Is it okay for a rape culprit to get away unless there were 4 witnesses?
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357, how lovely it is to have you back. I think Huruf is right. Rape is not zina. After all the word used in 24/2 is zaniyah which shows that person wilfully particpated in the act. That is contrary to the definition of rape.
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I think Zina and Rape is two different thing.
Zina is consensual sex where as Rape is not. Rape is oppression for example in the following verse
4025 Then, when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Kill the children of those who acknowledged with him, and shame their women." But the scheming of the ingrates is always in error.
There is example in the following verses that circumstantial evidence could be used in case of Rape. DNA test is common nowadays
1225-1228
Where as in case of Zina/adultery 4 witness has been mentioned to my understanding discourage and warn the wicked people who blame innocent women of committing adultery.
244 And those who accuse the protected women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
Peace
Abdullah
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And when the accuser is not eirther of the partners?
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If it is a rape then the accuser is making a claim of aggression towards themselves, not infidelity/fornication. Which is out of the bounds of the 4 witness law.
If the accuser is privy to the knowledge of a person cheating on someone else they would do very good to keep their mouth shut and gather the necessary evidence or witnesses. Clearly as Huruf said the desired outcome is first and foremost social stability as all the zanis are going to meet their bitter punishment at the hands of one able and wise in their own due time.
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Salaams Br's,
I agree with you in that rape isn't same as Zina - consensual sex, but pitty is that the four witness law is applied to rape cases aswell in Pakistan, Bangladesh........., and women raped don't get any justice as no body can gather the four witnesses.
Even putting that aside if you see your daughter or mother or sister in law or daughter in law or someone else close to you who you may want to protect............., even then you cannot accuse them- so they safe guard themselves, of anything due to the four witnesses being required.
Four does not mean four in the quran, to my knowledge.
peace
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peace
I have always understood it as needing 4 witnesses , otherwise a female can't complain of a rape, if she does then she must be punished for not providing 4 witnesses.
Some people are so much programmed with traditional beliefs , they agree with this law , well as do all traditionalists and their alims and molvis, but what do the people here think?
peace
The four witness was designed for slander and to prevent someone from slandering even if he actually saw something. This is the Quran's way of telling people to mind their own business when it comes to adultery. Its four times easier for a person to be punished for slandering than for adultery. The aduletry side is symbolic like Moses telling his people to take their lives. Of course very few people can do something like that so God forgave them. But the goal is to make us understand the magnitude of the sin.
Rape is not adultery or slandering. Rape falls into the same category as murder and theft. Its enough to establish the guilt. But with adultery the issue is far more complicated since there is a conflict between individual freedom and another party's rights.
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free for all, is this what the quran is teaching?
confused
Salaam, 357,
I have the feeling that you give a lot of store to people punishing people. But people make mistakes and they are no authority.
You know it is not free for all, but it is not free for all either spying on people, persecuting people and trying to force the rules to punish people. Don't you think the best punisher es God? What better punisher do you want? Do you think there are not many other sins and meanness in the world that go unpunished by people, do you also say in those cases that it is free for all? If I cheat, since the Qur'an does not impose on anybody to lash me or do anything to me, is it free for me to cheat?
Please, do quote something from the Qur'an which warrants what you say it warrants.
What I find from the whole content of the 20 first ayas of An-nur is that God does not approve of those who go around looking for filth or displaying it.
Privacy os no whim. Without privacy most people if not all would be punishable from many points of view. If we uncover everything looking for filth we would all end up buried in filth. Modesty is that, to keep our shames for ourselves and not expose others to them. Wrongs can be righted any time by those itnerested. Who is calling you to uncover people who may improve, who may learn through errors? Are you perfect in everywise? What is it to you if a spouse has an adulterous partner and wants to be patient or understand that he or she may have given a motive to his or her partner to fall into such behaviour? ?What do you know? It is not your business. It is theirs. Let them live and learn and suffer if they have to. If they ask for your help, help them, but do not walk in as if you were coming down from mount Sinai with God's wrath, it is not your business. Let them repent if they want or not repent and suffer, but do not assume an authority you do not have.
As said, quote from the Qur'an anythign that warrants such a behaviour.
Salaam
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free for all, is this what the quran is teaching?
confused
If you read the verse the Quran says that if a person accuses someone of adultery he should bring forth his witnesses or else he can be punished. Now this person maybe saying the truth, but the Quran is not interested. I have said before regarding this matter that the Quran dealt with the issue of adultery as an exception. You can take that exception as meaning adultery only or that anything that is sensitive in a society.
In the past in America accusing a black man of raping a white women was deadly. In Pakistan accusing a Christian of insulting Islam or Muhammad can also be deadly, this is also the case in other Muslim societies. It depends on how you look at. People can see the verses of the Quran in different angles. We can look at it as being only adultery or we can can look at it as anything that creates harm simply by accusation.
An honor killing, or honour killing is the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members, due to the belief of the perpetrators that the victim has brought dishonor upon the family or community. Honor killings are directed mostly against women and girls.
The perceived dishonor is normally the result of one of the following behaviors, or the suspicion of such behaviors dressing in a manner unacceptable to the family or community, wanting to terminate or prevent an arranged marriage or desiring to marry by own choice, especially if to a member of a social group deemed inappropriate, engaging in heterosexual acts outside marriage and engaging in homosexual acts.
Many women's groups in the Middle East and Southwest Asia suspect that more than 20,000 women are honor killed each year.
CultureFurther information Namus
Part of a series on
Violence
against womenIssues
Acid throwing ?Breast ironing ?Bride burning ?Dating violence ?Domestic violence ?Dowry death ?Honor killing ?Female genital mutilation (Gishiri cutting ?Infibulation) ?Foot binding ?Forced prostitution ?Human trafficking ?Marital rape ?Murder of pregnant women ?Rape ?Pregnancy from rape ?Sati ?Sexual slavery ?Sexual violence ?Violence against prostitutes
Other
Outline of domestic violence
v ?t ?eSharif Kanaana, professor of anthropology at Birzeit University, says that honor killing is
A complicated issue that cuts deep into the history of Arab society. .. What the men of the family, clan, or tribe seek control of in a patrilineal society is reproductive power. Women for the tribe were considered a factory for making men. The honour killing is not a means to control sexual power or behavior. What's behind it is the issue of fertility, or reproductive power.
An Amnesty International statement addsThe regime of honour is unforgiving women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honour by attacking the woman.
Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, an anthropology professor at Rhode Island College, explains how honor killings can be viewed in cultural relativist terms. She writes that the act, or even alleged act, of any female sexual misconduct, upsets moral order for the culture of interest and bloodshed is the only way to remove any shame brought about by the actions and restore social equilibrium.Changing cultural and economic status of women has also been used to explain the occurrences of honor killings. Women in largely patriarchal cultures who have gained economic independence from their families go against their male-dominated culture. Some researchers argue that the shift towards greater responsibility for women and less for their fathers may cause their male family members to act in oppressive and sometimes violent manners in order to regain authority.
This change of culture can also be seen to have an effect in Western cultures such as Britain where honor killings often arise from women seeking greater independence and adopting seemingly Western values. For women who trace their ancestry back to the Middle East or South Asia, wearing clothes that are considered Western, having a boyfriend, or refusing to accept an arranged marriage are all offenses that can and have led to an honor killing.
Cultural implications can often be seen in public and private views of honor killings. In some cultures, honor killings are considered less serious than other murders simply because they arise from long-standing cultural traditions and are thus deemed appropriate or justifiable. Additionally, according to a poll done by the BBC?s Asian network, 1 in 10 of the 500 Hindus, Sikhs, Christians and Muslims surveyed said they would condone any murder of someone who threatened their family?s honor. The poll demonstrated how the notion of honor killings and views of whether they are acceptable and justifiable crosses religion and is more contingent on the family?s social culture.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
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Salaam, 357,
I have the feeling that you give a lot of store to people punishing people. But people make mistakes and they are no authority.
You know it is not free for all, but it is not free for all either spying on people, persecuting people and trying to force the rules to punish people. Don't you think the best punisher es God? What better punisher do you want? Do you think there are not many other sins and meanness in the world that go unpunished by people, do you also say in those cases that it is free for all? If I cheat, since the Qur'an does not impose on anybody to lash me or do anything to me, is it free for me to cheat?
Please, do quote something from the Qur'an which warrants what you say it warrants.
What I find from the whole content of the 20 first ayas of An-nur is that God does not approve of those who go around looking for filth or displaying it.
Privacy os no whim. Without privacy most people if not all would be punishable from many points of view. If we uncover everything looking for filth we would all end up buried in filth. Modesty is that, to keep our shames for ourselves and not expose others to them. Wrongs can be righted any time by those itnerested. Who is calling you to uncover people who may improve, who may learn through errors? Are you perfect in everywise? What is it to you if a spouse has an adulterous partner and wants to be patient or understand that he or she may have given a motive to his or her partner to fall into such behaviour? ?What do you know? It is not your business. It is theirs. Let them live and learn and suffer if they have to. If they ask for your help, help them, but do not walk in as if you were coming down from mount Sinai with God's wrath, it is not your business. Let them repent if they want or not repent and suffer, but do not assume an authority you do not have.
As said, quote from the Qur'an anythign that warrants such a behaviour.
Salaam
No punsihment, so that is your opinion, that why punish a culprit.
Lets see a real life scenario;
I know a person who tried to do his sister because the mother was dead, the poor girl told her aunt - but there was no action taken. The same culprit impregnated another young girl , the aunt in which case gave the impregnated girl money for having an abortion-so it stays all hush hush. The Culprit then impregnates his uncles wife who bears the child the husband brought the matter up saying that the child wasn't his but of the culprit , but no solid proof and four witnesses.
Sholdn't such a person.the culprit be brought to account wothout the four witnesses or you don't mind him having a go with someones sister or mother or daughter? or will you still want four witnesses?
peace
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No punsihment, so that is your opinion, that why punish a culprit.
Lets see a real life scenario;
I know a person who tried to do his sister because the mother was dead, the poor girl told her aunt - but there was no action taken. The same culprit impregnated another young girl , the aunt in which case gave the impregnated girl money for having an abortion-so it stays all hush hush. The Culprit then impregnates his uncles wife who bears the child the husband brought the matter up saying that the child wasn't his but of the culprit , but no solid proof and four witnesses.
Sholdn't such a person.the culprit be brought to account wothout the four witnesses or you don't mind him having a go with someones sister or mother or daughter? or will you still want four witnesses?
peace
The verses of the Quran was talking about adultery and slandering of married partners. In this case it seems its talking about incest. This is a very complicated matter but the culprit is not solely responsible unless he raped. But if no child comes along from this sexual act I can't see how anyone can be prosecuted for this.
The uncle case its his wife who has commited adultery and not the culprit. And if there is no proof so how can anyone be prosecuted? The child sould be still the uncle's if there is no proof. If its proven that the child is the culprit than the child should be named after the culprit. The uncle should divorce his wife. Under no circumstances should a believer live with an adulterer. But the wife is wrong here and not the culprit. He has no obligation to another party.
As far as the uncle wife than she should take an oath as the Quran claims. But the culprit is not respnsible here.
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No punsihment, so that is your opinion, that why punish a culprit.
Lets see a real life scenario;
I know a person who tried to do his sister because the mother was dead, the poor girl told her aunt - but there was no action taken. The same culprit impregnated another young girl , the aunt in which case gave the impregnated girl money for having an abortion-so it stays all hush hush. The Culprit then impregnates his uncles wife who bears the child the husband brought the matter up saying that the child wasn't his but of the culprit , but no solid proof and four witnesses.
Sholdn't such a person.the culprit be brought to account wothout the four witnesses or you don't mind him having a go with someones sister or mother or daughter? or will you still want four witnesses?
peace
What you relate here if I have not got it wrong is that that man is abusing his male power precisely to overpower women in his family and you have not been very detailed inc ircumstances. If there extortion, blackmail, abuse of position or any means of presure or thread which is what usually happens in those cases of domestic abuse, that is not zina, which would mean that two people freely, of their own will angage in that. If it is no through their own will, but there is imposition by whichever means, that is somethign else, much uglier than zina, it is rape, it is abuse. That should go through ordinary criminal courts or trial. No treatment of zina.
The problem in these cases is to proove the facts. If there are no witnesses or marks of the use of violence... and add to that that the victim may be more afraid even than the culprit to acknowledge what happenned because she may be ashamed or may fear that she will be dispised or punished... Silence is guaranteed.
In that kind of event, the environment means all. If it is one where you can dennounce and report the events, it may no be proved in court, but still tha culprit will be known and everythign will not fall on her. And there is no question about being accused of slander because the women so abused should not accuse of zina, of course, but of abuse, coertion or whatever the case may be.
Zina is not a catch all of all any lewd action. Zina is Zina, it is not sexual abuse, nor coertion, etc. etc.
Too bad that there should be confusion on those terms. Too bad. If that kind of thing is going on, then it should be disclosed and those potential victims protected. By the time he has reached already three or four women, it should not be too complicated. Why he and not any other men? May be it is a matter of changing mindsets.
Four witnesses would be needed, if it was the victim that was accused of zina. But it is he who should be accused not of zina, but of whatever abusive acts he has committed.
Salaam
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Well let me put my case another way;
As i have said time and again there is no 4 in the quran;
you can have four liers , three liers , two liers and ONE LIER SO THE NUMBER DOESN'T MATTER ONE BIT.
It is all about how strong /weighty the evidance is whether it be from one person two persons three persons four persons .........irrespective of the number.
hmm