Salat, fastng, hajj
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Salam all,
One of the very strong arguments that people in the GOD alone movement cite why muslims don't need hadith is the fact that muslims lived for at least two hundred years without the power of Hadith and that they did fine. Another argument is the fact that we cannot authenticate hadith. I totally agree and that is why I am here.
My point is this during those two hundred years, muslims performed Salat, Fasting and pilgrimage wih general agreement and did not have the intense debate that we are having here. This is probably because thousands of muslims witnessed the prophet perform all of them and therefore they followed. They may have had little disagreement on details but they generally did fine. I believe that the way muslims perform all those functions now are compatible with the Qur'an.
My question is this Do we refuse Hadith because we cannot be sure that it is authentic? If so then the way muslims perform Salat, pilgrimage, hajj seems authentic to me just because of the sheer size of the people that watched the prophet do it. I would not be a stickler to the details, however, because GOD in the Qur'an was not.
Or Do we refuse anything that Muhammad said or did that was not in the Qu'an? Then we have to remember that GOD saw Muhamad do all of those acts and did not tell him not to in the Qur'an.
Please share with me your opinions regarding this issue.
Hussein
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Salaam,
wih general agreement and did not have the intense debate that we are having here.
How did you come to this conclusion? Whose version of history? As far as I am aware the most cleansed history is clear about the existence of disputes.
I believe that the way muslims perform all those functions now are compatible with the Qur'an.
We are not suppose to follow conjecture and what we don't know...1736
My question is this Do we refuse Hadith because we cannot be sure that it is authentic?
GOD told us Qur'an is complete, perfected and fully detailed, His is the best hadith. Even if it were authentic, its clearly unauthorised to take any other source but Qur'an for guidance.
"If so then the way muslims perform Salat, pilgrimage, hajj seems authentic to me just because of the sheer size of the people that watched the prophet do it."
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
Does this verse answer you?
Or Do we refuse anything that Muhammad said or did that was not in the Qu'an?
You can't know what he said except what is in the Qur'an, which was inpsired by Allah. We can follow what he says in the Qur'an e.g. 2530. but the point is to follow guidance sent by Allah.
Peace D
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Peace Hlatif
I understand where you're coming from.... and I think it comes down to how you view your relationship to the prophet Muhammad.
For example - I am increasingly prepared to believe he prayed 5 times a day. I can't accept the argument that the 5 prayers were foisted into Islam at some later date by the Zorastorian hadithists (although its justificaton for it surely was - the whole Muhammad barter story is such shirk.) Not least because there is no evidence to suggest that this change occured.
However, I am also convinced the Allah has commanded THREE daily prayers in al-quran.
So where does this leave us? If you believe the Muhammad was a walking quran (like the hadithist do) then its very difficult. If you accept Muhammad as the messenger of Allah, charged only with the task of delivering the message it becomes less problematic. Because God has ordered you to follow his commands and explicitly told you that Muhammad has not been sent as a judge or lord. In 6107 we read
And if Allah had pleased, they would not have set up others (with Him) and We have not appointed you a keeper over them, and you are not placed in charge of them.
(SHAKIR)Sometimes God Alone people follow the hadithist logic in an unthinking way - for example the arguement that goes "there cannot have been 5 daily prayers in the time of the prophet because it is unthinkable that Muhammad would disobey al-Quran"
I think we need the formulate a more fluid relationship to the revelation in which it is seen as a guidance and a mercy - not as a rulebook like the Sunni's imagine it to be. Thus my understanding is that God commmanded THREE daily salat times but I believe Muhammad prayed more often that that - 5, 6 maybe 7 times a day. Its no concern of mine when or how he prayed. My concern is to be truthful in my relationship to the message he delivered.
The quran tells us that Muhammad was a good example. (3321) I try to follow his example as much as I know of it from the stories that have come down about him. I believe the example Allah was refering to was his social conduct, not his nail clipping habits, when that verse was revealed. Just like Abraham is a good example to us (6004) - like in 1175 when we are told he was without doubt, forbearing (of faults), compassionate, and given to look to Allah . This is what is means to be God conscious, to combat your own pride, to be oft-returning to Allah.
I don't know if the distinction I am trying to draw is clear - in my mind it is but I've been mulling over it for some time. In a way its a difficult thing to articulate since it implies a rejection of the prophets sunnah - the thing God Aloners are accused of and claim not to be doing. But increasingly that the only way I can rationalise the difference between Islam as it has been handed down and Islam as Allah sets it out in al-Quran.
I think we need to be more upfront about that. Other arguments about the quran containing the actual sunnah of Muhammad are beginning to feel like sophistry to me.
salaams
asdfjk
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Do we refuse Hadith because we cannot be sure that it is authentic?
The question of AUTHENTICITY, which is related to AUTHORITY
Hadith has has very questionable authenticity. Even the Hadith scholars are cognizant of this.
In addition, Hadith has no Authority. That is, the Quran does not mandate adherence to Hadith as a neccassary requirement of Islam.Do we refuse anything that Muhammad said or did that was not in the Qu'an
I do not refuse Hadith. It exists and may shed some historical insights and good advice. I refuse its authority as religous law. Only God can create religous law.
But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper. 16.116
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Thank you guys for your answers and your points are well taken. I think that the 3 prayers a day are fine with me. I also believe that the Qur'an has all the answers that we need.
Brother Ashura, I am aware of the divisions that occurred in the first 200 years of Islam. However, I am not aware that those divisions included any of the above. Perhaps you can enlighten me how the different groups prayed.
Shi'is and Sunnis pray nearly the same way and the Schism ocurred before Bukhari. Muslims did not wait for Bukhari to tell them how to pray, how to fast or how to perform Hajj. They have already been doing it for two hundred years.
This is the dilemma that we face as Free-minders. We believe that the Qur'an provides us with all the answers related to the Salat, fasting and Hajj. We also believe that the Qur'an is simple and easy to understand. How do you guys then explain all the array of different opnions that related to Salat, Hajj and fasting that are voiced in this forum? We are not even able to decide what those issues are exactly.
Can we reach a consensus as to what are main rules that relate to the above? For example, is Salat physical or just spiritual? do we perform Hajj or no? To where?, how many days is the fasting period?
If we cannot arrive at a general understanding of those issues then our argument with the Hadithists in those areas is very week.
Please understand that my points are out of concern and not as points against the free-minds group. Salam
Hussein
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Peace Hlatif,
Shi'is and Sunnis pray nearly the same way and the Schism ocurred before Bukhari. Muslims did not wait for Bukhari to tell them how to pray, how to fast or how to perform Hajj. They have already been doing it for two hundred years.
Actually they are not the same...Shia believe in 3 Salat times per day, during which they carry-out 5 Salats (i.e. they join zuhur & asr, and they join maghrib & isha).
This is the dilemma that we face as Free-minders. We believe that the Qur'an provides us with all the answers related to the Salat, fasting and Hajj. We also believe that the Qur'an is simple and easy to understand. How do you guys then explain all the array of different opnions that related to Salat, Hajj and fasting that are voiced in this forum? We are not even able to decide what those issues are exactly.
I believe what is occuring here on this site and others is a natural progression of debate and thought...We are comming on the sceme after 1,400 years from the revelation of the Quran and are overwhelmed with the distortions that have found their way into the system of Islam.
With debates the result will be that the most correct arguments will stand the test of debate and questioning...We should not be worried about that.
