Blind faith in God or using logic before believing in God?
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I might sum up my view with God being entirely reasonable and completely mystical simultaneously. The submissive idea of God is in harmony with all I can perceive and reason around, but He is also completely, mindbendingly greater than anything I could ever comprehend. How can you ever hope to use reason as an approach the Infinite, Eternal, Absolute?
If irrational people define irrationally, wouldn't that be rational?
You have a good point in my opinion. What is the definition of "god" for you?
And why "belief in" and not "belief"?I define "Irrational" as those which doesn't make sense or those statement which rationally can be deducted as false / pointless. There's a big difference between "I don't know" and "I know it's BS"...
Example
S 10/3 = 3.3333333333333 (up to infinity)
Q In the decimal form result of 10/3 = How many 3s are there?
A Infinite
Reasonable / rational statement with non definitive answer.S 10/3 = -150000 because it's said so in my holy book.
Unreasonable / irrational / false statement with ridiculous argument.S 5 + Y = X
Q If Y is UNKNOWN, what number is X?
A If Y is UNKNOWN then X is UNKNOWN, either Y or X must be KNOWN first..
Reasonable / rational statement which doesn't entirely answer the question.Now second question, belief is an internal perception of things around us..
Belief shall shape our thought, emotionIMHO 'belief in God' is irrelevant. Thus "What Is God" doesn't necessarily need to be answered.
What's important is the belief that 'things around us' shall turn out to be better for us. (Positive Attitude).Belief / opinion by itself doesn't really matter. At the end of the day; it's your deed / act that count.
Do good deeds / acts and be positive.
Salam / Peace
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I define "Irrational" as those which doesn't make sense or those statement which rationally can be deducted as false / pointless. There's a big difference between "I don't know" and "I know it's BS"...
It was actually making fun of the double negative....
And yes, I agree with your differentiation.
Now second question, belief is an internal perception of things around us..
IMHO 'belief in God' is irrelevant. Thus "What Is God" doesn't necessarily need to be answered.
What's important is the belief that 'things around us' shall turn out to be better for us. (Positive Attitude).Belief / opinion by itself doesn't really matter. At the end of the day; it's your deed / act that count.
Do good deeds / acts and be positive.
Salam / Peace
Here I disagree. I need to know why I believe what I believe.
If I come across the concept of a god, I primarily require a definition.
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value. -
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value.Can you please get me some aayaats from where you get this idea? Thanks!
mmKhan
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According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment.
Can you please get me some aayaats from where you get this idea? Thanks!
Sure, if you have no access to a Koran, here are some examples
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them , they will have no faith" (26).
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (215).
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (224).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (285).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (289).
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits " (290).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (29.
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book , and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2114).
"Those to whom We have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2122).
" shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2142).
"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2162).
"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (216.
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2172).
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2175).
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2176).
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2190?93).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith?if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2217?1.
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (225.
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2264).
"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2270).
"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (35).
"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (310).
"Say to the unbelievers ?You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell?an evil resting place!'" (312).
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (319).
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful?he that does this has nothing to hope for from God?except in self-defense" (32.
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (311.
"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3140).
"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3149-51).
"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle ?Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3156).
"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3169).
"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (317.
"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3195?96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (446).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels ?These are better guided than the believers'" (450?51).
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (455?56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (557).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (565).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (567).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (569).
"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say ?We are Christians'" (580?82).
"hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (586).
"hey deny the truth when it is declared to them but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (65).
"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves , sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert ?This is but plain sorcery.' They ask ?Why has no angel been sent down to him ?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (65?.
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (621).
"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say ?This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say ?Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 623?27).
"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (629).
"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (635).
"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (639)
"heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (643?45).
"hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (649).
"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (670).
"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say ?Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (693).
"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6107?12).
"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6121?25).
"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6125).
These are just some examples. There are many more, but you wanted only "some aayaats".
They show that a non-believer who does not believe the credo and dogma of the Koran will suffer - without taking their way-of-life into consideration.
-
Sure, if you have no access to a Koran, here are some examples
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them , they will have no faith" (26).
"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (215).
A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (224).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (285).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (289).
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits " (290).
"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (29.
"The unbelievers among the People of the Book , and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2105).
"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2114).
"Those to whom We have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2122).
" shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2142).
"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2162).
"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (216.
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2172).
"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2175).
"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2176).
"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2190?93).
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith?if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2217?1.
"God does not guide the evil-doers" (225.
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2264).
"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2270).
"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2272).
"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (35).
"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (310).
"Say to the unbelievers ?You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell?an evil resting place!'" (312).
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (319).
"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful?he that does this has nothing to hope for from God?except in self-defense" (32.
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (311.
"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3140).
"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3149-51).
"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle ?Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3156).
"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3169).
"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (317.
"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3195?96).
"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (446).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels ?These are better guided than the believers'" (450?51).
"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (455?56).
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (557).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (565).
"God does not guide the unbelievers" (567).
"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (569).
"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say ?We are Christians'" (580?82).
"hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (586).
"hey deny the truth when it is declared to them but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (65).
"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves , sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert ?This is but plain sorcery.' They ask ?Why has no angel been sent down to him ?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (65?.
"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (621).
"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say ?This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say ?Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 623?27).
"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (629).
"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (635).
"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (639)
"heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (643?45).
"hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (649).
"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (670).
"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say ?Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (693).
"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6107?12).
"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6121?25).
"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6125).
These are just some examples. There are many more, but you wanted only "some aayaats".
They show that a non-believer who does not believe the credo and dogma of the Koran will suffer - without taking their way-of-life into consideration.
Salaam StopS,
How come that you quote so many verses and you still don't see what they say hmm
Anyway, I like to thank you that you only quoted from The Quran.
I will inshaAllah try not to hijack this discussion between you and mmKhan.Salaam,
Bender -
Here I disagree. I need to know why I believe what I believe.
If I come across the concept of a god, I primarily require a definition.
- I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
According to the Koran, a good person without the correct belief can go to hell and eternal punishment. A bad person without any value to humanity can be rewarded with an afterlife in a heaven by the proper belief. Blind faith gets rewarded.
Good deeds are ok - but faith is better.
Bad deeds are not necessarily punished because faith has a higher value.-
I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
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I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
-
What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. -
My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
-
I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
So yeah, I can understand your objection. But I don't conclude that it is the quran that is false... rather it would IMO be our understanding which is severely corrupt, silly and illogical. I think the real message of the quran is deeply buried under lots of mental nonsense, blindness and baggage that we impose on it. The quran cannot be understood thru language only. It requires something more. In fact, it seems that the more religious one gets, the farther away from Allah on also gets.
Just my opinion.Peace
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I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
-
I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
-
I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
-
What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. -
My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
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I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
So yeah, I can understand your objection. But I don't conclude that it is the quran that is false... rather it would IMO be our understanding which is severely corrupt, silly and illogical. I think the real message of the quran is deeply buried under lots of mental nonsense, blindness and baggage that we impose on it. The quran cannot be understood thru language only. It requires something more. In fact, it seems that the more religious one gets, the farther away from Allah on also gets.
Just my opinion.Peace
Peace Zulf,
I like a lot of what you said, especially the bolded above. If we have not yet figured out that religion and spirituality are two separate devices, then we still have a long way to go. I know of one denomination of Christianity in which if you call them "religious" they are offended. I am starting appreciate their stance on that word.
And yes...I have said it in other posts...we put "limits" on God with our interpretations and thinking. Who are we to say what He will and will not forgive, do, or allow just because that is the way we understand it?
Peace,
Amina
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- I agree. I also think that we need to know why we believe what we believe.
- I think that what you are discussing, and also having a problem with, is the common, typical approach to religion and faith.
- I think people have the approach they have towards religion, because they lack experience and a deeper understanding of what they are talking (when they talk about faith n religion). This is why weird and illogical translations come by.
- What you say about the quran above, I only agree with in that it is how people understand and translate it. The words are not definite, but understood and therefore translated according to the depth of the translators understanding and experience. Even if the translator is an ace in language, he might be crappy in spiritual understanding, and therefore his translation would necessarily reflect this to different extents.
So, I think it is a wrong or weak understanding of the quran that you are reporting. I agree with you that it doesn't make so much sense, they way you understand the quran. Personally I think the quran should not be understood this way, even though most people seem to render it in this fashion. I disagree that it is the quran itself that is wrong. - My idea is that it a correct belief has nothing to do with blind faith at all, and all to do with seeing and experiencing reality. This is a gradual process, something that can deepen. No-one sits with all the right answers.
- I also think that we should not rush to conclude exactly what jannat and jahanam are, and what 'correct belief' and 'good' and 'value' are. People have already rushed.. and the understanding is in front of us... making not so much sense. I'm certain that a key thing in this is our understanding of what God/Allah/xyz is and is not. This is usually, IMO, where things go wrong, and other things follow on the wrong track. Isn't this also what Allah won't "forgive"? Shirk. We end up with personified, emotional images of the Creator, as if It is anything like we can figure out. This is why it is written in the quran that we should not associate anything with Allah. It doesn't only mean that we should not keep partners alongside with Allah, but we should not think of Allah as something of the creation. Actually, by just keeping partners with Allah means that we have no clue what Allah is. It's not about jealousy and fairness or so. Keeping partners means we bring Allah down into creation, and hence showing that we totally and utterly have misunderstood the entire concept of Allah. We make images of Allah that lead us astray. We create a fairy land with characters... and confusion and misery is the result of this. We should not try to understand what Allah is... but rather what Allah is not... that will take us closer. If we cannot grasp or comprehend Allah, then why do we try to. Why do we connect so many attributes to It that only befit people and creation? We should stop figuring out Allah, 'cause we cannot, and we should start experiencing it instead. We cannot figure out with the mind, but we can experience. We should stop interpreting the quran in the terminology and images of the biblical fairy tales. Those stories may have truth in them.. but they are at best concealed as similes and parables that people long ago have lost the understanding of. People have started taking them literally.
What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.Correct me if I'm wrong.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.Now please explain the advantage of faith.
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What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?
Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.
Now please explain the advantage of faith.
Excellent post,
Peace StopS,
You could start by capitalizing God to show reverence and respect.
Your error is you set the criterion for what is acceptable to you from God.All Green are your quotes
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an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
Here you have replaced God's omnipotence with your own. -
an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
According to Quran God says he has produced such evidence. -
an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
I do not understand this sentence.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Peace O0
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What I see and what I understand is that you are saying the words are there to be understood and not scrutinized.
Also, the interpretation of the words as they are intended will eventually lead to an intended understanding, which is not always appreciated.Correct me if I'm wrong.
Peace StopS,
Just some replies and random remarks from me
i. Understanding comes with time, experience, patience, open-mindedness, and sincere desire of it.ii. Words should be scrutinized. The opposite would be blind faith, which I think is madness.
iii. If person A can see reality X, while person B cannot, then it doesn't mean person A has a blind faith in X, even though person B cannot see reality X and hence likes to call it blind faith. Much arguments in such a situation is pretty futile though, since one side will not convince the other, regardless of the reality.
iv. What is appreciated, or rather felt as pleasant, depends on one's mind, up-bringing, past experiences, beliefs. The less wisdom and freedom of mind one has, the more rigid one's like's and dislike's would be. The wiser, more open, and free of the tyranny of one's mind you get, the less forced you will be to emotionally react to things in a compulsive way. If you're wise/open/free, you'll see all good points in things that "less wise" people might not be able to.
My principle in understanding a super-natural being we commonly call god is this
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
v. In my understanding, the issue arises from the notion that God (or whatever you call it) is super-natural. This make it into something separate, un-natural and out of the ordinary. It actually makes it something outside reality. The word also shows that it is defined as something that the tools of natural science cannot detect, and hence silly. God is called super-natural for the simple reason that those who call it that simply cannot feel or experience God (or at least hasn't yet). They try, like good scientists, to understand God with their minds, and fail miserably. This is also how Religions come up... through people who have no idea what God is like. They create an image (in place of an experience), mostly based on fear, and then you have a religion of blind faith followers. People who search for God usually look in the wrong place. They look outside. They go to priests, mullahs, rabbis, etc. They should instead start within with sincerity.
vi. This might sound paradoxical, but demanding evidence is the same as wanting to submit to blind faith. Why? Well, it is the desire to be presented evidence on a silver plate BEFORE you decide to believe, instead of reaching certainty, and and thereby faith, all by yourself. To be fed evidence is to not wanting to do the work of discovery oneself. This is not limited to faith in God, but anything that takes some work before you gain certainty or knowledge about it.
vii. It's anyway not about evidence. It's about being open to let it in. The water is in the pipes all along, but unless you open the tap, it wont come to you.
viii. The issue again is the concept of a god that is outside us, super-natural, something else, separate. This sort of god will never be found except in one's imagination, and fairy tales. Just go and look into the religions of this world. They contain great truths, but they are mostly obscured with crazy fairy tales. Why does it seem like religions create misery, war and shit. Well, because 1) they are faaaar from understanding God (if God is good, then following God will produce goodness), and 2) people are controlled by their egos and emotions.
ix. If you really want to see the deeper reality, then quit dwelling on the things you don't believe in. Quite dwelling on the things that don't make sense. Just leave it. If you want to believe in God, then quite collecting evidence for the non-existence of god. If you believe that god doesn't exist, then just relax in that and go on with other matters of the world that you enjoy. Is there some uncertainty or insecurity? If others believe in the Easter Bunny, they will continue believe in it for as long as they decide to.
If you have reached a conclusion that God cannot be a cruel character that is unfair and what not. Congratulations!! I agree! But once that conclusion is reached, why keep come back to it? It is now established. Move on! Don't stop here. And IF you are STILL deep down, somewhere, interested in a greater meaning, then start looking for it where you haven't looked before, and in ways you haven't looked before. It is stupid to going round and round in a circle proving a thing over and over to oneself. Why would one do that? If God cannot reasonably be like that religions teach, then leave it and look elsewhere! Religions don't have monopoly on the truth, although they claim so. IF you have the desire to know and experience the truth, just ask inside yourself for it, and let the desire and intention of wanting it vibrate inside you. Fill your mind with it. Stop thinking and start feeling. And do give it TIME. You must give it time!! The mind is a just a tool. It's like a machine. It's not intelligent. It is just a very complex machine that can sort, filter, categorize, combine, extrapolate, compute that data that it is stored in its huge database, conscious and subconscious memory. But it is not really intelligent. It's a computer. If you relax and start feeling also instead of only thinking, then you will start realizing and seeing new things... things that the mind would not be able to dig out or add up.
Don't demand that others serve you the truth. That would be blind faith. I cannot happen. Open up to it and it will flow in all by itself. You must do the work yourself. It takes time to open up. It's a process that will never finish, but it can start here an now with a decision. It starts with you. Intention, desire and a decision. Forget all the fear propaganda by the blind religious fear mongers. Just leave them and forget them. Don't argue with them even. If you don't believe them, then don't pay attention to them, not even in you mind. Why focus on something you don't believe in?? Isn't that as mad as blind faith?So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
The concept of a devil, originally created as a worshipping angel turned evil is beyond me. Why not engage in positive encouragement instead of terror and fear?x. I can fully understand and relate to your apprehensions. But don't dwell on it too much. Look somewhere else!
Contrast this with a profound understanding of nature.
No evil, just natural phenomena.
No punishment, just a fulfilled life without artificial constraints.
No faith or even blind faith, just experience.Now please explain the advantage of faith.
xi. Nature is just a material environment we live in, a wonderful one. Imagine an understanding that goes beyond that! How liberating!
xii. Experience gives faith. It's the same thing. But if the word 'faith' carries negative connotations for you, then 'experience' is better. Blind faith is however undoubtedly madness.
xiii. Are you asking about the advantage of faith (as in a doubtful belief in a super-natural god) or about the advantage of experience? They're quite different. I'm only interested in experience. I prefer not to invest time in blind faith or other things that are not able to vastly improve your life.
Sorry for the lengthy text, but I enjoyed writing it laugh
Peace! -
Excellent post,
Peace StopS,
You could start by capitalizing God to show reverence and respect.
Thanks. God is a description or a function, a creator, not a name. It is not respect that makes a person capitalise a word, or is it? And I am sorry, I can't revere something I have no evidence for. This is in no way out of disrespect to you or any other human.
Your error is you set the criterion for what is acceptable to you from God.
Absolutely correct! This is MY personal expectation. But why is that an error? I have MY expectations for almost everything and I think I am entitled to that.
All Green are your quotes
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
Here you have replaced God's omnipotence with your own.
Not at all. I know what would be considered proof or evidence. That's all.
- an almighty god would be able to produce this evidence.
According to Quran God says he has produced such evidence.
Hahaha, I like that! Yes, indeed, that's what makes you a believer and me a non-believer.
- an all-merciful god would allow for errors and see the own mistakes.
I do not understand this sentence.
I am a mere mortal, a human. I make mistakes. An all-merciful being would not punish me for my making mistakes. Also, I would not be punished for misunderstanding confusing and erroneous descriptions.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Yes, precisely, this is valid for human legal judgment, not for divine mercy.
- an omniscient god would know what I require in the form of evidence to make me a believer.
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Peace Stop S
Thanks. God is a description or a function, a creator, not a name. It is not respect that makes a person capitalise a word, or is it? And I am sorry, I can't revere something I have no evidence for. This is in no way out of disrespect to you or any other human.
That's fine, I should not impose my grammatical habits, I apologize
I am a mere mortal, a human. I make mistakes. An all-merciful being would not punish me for my making mistakes. Also, I would not be punished for misunderstanding confusing and erroneous descriptions.
Maybe you misunderstand the all-merciful being.
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life.
one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime
note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems.
Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter.Yes, precisely, this is valid for human legal judgment, not for divine mercy.
Not all judgement is legal, some punishments are carried out by individuals against
their fellows citizens. But as you know, all experience cannot be positive.
(ying & yang)Peace O0
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Peace StopS,
Just some replies and random remarks from me
Wow! A lot of material. Let me share my thoughts with you.
i. Understanding comes
ii. Words should be scrutinized.
iii. If person A can see reality X,
iv. What is appreciated, or rather felt as pleasantIt seems that this is applying the human mind. I would expect much more from a god. I definitely apply much higher standards to the attributes normally associated with a god, much higher than with a human. So I would require each and every word to be the perfect word to convey a meaning without ambiguity or the need for interpretation to every individual. That's just me and my standards.
v. In my understanding, the issue arises from the notion that God (or whatever you call it) is super-natural. This make it into something separate, un-natural and out of the ordinary. It actually makes it something outside reality.
Well, this seems to be a double edged sword. I understand the desire of separating a creator from the creation - but that does not work if that creator/god interacts with the reality of humans on a daily basis.
I agree totally with your evaluation regarding science and the super-natural.
vi. This might sound paradoxical, but demanding evidence is the same as wanting to submit to blind faith.
Here I disagree. Humans are created in order to worship. How can I, if I don't really and without the trace of a doubt know whom or what, how or when and why?
If I am rewarded or punished for my actions, I maintain I should know for certain why I am punished, by whom and in what way. Beforehand.
vii. It's anyway not about evidence. It's about being open to let it in. The water is in the pipes all along, but unless you open the tap, it wont come to you.
What if I don't know that it is water coming out of that pipe, but acid? Sorry, no, I need to know what I am doing before I do it.
I can't just drive a car on the highway without knowing what will happen if I make a mistake. Having faith in my abilities can prove a costly mistake.viii. The issue again is the concept of a god that is outside us, super-natural, something else, separate.
Again, I think you are using human argumentation to create a point which makes sense to you. Like I said if a god wants something from me that he should be willing and able to convey the message.
ix. If you really want to see the deeper reality, then quit dwelling on the things you don't believe in.
Hahaha, there is reality and reality. You can't have a deeper reality than reality.
OK, here you are hitting on something, I think. You first believe and then the belief makes sense. Because you believe. That seems to be the standard approach.
I have studied the various old arguments for the existence of a god and have found that they were made to further deepen the belief of believers, not to entice someone into belief.
But if I leave god out of the picture, should I trust my own instincts and research? I'm a human. What if I have made a mistake?
I double check my work. Why not my belief?Also, religions are constantly getting into my life, telling me that I am a fool for not believing without evidence. They tell me that my expectations of a god are unrealistic, too strict and ignorant. Why can't I expect what I want?
Why should I go deeper if the shallow inspection does not yield the expected results? If I can't breathe in 2m under water, why should I be able to breathe at a depth of 20m? I can't just ignore reality, rational thinking, scepticism and reason to simply say that it is easier to live in heavenly bliss - and ignorance. I need to know that what I believe is justified and the truth.
x. I can fully understand and relate to your apprehensions.
Reading what you wrote I somehow doubt it. I can see you gave it thought and are trying to get your head around it, but is it really possible to understand another person's emotional motives?
xi. Nature is just a material environment we live in, a wonderful one. Imagine an understanding that goes beyond that! How liberating!
How can anyone imagine that? Why liberating?
xii. Experience gives faith. It's the same thing. But if the word 'faith' carries negative connotations for you, then 'experience' is better. Blind faith is however undoubtedly madness.
Experience is the opposite of faith.
xiii. Are you asking about the advantage of faith (as in a doubtful belief in a super-natural god) or about the advantage of experience? They're quite different. I'm only interested in experience. I prefer not to invest time in blind faith or other things that are not able to vastly improve your life.
Now you are saying they are different, when earlier you said they are the same??? What is the difference between "faith" and "blind faith"?
Sorry for the lengthy text, but I enjoyed writing it
I enjoy reading something where it is obvious that person has put some thought into it.
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Peace Stop S
That's fine, I should not impose my grammatical habits, I apologize
No, not at all, making suggestions is always welcome. It makes me think why I do what I do.
Maybe you misunderstand the all-merciful being.
Maybe I am - but then whose fault is that?
So I have a problem understanding the entire concept of punishment for anyone and the highly severe punishment at that in a truly sadistic hell for an incredibly long time. I see it as totally superfluous.
Unhappiness, misery and oppression can last a long time in this life. one can be punished for extended periods of time in this lifetime note the sadistic brutally in many prison systems. Enduring punishments are not out of context for the hereafter. Not all judgement is legal, some punishments are carried out by individuals against their fellows citizens. But as you know, all experience cannot be positive.
(ying & yang)Peace O0
In a human legal system, there is an element of appropriate punishment.
According to religions, a good man can get punished for eternity and a bad man can get rewarded for eternity. How is that possible if humans are created by a perfect being which is also all-merciful? And omniscient. It just does not add up. -
Peace Stop S,
The journey is yours my friend, I hope you get the answers you seek.
We have all heard that no two snowflakes are alike. Each snowflake takes the perfect form for the maximum efficiency and effectiveness for its journey. And while the universal force of gravity gives them a shared destination, the expansive space in the air gives each snowflake the opportunity to take their own path. They are on the same journey, but each takes a different path.
Along this gravity-driven journey, some snowflakes collide and damage each other, some collide and join together, some are influenced by wind... there are so many transitions and changes that take place along the journey of the snowflake. But, no matter what the transition, the snowflake always finds itself perfectly shaped for its journey.
I find parallels in nature to be a beautiful reflection of grand orchestration. One of these parallels is of snowflakes and us. We, too, are all headed in the same direction. We are being driven by a universal force to the same destination. We are all individuals taking different journeys and along our journey, we sometimes bump into each other, we cross paths, we become altered... we take different physical forms. But at all times we too are 100% perfectly imperfect. At every given moment we are absolutely perfect for what is required for our journey. I?m not perfect for your journey and you?re not perfect for my journey, but I?m perfect for my journey and you?re perfect for your journey. We?re heading to the same place, we?re taking different routes, but we?re both exactly perfect the way we are.
Steve Maraboli, Life, the Truth, and Being FreePeace O0
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Peace Stop S,
The journey is yours my friend, I hope you get the answers you seek.
We have all heard that no two snowflakes are alike. Each snowflake takes the perfect form for the maximum efficiency and effectiveness for its journey. And while the universal force of gravity gives them a shared destination, the expansive space in the air gives each snowflake the opportunity to take their own path. They are on the same journey, but each takes a different path.
Along this gravity-driven journey, some snowflakes collide and damage each other, some collide and join together, some are influenced by wind... there are so many transitions and changes that take place along the journey of the snowflake. But, no matter what the transition, the snowflake always finds itself perfectly shaped for its journey.
I find parallels in nature to be a beautiful reflection of grand orchestration. One of these parallels is of snowflakes and us. We, too, are all headed in the same direction. We are being driven by a universal force to the same destination. We are all individuals taking different journeys and along our journey, we sometimes bump into each other, we cross paths, we become altered... we take different physical forms. But at all times we too are 100% perfectly imperfect. At every given moment we are absolutely perfect for what is required for our journey. I?m not perfect for your journey and you?re not perfect for my journey, but I?m perfect for my journey and you?re perfect for your journey. We?re heading to the same place, we?re taking different routes, but we?re both exactly perfect the way we are.
Steve Maraboli, Life, the Truth, and Being FreePeace O0
Spoken like a true philosopher. Good quote!
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Thank your for taking time, and your detailed reply. I hope I shall not disappoint you too much when I now will only respond but briefly to your post. We shall hopefully exchange ideas again at a later time here on the forum.
x. I can fully understand and relate to your apprehensions.
Reading what you wrote I somehow doubt it. I can see you gave it thought and are trying to get your head around it, but is it really possible to understand another person's emotional motives?
True as you hint at. One cannot understand another person's emotional motives.
xii. Experience gives faith. It's the same thing. But if the word 'faith' carries negative connotations for you, then 'experience' is better. Blind faith is however undoubtedly madness.
Experience is the opposite of faith.
Now you are saying they are different, when earlier you said they are the same??? What is the difference between "faith" and "blind faith"?
It's just a use of words. I guess you equate 'faith' and 'blind faith', and in that case, using your definition of 'faith', then I am too against having faith... because it is blind. Sometimes people make 'faith' mean 'trust', and then the word gets another meaning. Also, 'faith' can mean 'certainty' or 'to know for sure through experience'. I guess we just have to be sure what meaning we give the word faith... we should know for our own sake and for other's sake when communicating. So, I'm all for experience, but not faith (the blind one).
Peace, and kind regards!