Adultery
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Peace Dawn,
Thanks for the insight on Saudi Arabia. Why must women wait until they are thirty, what is the wisdom behind this law?
I think Saudi men get away with this because Saudi law and society allow them to without any repercussions. Women may have access to education but it's difficult for them to acquire work with equal opportunity and salary. Women are rarely ever seen in leadership roles because traditional Sunni Islam frowns upon this. It's a place where freedom of speech is limited, and there is severe punishment given for even protesting or petitioning against the clergy and/or monarch. Women's rights groups (as well as other civil rights groups) are heavily monitored and function within strict parameters.
Though, I would think a state based on both secular and quranic values would be different. Saudi Arabia isn't the ideal example of this. Far from it, I think. Women may be educated in Saudi Arabia, but they are not empowered. They are very limited in what they can actually do. They may be doctors, lawyers, teachers, and etc..but when it comes to government and legislation, they are deemed "deficient" by the traditionalists and do not have a say.
In a Quranic state, I think women would be empowered and have the right to take part in creating legislation. There is nothing in the Quran that blocks women from taking on leadership roles. Women are not deficient mentally or intellectually. The Quranic perspective of women is that of respect and equality. We could easily push for legislation that protected our rights within marriage. From a Quranic perspective, there is nothing that should prevent us from this. A true democracy would allow women to protest and campaign without the fear of fines, jail sentences, and/or any cruel and unusual punishment. Though, I don't think we would need to do any of that in this regard, as it is not in the spirit of the Quran to compel anyone to live a certain lifestyle against their will.
In Turkey, women participate in legislation and the government itself is pushing for more female imams. It's one of the few places in the world where you can find women who serve as religious authority. I am not advocating for more clergy, but I find it very interesting (and encouraging) how women are being respected as "scholars" and learned members of the community.
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Peace All,
I would have thought 3020 is a massive indication from God that he intended one man, one woman
"Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with EACH OTHER, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think."
Dawn
Peace Dawn This verse seems to me to be still ambiguous even if we consider the EACH OTHER, because it can still mean tranquility and contentment with each of your 4 spouses. because of the plural word SPOUSES.
If it was absolutel clear about monagamy it would say "He created A SPOUSE from among yourselves " -
Peace Lena,
I take your point. However, I don't think God would expect tranquility and peace to be fostered when a man has to juggle more than two wives. That basically carves up the time a man has to share with each wife. I'm afraid I cannot see how polygamy could engender peace and tranquility. We are told that there are no contradictions in the Koran. How on earth can a man looking after more than one female be tranquil and peaceful himself. And as for the gems this could breed.....
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Salam
Peace Lena,
I take your point. However, I don't think God would expect tranquility and peace to be fostered when a man has to juggle more than two wives. That basically carves up the time a man has to share with each wife. I'm afraid I cannot see how polygamy could engender peace and tranquility. We are told that there are no contradictions in the Koran. How on earth can a man looking after more than one female be tranquil and peaceful himself. And as for the gems this could breed.....
you can not imagine it, but it may be that a polygamic Relation is for others no problem. I have read about examples who the women have wished a second wife to not be alone.
Difficult subject without end ...
Salam giveup -
Peace Mirjamnur,
Once again, I take your point. However, my understanding from the Koran is that marriage was not designed as a vehicle for women to find friends. She can do that without having to share the tranquility and peace of her intimate relationship with her husband.
I don't think the issue is open to debate. I think it is clear. However, those emerging from the mire of sunnism are loathe to accept what the Koran is telling them. The verse concerning the orphans, although time and time again proven to mean 'marry off' as opposed to 'marry' is the verse they all hold onto in order to keep open to them this rotten practice. It's a shame it is the religion called Peace, that encourages the most unpeaceful alliance.
There are enough signs in the Koran to tell us it is not considered halal. As it suits some people's purposes, they choose to ignore the signs.
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Peace Dawn Gorgeous
The verse concerning the orphans, although time and time again proven to mean 'marry off' as opposed to 'marry'Sura 43 .... fil yataamaa fankihoo maa taaba lakum mina-nisaaa'i .......
As I am not a speaker of Arabic I am just wanting to verify which of the above arabic words translates as "marry off" and what would the Arabic be if it was just "marry".
Thanks.
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Salam
4.3 translations http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=3
marry or not marry? http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nkH
word for word http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=3#(431)marry or not marry that is here the question !
Salam -
Peace Mirjamnur Thanks very much for those helpful links. So according to the link regarding translation word for word,
fa-inkihu means "then marry"(437)
fa-inki
then marry RSLT ? prefixed result particle
V ? 2nd person masculine plural imperative verb
PRON ? subject pronounSo what would the Arabic word be if translation was "marry off" (if it referred to marrying the orphans off ) (i.e marry them off) ?
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Peace All,
I have just looked closely at all the translations that Mirjamur posted and they actually do not make any sense AT ALL. how does the first sentence about the orphan girls relate to choosing several wives. Why would you choose up to four wives if you were having difficulty looking after the orphans. Surely marrying up to 4 wives would just add to your already difficult burden of looking after the orphans.
This is my point. This verse is not an allegory. We should be able to work out it's meaning through context and grammar. We cannot act on something that does not make sense. We should use our intelligence.
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Salam dawngorgeous
sorry, with the greatest respect it makes for me a clear sense. The verse is addressed to men, - unmarried or married -who have received due to any circumstances the custody of orphans.(orphans in arabic means only children without mother or both)
These men normally have a job. Even if they have a wife, she can possibly not look at the orphanage also, i.e . replace them the mother. So God gives these men (and their wives) a solution, as HE allows to get married in that case to another woman, (or if more than one orphan, more than one) to ensure that those orphans get a new home and new parents.
That makes complete sense for me.
Salam peace -
The verse is addressed to men, - unmarried or married -who have received due to any circumstances the custody of orphans.(orphans in arabic means only children without mother or both)
Salam peace
No, it is not addressed to men. The addressee is the people. It starts in 4.1 where it says
Ya ayuha an-Naas
The addresse does not change neither in aya 2 nor inaya three. It is addressed to everybody in a community. That is, distributively on each person will fall whatever is in his or her hand to do. Women cannot marry women, therefore to marry the women falls on the men, but women can help in it may be contributing with goods or money or work or contacts, finding may be the suitable partners. It is not just that the men are told "hey take as many as you can" and that is it. It is a community endeavour. Precisely what I find the Qur'an does all along is to encourage people all people to take the lead or at least part in all social effort. It is good, particularly if it is marriage, that the people should feel involved so that the marriage does not fail for want or isolation or support or whatever.
I do feel that the communitary aspect is very strong. The orphans are everybody's charge. Marriage may be important not only economically but also to make the orphans feel more recognized and protected and "integrated" as we would put it today. They may have wealth left by the deceased, but it is not just wealth that matters, but family, social net. Of course, money is also important, but it is not the only thing.
Salaam
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Let me jump in and share my opinion, and I'd like it if you guys also contribute to my thread, 'Polygamy - Time to settle the issue'. This is how I see
Translation by me And if you fear you cannot be fair within/concerning orphans, so marry who have agreed with you from the women, in twos and threes and fours, but if you fear you won't be able to deal equally , then one, or from those who are under your oath.
Basically, the way I take it, is that the society is being ordered to take care of orphans. Orphan in Arabic refers to fatherless. In that era, or at least according to what I've learned, orphans were taken under guardianship, either after the person died, or by the will of the father if he knows that he's dying. If a man gets the responsibility of many orphans, or conditions arise where there is a high rate of orphans, and the guardian is not able to deal with fairness between them, where fairness in Arabic is 'Qist', which just happens to be a word with contradicting meanings, one of them is 'To do justice', while the other is, 'To deny justice', of course, here it'd obviously be the positive one. Anyway, if the guardian fears that he cannot be just with the orphans, where justice - by virtue of it being a vague term - may refer to emotional justice as well as financial justice or something like that, he is to get married with women who have agreed with him, obviously for the purpose of provided justice for the orphans, or anyone among those women who are under his oath who have agreed with him regarding the orphans, in twos, threes and fours, but if he fears he won't be able to deal equally, where the word used for 'Equal' is 'Adl', has meanings along the lines of 'Straighten', 'Adjust properly as to relative magnitude', and mainly, 'To act and deal equitably', then he may marry only one. This act of marrying only one, shows that the guardian is originally, unmarried, and even the multiple marriages are to be done in one instance, by virtue of the usage of the terms 'Twos', 'Threes', and 'Fours', also, the purpose for the marriage is to give justice to orphans, emotionally, and financially (Perhaps these women can be their widow mothers, marrying them would obviously result in taking good care of the orphan's wealth) (By financially doing justice I'm talking about not stealing the orphan's wealth, or not wrongfully consuming it), and not for carnal desires, this is further shown by the phrase, 'Who have agreed with you'.
This is what I have to say, though huruf's interpretation is quite epic too. As for the reason why I chose 'Marry' instead of 'Marry off', I might discuss it tomorrow, right now I gotta go sleep. I hope this post comes as benefit to you guys.
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Peace )
The reason why I see the women as either "widowed", "divorced", or "abandoned" women, is that the orphans them selves need to be tested for maturity before their wealth is given to them. As a result, one cannot marry among the orphans as they have not reached the age of maturity. This is why I understand the "orphans" themselves to be merely children who cannot either fend nor protect their own wealth.
In the case of the women, I think the 'women' would ideally be the mothers of those children the man is looking after. It is not necessary for him to marry these women, but he can if he (and his wife) think it is best for the situation at hand. Back in the day, an unmarried woman and man raising children together would have been looked down upon. It would have probably have been best for them to be married if they were raising children together. However, things have changed since then. All in all, the situation offers a legitimate home to the children, with his or her parents being legitimately married.
I think mirjamnur also has an interesting take on this as well.
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Peace,
That's what I was gonna write today, the reason why I don't believe marrying refers to orphans is because the orphans are still children who still need to reach the mental and physical age that is the time they can get married and get their property thus rendering them no longer as orphans. That's the same reason why I don't opt for 'Marrying off', since these orphans have yet to reach the age of marriage, so how can you marry them off? And how would marrying them off make things easy for them or give them the feeling of 'Justice' being done to them?
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^ Read my post above before reading this (The reason why I do this is that when one ends up giving multiple replies in forums, often only his/her last reply is read, and although he/she made replies prior to that which are also new, they get neglected)
Mirjamnur and I are pretty much saying the same thing, the only difference I see is that he (He right? or she?) says orphans in Arabic are motherless children, or without both mothers and fathers, while I say that orphans in Arabic are fatherless children, or without both mothers and fathers.
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Peace
I agree with you on this Fallen Angel 21098. I think that many of the Quran only thinkers are within the same ballpark in their understanding, though we do have a few outliers, no worries though.
I also find mirjamnur's understanding interesting. I view the orphans to be fatherless as well though. However, I like the orphanage idea she presented.
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Salam huruf
No, it is not addressed to men. The addressee is the people. It starts in 4.1 where it says
o.k you are right ) yeah but
because you say
Women cannot marry women, therefore to marry the women falls on the men, but women can help in it may be contributing with goods or money or work or contacts,then when the Aya speak about married, it is clear men or hmm
peace
Salam Fallen Angel^ Read my post above before reading this (The reason why I do this is that when one ends up giving multiple replies in forums, often only his/her last reply is read, and although he/she made replies prior to that which are also new, they get neglected)
Mirjamnur and I are pretty much saying the same thing, the only difference I see is that he (He right? or she?) says orphans in Arabic are motherless children, or without both mothers and fathers, while I say that orphans in Arabic are fatherless children, or without both mothers and fathers.
hmm mirjam = she or he that is here the question ;D ;D ;D
and you are right i'am falsethey are fatherless children! jedi
Salam