Errors in Translations of the Quran... 4:34
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And why wouldn't you be satisfied with the Authorized translation of Dr. Rashad Khalifa PhD, the messenger of the covenant?
???
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Why would a sentence in the Koran be distorted?
434
- Men are in charge of women
- Allah has made some of them excel the others, and because of the wealth they have spent
- Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.
- As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them.
- Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest.
This reflects the ancient patriarchal society, where the man is the head of the family and in control of his wife/wives/slave girls. Where is the error?
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Why would a sentence in the Koran be distorted?
434
- Men are in charge of women
- Allah has made some of them excel the others, and because of the wealth they have spent
- Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.
- As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them.
- Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest.
This reflects the ancient patriarchal society, where the man is the head of the family and in control of his wife/wives/slave girls. Where is the error?
Exactly! I totally agree. Where is the error?
Do Not Beat Your Wife*
The men are made responsible for the women,** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.*434 God prohibits wife-beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don't want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife-beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this sura is defending the women's rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this sura must be in favor of the women. This sura's theme is "protection of women."
**434 This expression simply means that God is appointing the husband as "captain of the ship." Marriage is like a ship, and the captain runs it after due consultation with his officers. A believing wife readily accepts God's appointment, without mutiny.Besides, it is not only the ancient patriarchal society, it is the natural order of things!
The so-called "feminist emancipation" and stupid women rights are innovations because man and woman are equal in all, BUT are NOT the same!!!On the other side, there are righteous women
And GOD cites as an example of those who believed the wife of Pharaoh. She said, "My Lord, build a home for me at You in Paradise, and save me from Pharaoh and his works; save me from the transgressing people."
(also Isa's mother Mary)
So, as well as men, women also can be righteous or an abomination in the "eyes" of God!
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Woman lives Biblically in Tennessee for one year; Rachel Held Evans says calling husband 'master' was 'weird'
A woman who lived Biblically for a year in Tennessee said the experience was both rewarding and at times, weird.
http//www.clarionledger.com/article/20121018/NEWS/121018004/Woman-lives-Biblically-Tennessee-one-year-Rachel-Held-Evans-says-calling-husband-master-weird-
http//www.ibtimes.com/woman-lives-biblically-rachel-held-evans-calls-husband-master-cuts-hair-writes-about-it-photo-848329
http//rachelheldevans.com/biblical-womanhood/
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Why would a sentence in the Koran be distorted?
Are you implying you cannot fathom that imperfect humans can and would distort the meaning of a text to gain advantage in some way?
It may be distorted, it may not. Only one way to find out, weigh up the evidence.
Please see www.Quran434.com for a detailed analysis of this verse.
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Are you implying you cannot fathom that imperfect humans can and would distort the meaning of a text to gain advantage in some way?
It may be distorted, it may not. Only one way to find out, weigh up the evidence.
Please see www.Quran434.com for a detailed analysis of this verse.
I am not implying anything. I looked at the claim, which calls a sentence in the Koran distorted. It does not mention humans or any action.
I am aware of the fact that today Muslims are embarrassed about what it says there regarding corporal punishment and try to soften the blow, so to speak. The OP did not mention anything about this and I wonder why you assume this is only about the allowed beating of a wife. I did not see anything about this and did not see any need to address it.
Sorry? What evidence? For what? How does one find evidence for a statement? If it says "a > b", how do I evidence this?
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StopS,
When people refer to 434 in the way of the OP, they usually are referring to the claim of wife beating/striking/etc.
And with regards to evidence, it's rather simple. If one thinks a statement means X, and the other Y - weigh up the evidence for each. If the evidence can only be as per Quran, then things are much easier. Feel free to try it..... assuming you actually wish to determine the truth that is.
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I am not implying anything. I looked at the claim, which calls a sentence in the Koran distorted. It does not mention humans or any action.
I am aware of the fact that today Muslims are embarrassed about what it says there regarding corporal punishment and try to soften the blow, so to speak. The OP did not mention anything about this and I wonder why you assume this is only about the allowed beating of a wife. I did not see anything about this and did not see any need to address it.
Sorry? What evidence? For what? How does one find evidence for a statement? If it says "a > b", how do I evidence this?
Who is embarrassed? Of course I am not embarrassed, tht you would like... Tht is the usual cue of islamophobes when one does not give in into the ignorance and their talking about what they do not know.
By the way, those translations in blue letters in one message of the thread, to me seem pretty awful, with plenty of things that are not in the original and the initial translation also is not particularly faithful.
But never mind Mr Stops, you can continue pouring your superior wisdom on us. Take in in stride if we are not obliging by being embarrassed, specially in front of you who do not have the faintest idea of what you are talking about, nor when you speak about the Qur'an nor anything else.
Salaam
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salaam Edip,
Can you give a summary of the view in the video here, or is it the same as Reformist Quran Translation?
Thanks.
Yes, the same Wakas.
I was interested in reading your article on Masjid al-Haram. But I am currently very busy. Can you please send me its word or pdf version?
Peace,
Edip -
When people refer to 434 in the way of the OP, they usually are referring to the claim of wife beating/striking/etc.
And with regards to evidence, it's rather simple. If one thinks a statement means X, and the other Y - weigh up the evidence for each. If the evidence can only be as per Quran, then things are much easier. Feel free to try it..... assuming you actually wish to determine the truth that is.
Ok, thank you, I was not aware of that. The OP was cryptic and did not refer to anything and did not mention anything specific, which is why I welcomed your request for a summary.
What about what I have said is my statement #4 (As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them.) is a claim? I would think it is a command, or a set of commands.
I must have expressed myself wrongly. Evidence is something which points to a fact without being proof of the fact itself. I hope I got that right. You suggested one should weigh up the evidence. I don't understand what the evidence is or could be. What is the fact under dispute which would require evidence?
I am at a loss! "evidence can only be as per Quran". Say what? I quote the Koran verbatim and get told I should try using the Koran?
"assuming you actually wish to determine the truth that is" oh boy, the second time I hear this doubtful undertone. What am I doing wrong? Am I asking direct questions without adhering to some protocol? Am I asking questions I am not allowed to ask? Am I overstepping some invisible line? I am not aware of contravening any rules in the Free-Minds posting guidelines, so what is it? You're an administrator here, so you should be able to answer that. Thanks.
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Who is embarrassed? Of course I am not embarrassed, tht you would like... Tht is the usual cue of islamophobes when one does not give in into the ignorance and their talking about what they do not know.
By the way, those translations in blue letters in one message of the thread, to me seem pretty awful, with plenty of things that are not in the original and the initial translation also is not particularly faithful.
But never mind Mr Stops, you can continue pouring your superior wisdom on us. Take in in stride if we are not obliging by being embarrassed, specially in front of you who do not have the faintest idea of what you are talking about, nor when you speak about the Qur'an nor anything else.
Salaam
Great!
I don't have a definition if "Islamophobe", so I am ignorant here, sorry.
"translations in blue" submitted by me?
Sarcasm? Have I deserved it? But then again I am with the experts here, who can teach me what I don't know about the Koran, right? I have no idea whether you can teach me anything else.
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I must have expressed myself wrongly. Evidence is something which points to a fact without being proof of the fact itself. I hope I got that right. You suggested one should weigh up the evidence. I don't understand what the evidence is or could be. What is the fact under dispute which would require evidence?
I am at a loss! "evidence can only be as per Quran". Say what? I quote the Koran verbatim and get told I should try using the Koran?
No, you are in fact quoting a translation of Quran.
A question you have to ask, if you wish to determine the truth of the matter, is does the Arabic words mean what you have translated them as?
Simple.
"assuming you actually wish to determine the truth that is" oh boy, the second time I hear this doubtful undertone. What am I doing wrong? Am I asking direct questions without adhering to some protocol? Am I asking questions I am not allowed to ask? Am I overstepping some invisible line? I am not aware of contravening any rules in the Free-Minds posting guidelines, so what is it? You're an administrator here, so you should be able to answer that. Thanks.
To me, it seems you are claiming the logical/scientific approach, yet when you are questioned, your approach seems to unravel. Maybe its just me who notices that.
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And why wouldn't you be satisfied with the Authorized translation of Dr. Rashad Khalifa PhD, the messenger of the covenant?
???
Not everyone accepts Khalifa's translation as "authorized" or him as a "messenger". Some do and some have opinions in between. To each his own.
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No, you are in fact quoting a translation of Quran.
A question you have to ask, if you wish to determine the truth of the matter, is does the Arabic words mean what you have translated them as?
Simple.
Simple indeed. I read a translation of an Arabic text. The people who translated it are all experts in their field and the most knowledgeable scholars on the subject. Why would I doubt their expertise?
To double check I consult the old Tafsirs and find the same explanation. To make sure I read the hadiths on beating and punishment and it confirms it. I tend to disregard the Hadiths, but nevertheless that leaves me with a consistent picture.Now someone comes along who says this is distorted. Should I now drop everything I have learnt and say of course! this guy knows much more than all the experts in their fields and can decide that a word should actually mean something completely different? But then I should also ask myself how much of the rest of the Koran was translated accurately? Maybe everything is distorted? Or maybe not everything but only portions. But what portions? Who decides what is wrongly translated and what is correct? You?
Why would a super-natural being who wants to guide humans to salvation use words which can be "distorted"? Why not make something which is important abundantly clear? Why not, if using a language like Arabic, where words can have multiple meanings, create a context which explains such actions which are considered despicable in the 21st century?
To me, it seems you are claiming the logical/scientific approach, yet when you are questioned, your approach seems to unravel. Maybe its just me who notices that.
If I try and understand what people who believe there is evidence for the existence of a god think, I have only my brain to do so. My brain has evolved into one which primarily uses the "logical/scientific approach" when analysing a situation.
Now it gets confusing when questioned, my approach unravels? To what? How? Revealing what?
I asked some very specific questions. Why not answer them? -
Simple indeed. I read a translation of an Arabic text. The people who translated it are all experts in their field and the most knowledgeable scholars on the subject. Why would I doubt their expertise?
Oh dear.
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
My brain has evolved into one which primarily uses the "logical/scientific approach" when analysing a situation.
;D
Now it gets confusing when questioned, my approach unravels? To what? How? Revealing what?
Exhibit A see above.
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Oh dear.
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
;D
Exhibit A see above.
I think we need to leave this. You have some issue which makes you blind with rage somehow and clouds your brain.
You can't even read your own quotes any longer and really confuse stuff. You don't understand what a fallacy is and you are now starting to embarrass yourself.
Just as a pointer if you don't address my points but my person, THAT is a fallacy. I need to enjoy a meaningful discussion. Others here can engage in a civilised conversation.
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I think we need to leave this. You have some issue which makes you blind with rage somehow and clouds your brain.
You can't even read your own quotes any longer and really confuse stuff. You don't understand what a fallacy is and you are now starting to embarrass yourself.
Just as a pointer if you don't address my points but my person, THAT is a fallacy. I need to enjoy a meaningful discussion. Others here can engage in a civilised conversation.
Selam StopS,
I'm curious to how you can agree that God could tell you as a last resort to beat your woman. Maybe it could be a different upbringing since most men and women in my area believe beating eachother up in general (regardless of sex) is wrong and a more subtle and civilised approach is the way to go. I cannot see how you have come to the conclusion that Allah says "beat them". This is the same verse I read from Yusuf Ali the first time I read the Qur'an and I'll tell you now, looking at the original arabic of the Qur'an is the only way to decipher REALLY what is meant. As for trusting scholars, are you serious? Do you not reckon that maybe these 'scholars' have not a slightly biased view and 'certain things'? I urge you to use the arabic to check what the word could possibly mean in English (or whatever language you want) but bare in mind it has to also fit in the context of the verse. The first time I was relieved and realised how wrong this translation was was when I read an article a very long time ago (can't remember the link).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603066.0
That was also a very good topic on the matter. May we all be corrected if our interpretations of things are wrong, however bare in mind Allah does wish for us to use our logic and reasoning... that's what we have it for.
peace
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Selam StopS,
I'm curious to how you can agree that God could tell you as a last resort to beat your woman. Maybe it could be a different upbringing since most men and women in my area believe beating eachother up in general (regardless of sex) is wrong and a more subtle and civilised approach is the way to go.
Well, if I read a sentence and someone who lives by this book the entire life tells me that a god wrote it, what should I do?
Well, where I come from
434
- Men are in charge of women
- Allah has made some of them excel the others, and because of the wealth they have spent
- Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.
- As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them.
- Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest.
ALL the sentences are a cause for concern. For example in modern societies living in the 21st century, men are NOT in charge of women. Maybe where you live it is normal, but not in my part of the planet.
I cannot see how you have come to the conclusion that Allah says "beat them".
If you can't see it, then you should read it in ancient Arabic and then compare different translations in whatever language you are comfortable in. If I accept that the issue at hand is solely centred around one single word and not any of the rest of these sentences, this is pretty poor and really petty stuff.
This is the same verse I read from Yusuf Ali the first time I read the Qur'an and I'll tell you now, looking at the original arabic of the Qur'an is the only way to decipher REALLY what is meant. As for trusting scholars, are you serious? Do you not reckon that maybe these 'scholars' have not a slightly biased view and 'certain things'?
Actually, no, I don't reckon that scholars and Muslim translators such as Marmaduke Pickthal have a biased view on "certain things" - whatever these "certain things" are. I more suspect and reckon you have a biased view.
I urge you to use the arabic to check what the word could possibly mean in English (or whatever language you want) but bare in mind it has to also fit in the context of the verse. The first time I was relieved and realised how wrong this translation was was when I read an article a very long time ago (can't remember the link).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603066.0
That was also a very good topic on the matter. May we all be corrected if our interpretations of things are wrong, however bare in mind Allah does wish for us to use our logic and reasoning... that's what we have it for.
If I concentrate only on this one word and check the Arabic, I come across the same thing beat, scourge. Only in the last couple of years, Muslims who don't like this and are considered backwards for beating women have started looking for alternative explanations and re-interpretations and have come up with inserting "lightly", introducing the miswak and all sorts of funny things, instead of owning up and tackling this head on.
If you liked the topic in the previous edition of this sentence then you prefer a less violent way of solving disputes, which honours you as a person, but in my opinion and from what I have gathered is not what the Koran dictates.
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Only in the last couple of years, Muslims who don't like this and are considered backwards for beating women have started looking for alternative explanations and re-interpretations and have come up with inserting "lightly", introducing the miswak and all sorts of funny things, instead of owning up and tackling this head on.
This shows your ignorance.
If you had bothered to read the link I gave you www.Quran434.com you'd have known this
Ibn Abbas (alleged companion of prophet Muhammad) gave his view on the severity of hitting, and said it is as with a small stick, e.g. siwak. The famous jurist, Al Shafi (about 200 hundred years after prophet Muhammad's death), interpreted it as a "miswak" which is a small stick used for cleaning the teeth. Another famous commentator, Razi, quotes another early jurist who said it can be a coiled scarf (mindil malfuf).
Please try again.
