Adultery
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Salaam All,
Released, I hope you are and your family are settling in nicely into your new home and that the little one's routine adjusts soon---the sleepless nights are tough! Your descriptions of her early attempts to crawl made me laugh but its amazing how someone so little can have so much grit and determination and perseverance to try and keep progressing and learning despite setbacks like bruised bottoms, tumbles and falls! )
Yes, I have only one child and always wanted a girl and the Creator was kind enough to bless me with her. Ah, the teen/tween years, indeed, the drama, the crushes, the emotions and angst...should be fun
Though the thing that scares me most is teen drug use. Just about everything else I can (hopefully) cope with but I saw my younger cousin start taking drugs for 'fun' with friends in his mid teens and things just spiralled right out of control and his life is pretty much in tatters. It breaks my heart as he was the nicest boy bright, articulate and kind and now is almost unrecognisable. (
Thank you for your response its given me even more to think about in regards to verse (43), that may or may not be about polygamy, depending on the interpretation of the posters.
On this one some of us are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I personally, still think verse (43) is about polygamy.
My original view was that the Quran had stopped polygamy. However, thinking about all the interpretations and discussions we have had and taking into account the historical realities of the times. I am considering a slightly different take. I think it more likely that the Quran recognises the reality of polygamy but is also discouraging of it.
Historically, polygamy was pretty much a fact of life for certain segments of society. It certainly existed pre-islamically and was the norm for many cultures. I feel that the Quran recognises this fact, but the question is how does the Quran see polygamy?
Verse (431) appears to be within the context of widowed women and dependent children and protecting their financial interests and is taking measures to protect them by limiting the marriages "to just the one".
The next mention is in the verse quoted (4129) "Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally. But do not incline (to one) exclusively and leave (the other) suspended (as it were). Yet if you do the right thing and are just, God is verily forgiving and kind".
Its in relation to marital discord and eventual breakdown culminating in divorce. 'Howsoever you may try you will never be able to treat your wives equally' again to me it seems to be a warning and a suggestion that polygamous marriages result in inequity and unkindness so may lead to unjust behaviour.
The fact that words such as equitable, equity, equally, just, never and iniquitous are used suggests (to me) that the Quran---does not favour it. These are all fairly loaded terms, warnings, and a general reading of the Quran reveals that God does not like the unjust, unkind or those who profiteer from the misfortunes of others.
This again is my opinion but on certain pre-existing situations (e.g slavery,polygamy) the Quran takes an interesting approach. It recognises all these situations exist but does not condone them. The language reveals clues and hints that suggest (to me) a lack of support for both situations. To me the verses imply--if you are going to take this step, know that you will be held to account, in which case think again very carefully and proceed with caution.
Living in the West you cannot have a polygamous marriage, its against the law. That does not stop certain people from their supposed God given right!
Then we end up running counter to the Quranic injunctions of being honest, upright and just, as all sorts of sordid lies and excuses are made to cover up the presence of a second spouse or more--this is not decent behaviour by a long shot. From a practical point of view how can you have a legal will for all these wives and children? What happens if the man is abusive, deserts them or dies? What if one of the wives wants out? What if the first wife never wanted to be in a polygamous relationship? If so can she easily access divorce? Get alimony and access to kids if any?
I personally know two families that went down this route, with utterly disastrous results. The blogosphere is full of horrible experiences that women have undergone--it makes me livid.
This is unjust, its just wrong. In short I am following my conscience and my personal reading that polygamy is recognised but is discouraged in the Quran and really we as muslims need to work towards some sort of legal framework to deal with this issue in a way that to quote the Quran is just, equitable and compassionate.
Look forward to your take on this )
Peace.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing in 4.129 that says that it is talking about poligamy. It is talking about differences between the couple and divorce. The aya betfore it is about that, the one after as well, and there is nothing, but nothing in the 129 that speaks of several wives. Translations that say so are putting from from their own. It is nto in the original. The translation of Yusuf Ali, which is the one I usually use, because I have it and though it is not altogether faithful, is more faithful than others. Here is what it says
4.128. If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
4.129. Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
4.130. But if they disagree (and must part), Allah will provide abundance for all from His all-reaching bounty for Allah is He that careth for all and is Wise.
The 4.3 to sustain poligamy was wacky and therefore a prop was sought somewhere else, and it was found in 4.129.
But the thing is that 4.129 just as 4.3 does not speak particularly of poligamy. It does not touch the subject. If a suport for poligamy is sought it must be found somewhere else.
Poligamy, either masculine or feminine is not forbidden int he Qur'an, but nowhere it is recommended or in anyway given particular approval. We must take it like that and assume responsibility for what we do and what we legislate that it should be in fulfillment of the Quranic principles. Those principles are clear.
Salaam
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Salaam Huruf,
While your interpretation and reading of the verse is interesting and thought provoking---it simply does not resonate with my current reading and understanding.
Often on many issues I am in broad agreement with much of what you say and appreciate your insight but on this one for now we will have to agree to disagree.
Peace.
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Peace Indelwyn )
God willing, I hope you have another one soon ) Mashallah, you have a big family. A 21 month old? He or she must keep you running! I wish I had it in me to have a large family. I am already feeling so overwhelmed with just one..and she does not even walk yet.
I totally agree with you. haha. If we follow their logic, then really there is no reward for us. It's all about them. I can understand where you are coming from. I also waited until marriage and only wanted to share that type of intimacy with my husband and no other. I think I would also feel suicidal if something like that happened to me. Did this happen to you? I am so glad you came through it okay. Mashallah, you seem to have a wonderful husband now. I am so glad you found someone new who is thoughtful and loves your daughter like his own. You are so blessed.
Thank you for your great posts as well! It's feels so good to have supportive sisters.
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Peace Liha )
Yes, she gives up and then collapses on the carpet. After like 30 seconds, she's right back at it. haha. cute. Now, if only I could find my camera.
I, too have cousin (second cousin) who we lost temporarily to drug use. He's recovered from the actual addiction, but lost much of his youth in the process. His younger brother, though, is very successful and does not have any sort of rebellious streak in him. I've known both since they were babies, and remember picking them up and walking around with them. Really, I don't know what to make of it. I guess the best thing we can do as parents is to keep the doors of communication always open, and watch our children carefully.
You said this, "I think it more likely that the Quran recognizes the reality of polygamy but is also discouraging of it." I absolutely agree with you on this. I don't think it's as much as a right as it is a permission given within a very unlikely context. Though, the context itself may not be unlikely. Rather, it is the thought of a man merely marrying to provide a home and fatherly support to orphaned children that appears unlikely. I have yet to hear of a man who married again for anything other than lust. It's ridiculous how these people completely ignore the Quran, and only see what they want to see. The majority of these men prefer to marry young virgins. Still, I don't think God encourages the idea of marrying more than one, as He clearly warns of the dangers. Also, women aren't compelled to accept this lifestyle even if their husband is considering this particular method of being charitable.
There are so many clues in the Quran in which God guides us away from certain things, and tell us what is better for us. You are correct; slavery and polygamy being two specific things. Though, many a time, people will only do what they want to in the end, and then they will dare to justify their injustices with the Words of God.
Yes, I think most countries in the West would consider these marriages to be form of bigamy. There was an interesting discussion on a sectarian forum the other day. The women are mainly living in the West, and the topic of polygamy came up. The majority of the women claimed that they would never put the "no other wife" stipulation in their marriage contracts. Some men even piped up that it was in fact illegal to do so. I thought to myself, "The reason why you find the stipulation to be stupid, is because you live in Western countries where secular law protects your marriage rights, but what about your brothers and sisters who do not have the same rights? Also, what if polygamy was legalized in the West?" I couldn't believe how much of a one-track mind these women have. They were not able to think outside of the box. I'm not saying that I am in any way superior in my thinking, but wouldn't they feel the right to protect themselves given what they know goes on in their home countries?
I've also read blogs with those heart wrenching polygamy stories. What's even more sad is that these women continue to try and convince themselves that their jealousies, depression, sense of betrayal is all "Shaitan", and they must work on themselves. I am not sure whether I should feel sorry for them or feel angry. It's frustrating.
I totally agree with you in that we need some sort of legal framework that will redefine polygamy in light of the Quran, and we must create some sort of legislation that protects the rights and interests of all married women and their families.
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If masculine poligamy is all about protecting the orphans, which is what you attribute to the Qur'an, then what about when there are no orphans, because simply there are not enough men to go around not even to leave behind any orphans, as it was the case I mentionned after the war of the Triple Alliance against Paraguay? According to you they would have been unable to have poligamy. Which obviously they did have, with church marriages or without them.
Salaam
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Salam all
I'm completely agree with Huruf, when he says that the Qur'an neither prohibits polygamy nor endorses t - may be, there may be situations where polygamy can be a solution of certain problems (for example, the orphan issue)
Another example would be a marriage, in which one part has no sexual desire or physical reasons (paralysis, disease) sustained no physical connection. Instead to pick its satisfaction elsewhere through prostitutes or girlfriends or child abuse (I know whereof I speak) , it would be in this case, a good solution for all parties to married a second wife...i see a great wisdom from Allah in this verses ...
Salam peace -
Peace All,
The Koran doesn't prohibit or permit circumcision. So, we can make our own choice. Does the Koran permit or prohibit polygamy? Is God really going to leave a decision such as this to us , which has such far-reaching consequences - most of which are unhappiness?
How does polygamy look from the male viewpoint and from the female viewpoint?
Many people agree that the Koran doesn't actually speak of polygamy. So, why are we talking about polygamy? Is it even on the table? We are told to use our intelligence. We are told to be kind. We are told to be peaceful. We are told God has a mate for us all, our tilths. We are told men and women are equal. We are told not to commit adultery etc., etc., yet we think God is giving us the choice of polygamy? I wonder who it is benefitting by thinking like this? Certainly not the women, certainly not the children. Oh yes, the men!
Islam should be setting an example to the world, holding up God's exemplary laws. It is time people actually studied the Koran consistently to find the real answers. As chapter 96 tells us, 'read in the name of the Lord'.
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After the Triple Alliance war against Paraguay, there were 28 women to every male, and immediately after the war those males were minor or very old men. The country would never have recovered the population had it insisted in monogamy. So the law proclaimed free llove as complete recognized and legal. Women could be with any men they cared for and men, those there were could do the same with any women.
Of course all homes had women as heads, which seems to be the case even today when there are enough men to go around and there is monogamous marriage. People find their own solutions.
The trick of putting a limit of four to the number of wives would not have done either. 24 women out of every 28 without a husband, without family without descendants... I find that apalling.
Agreed, those circumstances are not common, but we never know.
The thing is that the Qur'an gives ground rules, principles on which to base any ruling in the society. But the actual shape of those is left to people. Believers and people are told to strive, to reflect, to think out, to use reason... and above all to be equitable and not transgress the limits.
Nowehere it is said that a man has the right to have more than one woman. It may be a possibility for particular circumstances, but it is certainly NOT A RIGHT granted by the Qur'an just like that. Because in that case it is also the right of a woman to have more than one man.
Following that path of reasoning the men should also have the right to the mamalakat aymanuhum, and have as many concubines ans they wished. The Qur'an has been used to uphold that.
If there is no lack of men in society, poligamy, masculine and femine might be contemplated for cases like the one explained by Mirjamnur, it it considers it fit. But there is no reason to maladjust demography just for the sake of a presumed right of men to whatever.
In fact in some muslim countries, the male population in marriageable age overnumbers the female population noticeably. If some of them marry more than one... let them fence it out. They want poligamy, stick with poligamy and remain single.
Salaam
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Peace Huruf,
I agree with you. The Koran says men and women are equal. Therefore, if men are allowed multi-wives, then women too are allowed multi-husbands. Seen from this angle, is it really how we want to live?
If there are not enough women/men, then perhaps we should go abroad to find a wife/husband, instead of sharing.
Dawn.
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Salam
the best we sit at home ALONE and wait ALONE until we died... ;D the problem is solved voodooi think Monogamy is like Monotheism in the fitra of human- we have more as enough to do with one wife/husband / family (in normal circumstances) that we will not look to make us more problems, isn't so? (and yes, i know, there are men they don't like to follow this fitra-) but when we read the Quran, what we should do in our life - if i want really to follow the Quran then so or so i don't have time to married so many - all this wasted time and
then second point then we become like animals- only here to dedicate ourselves to the reproduction? drink, eat sleep - and as human work, argue, ...??
Salam giveup -
Yes, it is important to see that even if in the Qur'an, Muhammad is known to have several wives, still the Qur'an too is careful to show that his circumstance is not to be equated with anybody else's. And in the whole of Qur'an monogamy appears as the standard marriage, which again, would be pointing to the fact that even if poligamy, maculine or feminine is not forbiden, because there may be situations of force majeure, it is not to be the general rule.
There could be dispensations to be accorded judicially. or in general situations like the one described for Paraguay, make it absolutely free.
But under no circumstance it is to be regarded as a right of men. Nowhere in the Qur'an is given such a hint. The rights of men are not of higher value than the rights of women. If men do insist upon such thing as a right, then women could do also insist on the same as a right.
If it is anybody's right it is the collectivity right to protect its society, is reproduction, or its welfare. nowhere in the Qur'an is affirmed such a men's right.
Salaam
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Greetings all,
After contemplating the verse and trying to understand the context of ayat, i personally believe that the issue of polygamy/polygyny is succinctly addresses in al Qur'an 2221.
And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. And do not marry polytheistic men until they believe. And a believing slave is better than a polytheist, even though he might please you. Those invite to the Fire, but Allah invites to Paradise and to forgiveness, by His permission. And He makes clear His verses to the people that perhaps they may remember.
although almushrikati/almushrikeena literally means someone who set up partners, but in the said verse the context is about marriage and has nothing to do with with the common understanding of setting up partner with god.
in essence, Q2221 is telling us (both male/female) not to marry those who already has a partner, even if she/he allures you as this call you unto the 'fire'. Perhaps those who have personally experienced polygamous life can enlighten and share with us the true meaning of 'fire'
Peace
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Peace.
But under no circumstance it is to be regarded as a right of men. Nowhere in the Qur'an is given such a hint. The rights of men are not of higher value than the rights of women.
Agreed.
Regardless of what we think of polygamy and the meaning we derive from it upon reflection, it's important to keep in mind that we all have an equal right to feel happy and secure within our marriages without threat of coercion.
Dawn, the only thing that can bring peace to mind in relation to this topic, is that we need proper legislation that protects the rights of all. Of course, we as a community here on Free Minds, have yet to establish any sort of physical state or country. As a result, these are thoughts to bear in mind when legislation is created.
From my perspective, monogamy is the functional or the 'smart' method; it is affordable, less drama, and the only way in which I wish to be married in. I think many women feel similarly, though there are your exceptions. I think the main point here is that we are never compelled to except this lifestyle against our will. We are equal in the sight of God, and nobody's rights supersede the rights of another.
One thing I would advise all women to do is to get themselves educated, acquire work experience, and grab leadership positions whenever possible. We cannot be compelled into any of this nonsense if we empower ourselves and refuse to become victims. This is just my opinion.
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Peace Release,
I agree with you mainly. However, I travel frequently to Saudi Arabia and the women there, no matter how much they empower themselves with education are stuck in the most dire conditions emotionally and socially. As the Saudi men tend to take several wives as a matter of course, many Saudi women are exercising one of their few rights to wait until they are thirty years old, then they no longer have to marry a Saudi. They can then marry any other Arab, whose tendency to polygamy is not as high.
Dawn.
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Peace All,
I would have thought 3020 is a massive indication from God that he intended one man, one woman
"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with EACH OTHER, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think."
Dawn
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Peace Dawn,
Thanks for the insight on Saudi Arabia. Why must women wait until they are thirty, what is the wisdom behind this law?
I think Saudi men get away with this because Saudi law and society allow them to without any repercussions. Women may have access to education but it's difficult for them to acquire work with equal opportunity and salary. Women are rarely ever seen in leadership roles because traditional Sunni Islam frowns upon this. It's a place where freedom of speech is limited, and there is severe punishment given for even protesting or petitioning against the clergy and/or monarch. Women's rights groups (as well as other civil rights groups) are heavily monitored and function within strict parameters.
Though, I would think a state based on both secular and quranic values would be different. Saudi Arabia isn't the ideal example of this. Far from it, I think. Women may be educated in Saudi Arabia, but they are not empowered. They are very limited in what they can actually do. They may be doctors, lawyers, teachers, and etc..but when it comes to government and legislation, they are deemed "deficient" by the traditionalists and do not have a say.
In a Quranic state, I think women would be empowered and have the right to take part in creating legislation. There is nothing in the Quran that blocks women from taking on leadership roles. Women are not deficient mentally or intellectually. The Quranic perspective of women is that of respect and equality. We could easily push for legislation that protected our rights within marriage. From a Quranic perspective, there is nothing that should prevent us from this. A true democracy would allow women to protest and campaign without the fear of fines, jail sentences, and/or any cruel and unusual punishment. Though, I don't think we would need to do any of that in this regard, as it is not in the spirit of the Quran to compel anyone to live a certain lifestyle against their will.
In Turkey, women participate in legislation and the government itself is pushing for more female imams. It's one of the few places in the world where you can find women who serve as religious authority. I am not advocating for more clergy, but I find it very interesting (and encouraging) how women are being respected as "scholars" and learned members of the community.
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Peace All,
I would have thought 3020 is a massive indication from God that he intended one man, one woman
"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with EACH OTHER, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think."
Dawn
Peace Dawn This verse seems to me to be still ambiguous even if we consider the EACH OTHER, because it can still mean tranquility and contentment with each of your 4 spouses. because of the plural word SPOUSES.
If it was absolutel clear about monagamy it would say "He created A SPOUSE from among yourselves " -
Peace Lena,
I take your point. However, I don't think God would expect tranquility and peace to be fostered when a man has to juggle more than two wives. That basically carves up the time a man has to share with each wife. I'm afraid I cannot see how polygamy could engender peace and tranquility. We are told that there are no contradictions in the Koran. How on earth can a man looking after more than one female be tranquil and peaceful himself. And as for the gems this could breed.....