one place, it is mentioned the same way at other places.
4, I don't think there is any book including Bible in its present form which has got so many layers of understanding. I find it like a puzzle which has never been solved.
5, How can any person change it when to understand it is difficult.

As far as other scriptures are present there is lot of information present but there is lot of misinformation present alongside it....when Allah said that quran has come as a criterion (furqaan) and it confirms what was revealed before (which got corrupted) i believe we can find a great deal of good information in all the scriptures by keeping it a criteria to decide what can be correct and what can be corruption.

Thanks

Salam Ammi,

Thank you so much for that post. It's an incredibly interesting perspective that I could easily agree with! It made a lot of sense.

Thanks again,

Peace and blessings!

inquisitivetrini

Salam
interesting discussion
What we know from Pazuzus research that probably (or sure) the hole history is a fake and it seems that the origin from the Quran is in Saudi Arabien or Yemen. But, i think i must ask myself is this fact really important? yes maybe to know or to understand why we see this big problems in the world today.. Yes. But for our relationship with Allah?
The Quran states that he is a book for people who think. So when we read the Quran and study it, try to understand it's message, what is the most important?
that we understand there is a God and there is a hereafter, there is a life after the death.
We can discuss hundred years about the question if the Quran is true or not. Many will say yes and many no-so this is in fact our test..
we read the Quran and see no unlogic, no violence, no oppression, no needless stories, why we should not believe?
The Quran tells us that the Torah and the Psalms and the Injeel were writing from God. He tells us, however, that they have been altered by rabbis and violent people.
This is a fact no one can deny. Why should I reject this book when my brain is my logic and my feeling see nothing wrong in it?
There are also many indications or signs in the Qur'an, which points out that the book is not of human origin. One sign of this is his linguistics and his choice of words, and to his composition (word pairs, etc., 19 also)
But the question is really
It is important to prove that the Quran is from God? It is important to know for my rescue, where the Prophet lived?
What is the message that comes to us through all the books?

hurufI see this, Gott sei Dank--can you speak German ? would be great, because sometimes I lack the words to express myself precise in English ...
Salams

A very good pint mirjamnur. Thank you so much!

Peace and blessings. yay

inquisitivetrini

@mirjamnur that was supposed to be "point" not "pint". Haha. Sorry!!

I think I've found my answer thanks to everyone's replies. Thanks guys! But feel free to keep chatting about things.

Much love, peace and blessings to all! group

huruf

Salam
interesting discussion
What we know from Pazuzus research that probably (or sure) the hole history is a fake and it seems that the origin from the Quran is in Saudi Arabien or Yemen. But, i think i must ask myself is this fact really important? yes maybe to know or to understand why we see this big problems in the world today.. Yes. But for our relationship with Allah?
The Quran states that he is a book for people who think. So when we read the Quran and study it, try to understand it's message, what is the most important?
that we understand there is a God and there is a hereafter, there is a life after the death.
We can discuss hundred years about the question if the Quran is true or not. Many will say yes and many no-so this is in fact our test..
we read the Quran and see no unlogic, no violence, no oppression, no needless stories, why we should not believe?
The Quran tells us that the Torah and the Psalms and the Injeel were writing from God. He tells us, however, that they have been altered by rabbis and violent people.
This is a fact no one can deny. Why should I reject this book when my brain is my logic and my feeling see nothing wrong in it?
There are also many indications or signs in the Qur'an, which points out that the book is not of human origin. One sign of this is his linguistics and his choice of words, and to his composition (word pairs, etc., 19 also)
But the question is really
It is important to prove that the Quran is from God? It is important to know for my rescue, where the Prophet lived?
What is the message that comes to us through all the books?

hurufI see this, Gott sei Dank--can you speak German ? would be great, because sometimes I lack the words to express myself precise in English ...
Salams

Salaam Mirjamnur,

We do not need to have the history and all the material details of the stories narrated in the Qur'an right. That is the advantage of the Qur'n that even though the stories are specific, they are not tied to a particular indentity or place to be meaningful.

The problem is not in the Qur'an, the problem is in the habit of converting the Qur'an in a receptacle of stories ruminated inthe Bible and adscribing them such as they are to the Qur'an. And when we do that many times we emasculate and falsify the Qur'an. Take Hawa just to start with. If the Qur'an was not subjected to that kind of colonization we wouldn't need to worry about history or archeology, but the question is that the Qur'an is colonized all right. So we have better clean its sorroundings so that it continues making unnecessary locations and specific persons and we keep to the lessons and teachings. As it is, may be some or many of us can make abstraction of locations and so on, but many, many people, as we well know, are attached to those, and they are pushing down our throats, or up some other place genealogical obsessions, chosen peoples, a real estate belief, historicl falsehoods.

No, I rather think that cleaning house on that count is not out of place, if not for us, for people we know. Apart of course that it is good to get knowledge of any kind and particularly that kind of knwoledge is very rewarding in itself.

Sure, Mirjamnur, I used to speak German fluently and I can read it with no problem, write I do not do it since a long time ago, but any thing I can help you with feel free, you are too sweet to refuse you anything.

Salaam

mirjamnur

Salaam Mirjamnur,

We do not need to have the history and all the material details of the stories narrated in the Qur'an right. That is the advantage of the Qur'n that even though the stories are specific, they are not tied to a particular indentity or place to be meaningful.

The problem is not in the Qur'an, the problem is in the habit of converting the Qur'an in a receptacle of stories ruminated inthe Bible and adscribing them such as they are to the Qur'an. And when we do that many times we emasculate and falsify the Qur'an. Take Hawa just to start with. If the Qur'an was not subjected to that kind of colonization we wouldn't need to worry about history or archeology, but the question is that the Qur'an is colonized all right. So we have better clean its sorroundings so that it continues making unnecessary locations and specific persons and we keep to the lessons and teachings. As it is, may be some or many of us can make abstraction of locations and so on, but many, many people, as we well know, are attached to those, and they are pushing down our throats, or up some other place genealogical obsessions, chosen peoples, a real estate belief, historicl falsehoods.

i think really i need Hawa. ... it's quite amazing how i came from Christianity and reject all and i was proud tempt to found the truth... and in fact i trumped in the same hole then before.

No, I rather think that cleaning house on that count is not out of place, if not for us, for people we know. Apart of course that it is good to get knowledge of any kind and particularly that kind of knwoledge is very rewarding in itself.
i don't know if we must search to get reward?? i don't like to trade with Allah. it seems so flat, doing good or researches for reward.. hasana.

Sure, Mirjamnur, I used to speak German fluently and I can read it with no problem, write I do not do it since a long time ago, but any thing I can help you with feel free, you are too sweet to refuse you anything.
that is because i eat to much chocolate thank you very much. i'm sure i will come back to your offer

Salaam

Salams
Salam huruf

huruf

No, I rather think that cleaning house on that count is not out of place, if not for us, for people we know. Apart of course that it is good to get knowledge of any kind and particularly that kind of knwoledge is very rewarding in itself.
i don't know if we must search to get reward?? i don't like to trade with Allah. it seems so flat, doing good or researches for reward.. hasana.

No, no. I do not mean it that way. I mean it like for you chocolate. You do not need to get any reward for eating chocolate, eating chocolate is a reward in itself. That is what I meant.

Notwithstanding that, every knwoledge is God mandated. We are told many times to observe, reflect, learn, What for? Anything we learn is God's creation. In history we see God's sunna and many other things. Seeking knowledge is legitimate and an act of piety. It is not idle, except that we choose idle knowledge, like gossip or things that pertain to other people's intimacy, or their sins and all that.

And learning difinitely is a reard in itself and in accordance with God's law and human fitra.
Salaam

mirjamnur

Salam huruf

No, no. I do not mean it that way. I mean it like for you chocolate. You do not need to get any reward for eating chocolate, eating chocolate is a reward in itself.( yay) That is what I meant.

Notwithstanding that, every knwoledge is God mandated. We are told many times to observe, reflect, learn, What for? Anything we learn is God's creation. In history we see God's sunna and many other things. Seeking knowledge is legitimate and an act of piety. It is not idle, except that we choose idle knowledge, like gossip or things that pertain to other people's intimacy, or their sins and all that.

And learning difinitely is a reard in itself and in accordance with God's law and human fitra.
Salaam

handshake and salams

IMHO

World Bulletin / News Desk

A Yemeni young man claimed to have found the oldest remaining copy of the Holy Quran but has refused to give up the manuscript, a report from the Yemeni Arabic news site Aden Gulf News said on Wednesday.

http//www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=96999