24:31 head covering?

[Wakas]

StopS

Telling a woman, who is biologically programmed to flirt and ensure the best possible genes for her offspring to hide away is a bit of a conflict and a contradiction.

Also, civilisation has moved on and I can calmly sit next to a woman on a nudist beach and chat with her without immediately raping her )

Are you implying on the one hand it is a conflict/contradiction for a command to go against biological programming, and on the other, "civilisation has moved on" when a man goes against his biological programming to pass on his seed?

There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof.

Really? Please list some of those theories.

[Shirin]

Salaam.

Thank you all for your replies. )

@Huruf, I understand what you are saying, basically it's about modesty and simplicity and I totally agree.

@Wakas, I understood the concepts of hidden and apparent, but what bugs me is that, according to this interpretation, we are allowed to show our hidden beauty to our family, excluding private parts of course. Maybe I'm having troubles with understanding English, forgive me if that is a case and I'm being annoying.

[unknownuser]

Salaam all,

Wakas has pretty much summed things up perfectly in his article. Read it thoroughly. Huruf opened my eyes to a very sensible understanding of this verse, re-read what she has written. Especially what she said in this thread, in fact, just go through the whole thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604269.0

And this link for reading a booklet I wrote regarding the whole dress code issue

removed

And don't forget to pay attention to Mazhar's epic translations. Just mix it all up with logic/reason and common sense and Classical Arabic dictionaries' knowledge and you should be able understand it.

[youssef4342]

Peace peace
here's a hint ONLY women are spoken of to have this ornaments.
if men grew out their hair, does it become an ornament?

and to the beginning posters, God cites to us of wearing jewelry 1614... and also describes clothes which are ornamental 726.
Traditionalists want to go as far as the one-eyed "Cyclops hijab". but that is highly impractical and inconceivable, to say the least. I don't really believe in Hijab as a religious obligation. God commanded to cover the chest/bosom area, lengthen garnments (wear long cloths), and don't walk in such a revealing way...

for short; Dress modest. Not extremist

[hawk99]

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.
That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.
Salaam

Excellent!

Posted by youssef4342
here's a hint ONLY women are spoken of to have this ornaments.
if men grew out their hair, does it become an ornament?
I agree

Ornaments could mean what makes a woman different from men.

Peace O0

[Karimah]

I was just curious if anyone else has read this article and if they have any thoughts on this particular argument for covering

http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/dress%20code%20of%20Muslim%20women.htm

[mirjamnur]

Salam
in this matter you can discuss without end, because the definition of Zina is from human to human from Society to Society different. An arabic man will say to you that hair is sure adornement, an Europaeen may say not at all....
So Allah leave it open for everyone to decide... and that is great
Salam

[dawngorgeous]

Peace All,

Just to clarify lengthen your skirt does not mean to wear a long skirt bit means to wear a longer skirt than you may have been used to. It's just telling us to be modest.

On the matter of the breasts, I have often wondered whether adornments/jewels could be nipples? Controversial, I know.

[StopS]

Are you implying on the one hand it is a conflict/contradiction for a command to go against biological programming, and on the other, "civilisation has moved on" when a man goes against his biological programming to pass on his seed?

No, I am stating that the command of covering up for a woman is a contradiction to nature.
Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated. Hence my example of the nudist beach. On the other hand, a cleric in KSA reasoned that women should not drive because if the car were to fail she could be molested by men and raped while waiting for a tow-truck. Muslims who attempted to rape 2 of our female employees were taken to the cops by our security guards. They were released because the ladies were not wearing abayas and thus were taunting the men and then the women were kicked out of UAE. Tough laws for 2012.

Really? Please list some of those theories.

Have you never heard any? I am surprised.

The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable.
Then we have the leaning towards the Jewish heritage and the inherent polygyny for example.
Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
I've collected more, but I would need to look for them. I reckon it's sufficient to answer your question for now.

[Wakas]

StopS,

It is interesting how you can confidently state what is and what is not part of nature. Humans have to cover up to some degree, otherwise they will either die of cold or receive far too much sun exposure.

And just in case you are unfamiliar with the views of forum members here, the vast majority give little credence to Traditional sources or rulings by religious "officials" or "courts".

And lastly, you said "There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof."

I dont see how what you stated provides evidence for "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further". Perhaps you can clarify by saying something like "This shows this because of XYZ" and actually present something specific.

You said "The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable."

matriarchal
(matriarchy) A social system in which the mother is head of household, having authority over men and children; A system of government by females
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/matriarchy

Matriarchy (also gynecocracy) refers to a gynecocentric form of society, in which the leading role is taken by the women and especially by the mothers of a community.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchal

Your making no sense. Are you implying the Bible demonstrates a "matriarchal structure" and Quran moves away from this to a more male-dominated structure?

[Hizbullah]

Common sense. God is telling women not to make a show of themselves, as we are taught many times by the assumpption that beauty is our foremost value and that whatever we loose we should never be anything but beautiful, and competitiveness for women has been placed on beauty.

So no competitiveness in beauty no displaying for the heck of it, because that is our mission in life, just be simple and if we have beautiful and firm breasts or eyelashes, or a striking necklace of pears or diamonds, not display it so that others are made to have to admire. Not make a show of ourselves. At home within our circle, if we like certain things, we may allow ourselves a certain leeway. They know us, they are used to us, so we may take that little pleasure, but no need to make a display of all our charms when we are among people who do not knows us intimately or among strangers. We are not ambulant shows, we are persons.

That is what I get from this aya as to showing or not showing. It is not what is seen of us, but what we show or exhibit.

Salaam

This is the best explanation on 2431

[huruf]

Thanks, Hizbullah,

I underline that what the aya says is not that things should not be seen but that things should not exhibited, not to make a show. That is why it is said "illa ma Thahara". That is, we do not have to hide beauty, but we must make a display of it. Beauty is beauty and seeing it is not offensive nor degrading, it is to thank God for it, that He has made life full of beauty, but to parade it or to take pride in it as if it was ours or a weapon and not a gift of God, is not ma Thahara, but exploitation of beauty. Women must now exploit beauty for gain (material or inmaterial) just like men must not exploit strength for gain. But neither has to hide either one; both must use it with humility, because all strength and all beauty is from God, and we will have to answer for what we have done with it.

Salaam

[mirjamnur]

Salam stopS

No, I am stating that the command of covering up for a woman is a contradiction to nature.

You are the creator so that you know what is contradiction to nature?

Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated.
from where you get this conclusion?

Hence my example of the nudist beach.
your ecample of the nudist beach works not everywhere...
On the other hand, a cleric in KSA reasoned that women should not drive because if the car were to fail she could be molested by men and raped while waiting for a tow-truck. Muslims who attempted to rape 2 of our female employees were taken to the cops by our security guards. They were released because the ladies were not wearing abayas and thus were taunting the men and then the women were kicked out of UAE. Tough laws for 2012.
yes this is very bad - KSA is one from the most bad place in the word in my eyes-

Have you never heard any? I am surprised.

The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable.
Then we have the leaning towards the Jewish heritage and the inherent polygyny for example.
Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
from which source ?
Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
malesh this it's for me slandering the prophet
To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
this is the usually explanation , but this is the truth?
I've collected more, but I would need to look for them. I reckon it's sufficient to answer your question for now.

peace peace

[StopS]

StopS,

It is interesting how you can confidently state what is and what is not part of nature. Humans have to cover up to some degree, otherwise they will either die of cold or receive far too much sun exposure.

If you learn biology you also learn about procreation rituals and behavioural patterns over time based on genes.

No, not really. Like I said, I was not covered at a nudist beach. And not everything is black and white. You can swim naked or sit in the shade. ~50% of our planet can sustain naked humans.

And just in case you are unfamiliar with the views of forum members here, the vast majority give little credence to Traditional sources or rulings by religious "officials" or "courts".

Thank you for reminding me.

And lastly, you said "There are many theories why the Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further, but none has any absolute proof."

I dont see how what you stated provides evidence for "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further". Perhaps you can clarify by saying something like "This shows this because of XYZ" and actually present something specific.

You said "The most prominent one is that matriarchal structures were no longer deemed desirable."

Your making no sense. Are you implying the Bible demonstrates a "matriarchal structure" and Quran moves away from this to a more male-dominated structure?

Oh, I am sorry, I thought I was quite clear. No problem, I'll explain. And this is not evidence, but an explanation.

The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic. The OT hammers out rule after rule regarding women and the NT even has Jesus treating his mother badly. (Just in case OT=Old Testament=Jewish Bible, NT=New Testament, Christian gospels) So the Koran carries on along this vein and addresses the situation where numerous tribes on the Arabian peninsula were ruled by women. Muhammad himself had a woman, Khadija, as boss, who was substantially older than him. The theory therefore is that the matriarchy was to be curbed and Islam used the sentences in the Koran to do that and establish the man as the head of a tribe, clan or family.

Does that clarify it?

[Wakas]

The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic. The OT hammers out rule after rule regarding women and the NT even has Jesus treating his mother badly. (Just in case OT=Old Testament=Jewish Bible, NT=New Testament, Christian gospels) So the Koran carries on along this vein and addresses the situation where numerous tribes on the Arabian peninsula were ruled by women. Muhammad himself had a woman, Khadija, as boss, who was substantially older than him. The theory therefore is that the matriarchy was to be curbed and Islam used the sentences in the Koran to do that and establish the man as the head of a tribe, clan or family.

Thanks for the explanation, but no, that does not clarify it.

Firstly, its news to me that the Arabian peninsula had numerous tribes ruled by women, although admittedly I have not studied this area. Care to cite some evidence?

And you said "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further", then later said "The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic." so if you take them as "highly" and claim Quran takes it a step further, then I can only assume you regard Quran as extremely misogynistic?

If so, please cite the top 5 most extremely misogynistic examples/rules you can find in Quran. Thanks. Feel free to start another thread.

[StopS]

Salam stopSpeace peace

This is a bit of a weird format, but I shall try and address the points as best I can.

You are the creator so that you know what is contradiction to nature?

I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of a creator, so I stick to science, as in biology in this case. Here I learnt that mating is the strongest drive in animals. It also dictates what we look like and why there are differences in looks between male and female used in courting if there are 2 genders. Some animal species don't have 2 genders and thus look identical.

Raping a woman is not part of nature, so the command for a woman to cover up lest she be molested is outdated.
from where you get this conclusion?

Rape outside of primates is very rare. It's biology. There is a hypothesis that considers rape to be a genetically advantageous behavioral adaptation, but I don't buy that.
Looking at civilisation, the sex drive of early humanoids who fought, captured and raped has given way to communication. That is the preferred and accepted norm today.

Hence my example of the nudist beach.
your ecample of the nudist beach works not everywhere...

Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?

Women were walking around without bothering about covering their boobs, which was then decided to be undesirable.
from which source ?

Several. Do you want one or 15? There are stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
People's view of the naked body in that era was different than ours. Just look at the Olympic Games at around that time where combatants rocked up naked. Islam did not develop in a void. People had habits and cultural differences. In some clans women were the boss, had legal rights and could own property and had defined inheritance rights all the way to genealogy being traced maternally.

Muhammad was intensely jealous, which resulted in commands valid until today which do not allow men even looking at Muhammad's wives and not allowing any man to marry them after he had passed away.
malesh this it's for me slandering the prophet

Really? The Koran slanders Muhammad, it's own messenger? laugh If you don't believe me, look at 3350, 3353, etc...

To distinguish themselves from slaves, Muslim females were allowed to cover themselves, following the example of Christian ladies when they went to church.
this is the usually explanation , but this is the truth?

I don't know. That's why I said there are several possible explanations why women are never told to cover themselves excepting hands and face in the Koran. Then there's the fact that Muslim women today wear different garments in different regions, demonstrating a human and cultural source for the social expectation.

[StopS]

Thanks for the explanation, but no, that does not clarify it.

Firstly, its news to me that the Arabian peninsula had numerous tribes ruled by women, although admittedly I have not studied this area. Care to cite some evidence?

And you said "Koran takes the misogyny of the Bibles a step further", then later said "The Bible comes in 2 editions, where both are highly misogynistic." so if you take them as "highly" and claim Quran takes it a step further, then I can only assume you regard Quran as extremely misogynistic?

If so, please cite the top 5 most extremely misogynistic examples/rules you can find in Quran. Thanks. Feel free to start another thread.

Hahaha, it seems I clarified it, but you are not satisfied with what I said.

No, come on, this is getting ridiculous. All I need to do is enter "matriarchy arabia" into Google and get 1000s of hits, all dealing with this. Do I really need to copy/paste them here?

"regard Quran as extremely misogynistic" Yes, indeed. And it surprises me that you even question this. Do I really need to find the Koran passages? Don't you know what status a female has in the Koran when compared to a man? How she is considered when a witness in court? How inheritance is defined? How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse? How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there? Come on, be realistic. Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male? It's right through the book. Look at reality today! And now look at society 1000 years ago. It was that era and it was acceptable then. Do you really want to collect all 50 or 60 sentences here?

[Wakas]

I only want the quality evidence, not some website anyone can write on. Some books would be good.

And if they are your examples of extreme misogyny, then allow me to clarify

How she is considered when a witness in court?
Misrepresentation. I assume you are alluding to the sole case of financial transaction when a witness is chosen. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm

How inheritance is defined?
IF no will is made (wherein someone can leave 100% to females if they wish), then in some situations the male gets more. The man is also made responsible for things the female is not, making it more balanced. See
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/women-less-share-inheritance-males.htm

How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.

How she has to behave and look and laws and rituals here and rituals there?
Conveniently vague. References please.

Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.

Your usual tactics may work on others, or other forums, but unlikely to work when it comes to Quran alone. ;D

[someoneoutthere]

Comments in green 3

How she is to react when her husband desires intercourse?
No idea what you're talking about there. References please.

StopS is probably thinking about the numerous hadith that say a woman cannot deny her husband sex (i.e angels cursing her until morning)

Can a woman have a non-Muslim spouse and can a male?
Let's say no. How does a woman with multiple husbands tell to whom belongs the child? Let us know, and bear in mind, whatever you come up with has to be universal and practical..... and not go against natural programming.

I reckon you've given a very good answer to a different question.

[mirjamnur]

Salam StopS

This is a bit of a weird format, but I shall try and address the points as best I can.

I don't believe there is evidence for the existence of a creator, so I stick to science, as in biology in this case. Here I learnt that mating is the strongest drive in animals. It also dictates what we look like and why there are differences in looks between male and female used in courting if there are 2 genders. Some animal species don't have 2 genders and thus look identical.

we don't speak now about the evolution theorie- but in the Quran we found the term Allah creates (chalak)
Kh-Lam-Qaf = To measure or proportion a thing, to form or make according to proper measure, bring into existence according to a certain measure, originate or produce after a pattern or model which one has devised, bring into existence from a state of non-existence (create out of nothing), to fabricate or forge a speech or saying, to make a thing equitable or even, make a thing smooth, to be probable or likely to happen (or likely to be or happen, or to have happened or been), act towards someone according to that person's nature, wear out a thing and make it old, to be fit/ competent/ suitable/ proper, to be complete or perfect in respect of make or proportion, have an innate/natural disposition/temperament/quality. (from http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Rape outside of primates is very rare. It's biology. There is a hypothesis that considers rape to be a genetically advantageous behavioral adaptation, but I don't buy that.
Looking at civilisation, the sex drive of early humanoids who fought, captured and raped has given way to communication. That is the preferred and accepted norm today.
what is norm today we should accept... Allah make a clear distincstion between animals and Adam/bani adam

Like where? Why don't you provide an example so that we all know what you are talking about?
like in Egypt example. or in Saudi Arabia ;D (in Saudi the men like to rape women even they are covered from head to feet... o

Several. Do you want one or 15? There are stelae, figurines and drawings as well as texts saying things like The men circumambulated the Ka'ba completely naked while women were wearing a piece of cloth in front and back and having one hand in front and the other behind.
secondary sources from old history of Arabia- i don't believe it at all... -
People's view of the naked body in that era was different than ours. Just look at the Olympic Games at around that time where combatants rocked up naked. Islam did not develop in a void. People had habits and cultural differences. In some clans women were the boss, had legal rights and could own property and had defined inheritance rights all the way to genealogy being traced maternally.
yes o.k but what has this to do with the Quran

Really? The Koran slanders Muhammad, it's own messenger? laugh If you don't believe me, look at 3350, 3353, etc...
no not Quran slanders Muhammad, the reader who makes conclusions and interpretation from his own brain...Allah never says Muhammad was jealous

I don't know. That's why I said there are several possible explanations why women are never told to cover themselves excepting hands and face in the Koran. Then there's the fact that Muslim women today wear different garments in different regions, demonstrating a human and cultural source for the social expectation.

for this i'm always carefully to make quick conclusions .

Salams peace