Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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Salmun Alaykum,
I have been reading/going through really old threads regarding issues like Zina, Polygamy, what are Ma Malakat Aymanukum, and Muhsanat etc. For example, threads like
A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
Ma Malakat Emanakum" A Refutation to Brother Ayman;s understandingAmong others, but, I've seen that we haven't really come to a conclusion, and more questions were raised than answered, Pretty much each one of us holds a different opinion regarding these topics, and I've had enough. I will be - ONE BY ONE - opening threads to "Re-discuss" these topics, and try to get us all to come to a single conclusion, which I hope would be the truth. In this thread, I want to discuss Polygamy. First let's gather up all the verses that would help us in our quest to find the truth
And if you fear you won't be able to be fair concerning Al Yatama, so marry/marry off who have agreed with you from the women, twos and threes and fours. So if you fear you will be not be able to deal equally, so one, or who are under your oaths/right hand.
And give the women their dowries/charity/Saduqat unasked/willingly/without demand and without
expecting a return for it/as a free gift, so if they be happy/pleased to you about/of anything from it themselves, so consume it satisfaction ease.And that you combine between the two sisters except for what is past
And they ask your decision/opinion concerning the women, say, God gives you His decision concerning them, and what is recited on you in the book concerning Yatama An-nisa, those (Feminine) you have not given what was prescribed/ordained/written to/for them and/while you desire that you marry them/marry them off, and the oppressed among the children, and that you be maintaining/guarding/standing for Al Yatama with fairness
And by no means will you be able that you act equally between the women even though you greatly desire it, so don't disincline with total disinclination that you leave her like the hanging one. And if you reconcile and be cautious, so verily God is forgiving, merciful
And marry/marry off the single/unmarried/the ones who live in celibacy from yourselves and your servants and maids, if they are poor, provided will they be by God from His bounty
O women of the Prophet
O you, you the Prophet, say to your wives/mates
(To the Prophet) Not permitted for you are the women from now on, and nor is that you substitute/replace with them from a wife
And if you decide to replace/substitute a wife's place wife
Wipes sweat off forehead Ok, I think these are all the verses we end up discussing when talking about polygamy. Now let me make some things clear, first of all, Yatim, or Orphan, in Arabic refers to fatherless, I make this claim after studying classical arabic dictionaries, and even modern arabic-english dictionaries, for example, Google tranlate laugh lol, but seriously, we need to get that cleared up, if someone has valid, strong evidence against it, do tell me. And Yatama is a plural form of Yatim compromising of both males and females. Thus, Al Yatama means The fatherless, or something like that. Secondly, these must be children, that is due to the following verses like which show that once these fatherless reach puberty, their property is given to them by their guardians, showing that they then become independent, and also again, due to classical Arabic dictionaries. Thirdly, one thing I want all of you who have been struggling with and , is that happens to be the only verse in the Quran, where we don't have Al Yatama, but Yatama (With no Al, or The), please do ponder upon this, that we won't ever read this term as 'The orphans/fatherless', and notice further that Yateem in its basic form refers not just to orphans/fatherless, but 'Salmun Alaykum,
I have been reading/going through really old threads regarding issues like Zina, Polygamy, what are Ma Malakat Aymanukum, and Muhsanat etc. For example, threads like
A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
Ma Malakat Emanakum" A Refutation to Brother Ayman;s understandingAmong others, but, I've seen that we haven't really come to a conclusion, and more questions were raised than answered, Pretty much each one of us holds a different opinion regarding these topics, and I've had enough. I will be - ONE BY ONE - opening threads to "Re-discuss" these topics, and try to get us all to come to a single conclusion, which I hope would be the truth. In this thread, I want to discuss Polygamy. First let's gather up all the verses that would help us in our quest to find the truth
And if you fear you won't be able to be fair concerning Al Yatama, so marry/marry off who have agreed with you from the women, twos and threes and fours. So if you fear you will be able to deal equally, so one, or who are under your oaths/right hand.
And give the women their dowries/charity/Saduqat unasked/willingly/without demand and without
expecting a return for it/as a free gift, so if they be happy/pleased to you about/of anything from it themselves, so consume it satisfaction ease.And that you combine between the two sisters except for what is past
And they ask your decision/opinion concerning the women, say, God gives you His decision concerning them, and what is recited on you in the book concerning Yatama An-nisa, those (Feminine) you have not given what was prescribed/ordained/written to/for them and/while you desire that you marry them/marry them off, and the oppressed among the children, and that you be maintaining/guarding/standing for Al Yatama with fairness
And by no means will you be able that you act equally between the women even though you greatly desire it, so don't disincline with total disinclination that you leave her like the hanging one. And if you reconcile and be cautious, so verily God is forgiving, merciful
And marry/marry off the single/unmarried/the ones who live in celibacy from yourselves and your servants and maids, if they are poor, provided will they be by God from His bounty
O women of the Prophet
O you, you the Prophet, say to your wives/mates
(To the Prophet) Not permitted for you are the women from now on, and nor is that you substitute/replace with them from a wife
And if you decide to replace/substitute a wife's place wife
Wipes sweat off forehead Ok, I think these are all the verses we end up discussing when talking about polygamy. Now let me make some things clear, first of all, Yatim, or Orphan, in Arabic refers to fatherless, I make this claim after studying classical arabic dictionaries, and even modern arabic-english dictionaries, for example, Google tranlate laugh lol, but seriously, we need to get that cleared up, if someone has valid, strong evidence against it, do tell me. And Yatama is a plural form of Yatim compromising of both males and females. Thus, Al Yatama means The fatherless, or something like that. Secondly, these must be children, that is due to the following verses like which show that once these fatherless reach puberty, their property is given to them by their guardians, showing that they then become independent, and also again, due to classical Arabic dictionaries. Thirdly, one thing I want all of you who have been struggling with and to know, is that happens to be the only verse in the Quran, where we don't have Al Yatama (In its first instance, the second time it gets mentioned it is Al Yatama, but I'm talking bout the part 'Yatama An Nisa', but Yatama (With no Al, or The), please do ponder upon this, that we won't ever read this term as 'The orphans/fatherless', and notice further that Yateem in its basic form refers not just to orphans/fatherless, but 'Become Isolated', 'Jaded', 'Solitary', heck! Another meaning of this word as per Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary is 'Become a widow', in fact, he gives the translation of Yatama An Nisa as 'Women without husband (Widows/Divorced/Yet to be married)', please focus upon this. Then I want to mention , there was an opinion that it does not allow polygamy, but I disagree, by virtue of it disallowing polygamy with two sisters, and not prohibiting polygamy as a whole, I believe that - or at least at the time that verse was revealed - polygamy is not directly prohibited. There are other things I wanna share too, but I think this has been quite long, so I'll wait. Looking forward for feedback, and please everyone, be honest ) Excuse spelling and grammar mistakes.
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Salaam, Fallen Angel,
You really are an atomic pile. Thank God for your energy a purpose.
This has been a real helpful compilation of Qur'an content that has been dealt with when dealing with poligamy. I commend your efforts and clarity.
In sha' Allah whoever can contribute will follow your lead and do it as clearly and disciplinedly as you have inyour opening message. It is a good and respectful start.
Salaam
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lol, thanks, now all I need are contributors....
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lol, thanks, now all I need are contributors....
Salaam
Qur;an is not restricted by dictionaries, one has to understand the concept and ""Yatama" as I understand are vulnerable person who need support, financially or othewise and in case of underage vurnable/yatame who have no one to care for them you give them their weatlh as they reach age where they are able to look after their affairs.
Simpls -
Peace )
Okay, so you are you saying is that the Quran isn't only referring to "mothers of orphaned children"? You mean to say that the Quran may also be referring to unmarried women, for any reason at all?
I don't understand this because the verses seem to revolve primarily around the welfare of the orphans. Can you break it down a little further for me?
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Peace )
Okay, so you are you saying is that the Quran isn't only referring to "mothers of orphaned children"? You mean to say that the Quran may also be referring to unmarried women, for any reason at all?
I don't understand this because the verses seem to revolve primarily around the welfare of the orphans. Can you break it down a little further for me?
I am always reluctant to impose m;y understanding on others as I feel we all have to study the Qur'an to understand it but no I do not beleive that the Ayat, where polygamy is discussed refers to mothers of orphans. To my understanding it's about those vULnerable women who have no where to go and need care. If one can not give them the care expected from a God fearing person then marry them so they can enjoy a wife's status.
A single woman can be as vulnerable as a widowed or divorced one in a society where women have no rights. The ayat are not asking to take them as mamalkat aymanhu, marriage in mentioned here, for whic concent is a requirement where a woman is of age when she can understand importance of her finance /Mahr as we clearly understand that unage yatama have to wait till they reach age of understanding/concent 46
Salaam -
Peace IMHO,
Do you think that men are allowed to help the vulnerable women through the act of marriage, without first seeking the permission or consent of his initial wife(s). I believe this to be a decision that a family should together, no? What is the initial wife (s) is/are not happy with the prospect of having a co-wife, splitting up the inheritance further, or being in a relationship where sex is not monogamous?
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Ok, lemme make myself a bit more clearer. Yatim in general refers to someone who is vulnerable, its more like a characteristic. When it has an 'Al' or tanween at the end, it becomes a definite and indefinite noun respectively. Except for the first half of , everywhere in the Quran it has been used (Except for one more instance where it comes as 'Yatemain', but there it IS to be used as a general word and is in a dual form so I think there it can't be with an Al in the first place), it comes with an 'Al', in other words, the Quran uses it as a definite noun. Just like it uses the term 'An Nisa' or 'The women', or 'Al Mushrikin', as in 'The polytheists', it uses the term 'Al Yatama' as in, 'The vulnerable/isolated/jaded'. According to context, at all those instances, it only makes sense if the meaning is taken as 'The fatherless children', or 'The orphans'. However, in 's first half, it doesn't use 'Yatama' as a noun, but a descriptive word, like, it describes what follows it, and what follows it is 'An Nisa', this, has been used as a definite noun, as it has 'Al' in the beginning. Like in a phrase has been used 'Azab Al Khizy', where 'Al Khizy' means 'The disgrace' or the concept of disgrace, while 'Azab' means 'Punishment', which means 'Punishment of the disgrace', in other words, 'The disgrace' in the form of torture. Similarly. here it means 'Isolated/Vulnerable of the women', or in other words, women who are vulnerable/jaded, or at least that's what I think Abdul Mannan Omar is trying to say. If it was 'Al Yatama An Nisa', then I'm sure neither he, nor I would have thought about interpreting it this way, since then Yatama would itself be a noun, rendering this interpretation illogical. I've also taken a look at what Mazhar has done at Haqeeqat.org.pk, and even he has translated it as 'Orphan lonely women', which seems like he is also agreeing that 'Orphan lonely' is an adjective that describes a type of women (Though I'd like it if he'd pay us a visit and clear up what he thinks). But this is just an opinion, and I am ready to change it. Another reason why I am inclined to this interpretation, is that this verse suggests that these topics have been discussed in the Quran previously; Yatama An Nisa, oppressed children, and being fair with orphans. If you think about it, oppressed children have been discussed in , being fair with orphans has been discussed in , and isolated women (Divorcees and widows etc.) have been discussed in between verses 200 and 250 of Ch. 2. Furthermore, it says that people weren't willing to give them what was decreed to them, and we can see that in Allah says that if we desire to marry a widow, we have to wait till their 'Prescribed' (Kitab) term is fulfilled, and as per , a year's maintenance of a widow is to be made by the husband before he dies, obviously after he does die, then it is up to the court etc. to do it, if someone would want to marry a widow, he obviously wouldn't want that to happen and keep her in his own home, however, unless she herself doesn't approve the marriage, she is to be given a year's maintenance. Get my point?
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Read my previous reply, reply #9 on the previous page first and then read this
As for 'Mothers of orphans', I myself too don't believe that it exists. In , there is NO indication whatsoever that 'The women' are 'Mothers of orphans', and EVEN if we in taken 'Yatama an Nisa' to mean as 'Orphans of the women', as in, the fatherless children of the women, it is not necessary that that verse is linked to in anyway.
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Peace )
I think I understand what you are saying. If what you say is correct, then I just can't help but feel the injustice in it. Am I allowed to say that? I feel guilty admitting it. As a woman, it makes me feel very insecure that husbands are allowed to marry up to four women that fit the description that you just mentioned. I just can't see the wisdom in that. (
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Peace IMHO,
Do you think that men are allowed to help the vulnerable women through the act of marriage, without first seeking the permission or consent of his initial wife(s). I believe this to be a decision that a family should together, no? What is the initial wife (s) is/are not happy with the prospect of having a co-wife, splitting up the inheritance further, or being in a relationship where sex is not monogamous?
Salaam
As we can read in the Qur'an there is no requirement to seek permission from initial wife, you talk about family above I think these verses are directed towards those who see the whole communty as their family and they must take care of Yateem as Qur'an emphesises rights of Yateem upon us. In those situations the first wife too would reccognise those right if she too see the whole Ummah as her family.
As I understand these ayat are not for familes like your and mine who have husband and wife a house and a car and they live like one unit and the rest are outsiders.
hmm -
Peace,
Well, I think the entire Ummah can be like family, but that does mean that you have to marry everyone in the Ummah. I help my brother out with his finances and help my cousins out with their studies. If they need a place stay for a little while, then they are welcome in my home. These gestures we show toward family do not need to extend themselves on a sexual or romantic level.
I think it's an abuse to compel a woman to accept a polygamous lifestyle. We're all unique individuals, and have our own preferences as to what kind of life we wish to lead. The majority of women I have come across cringe at the idea of sharing their husband. I can't help but admit that it would feel hurtful and degrading. The love and tranquility that we are supposed to possess would not exist if I were ever confronted with such a situation. I think that husbands and wives need to make a mutual decision in this regard. The Quran is not explicit on every matter. God wants us to use our brains in working some things out. Is in the spirit of the Quran to coerce, compel, or guilt a woman into accepting her husband's decision to marry and begin sexual relations with another woman?
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Peace,
Well, I think the entire Ummah can be like family, but that does mean that you have to marry everyone in the Ummah. I help my brother out with his finances and help my cousins out with their studies. If they need a place stay for a little while, then they are welcome in my home. These gestures we show toward family do not need to extend themselves on a sexual or romantic level.
I think it's an abuse to compel a woman to accept a polygamous lifestyle. We're all unique individuals, and have our own preferences as to what kind of life we wish to lead. The majority of women I have come across cringe at the idea of sharing their husband. I can't help but admit that it would feel hurtful and degrading. The love and tranquility that we are supposed to possess would not exist if I were ever confronted with such a situation. I think that husbands and wives need to make a mutual decision in this regard. The Quran is not explicit on every matter. God wants us to use our brains in working some things out. Is in the spirit of the Quran to coerce, compel, or guilt a woman into accepting her husband's decision to marry and begin sexual relations with another woman?
Salaam
What's so great about helping your brother or sister? They are related to you and siblings have a natural inclination to help each other as they shared the same womb. Besides relatives have a right over each other; I was talking about "the outsiders" who happen to share your values and are needy.
We people of this era see marrige and romance as the individual's right whereas, earlier, there were people who rose above such limited boundaries. So these ayat, IMO, are not directed at us who cringe at the thought of polygamy, and that is why no one who embraces todays life style should try to apply polygamy to themselves. You have the example of rich Arabs who practice it and splash their money around, without a second thought for the rest of the world who share their values.
hmm -
Peace,
The believers are not outsiders for me. I would help them financially as well. I only gave the example of a brother and other relatives, because I wanted to show you how I liken the believers to be like my own flesh and blood. Actually, the believers mean more to me than my flesh and blood (they do not believe, by the way).
Still, I refuse to share my husband, as a method in which to prove how much I love and care for my believing family (Ummah). I have the right to live a monogamous lifestyle given that's the way in which I function best. There is nothing in the Quran that compels me to share my marriage with others. I have the right to monogamy and to be respected for it.
This has nothing to do with era or time period. This has to do with respecting the rights of those women who wish to remain monogamous. These things should be discussed prior to marriage and a mutual decision should be met by the engaged couple. A marriage contract with these stipulations would make it ever the more clear. It doesn't make sense to betray that decision at a later time as the contract would be legally binding.
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Peace,
Also, what's a marriage without love and romance? We're human beings after all.
What marriage in Islam is, is another discussion and what is romance in Islam and what is sex in Islam again are separate discussions. I can understand your anger at the thought of sharing your husband, but I honestly believe these ayat were intended for a situation like the we currently have in Iraq for instance an.
Salaam -
Peace )
I think I understand what you are saying. If what you say is correct, then I just can't help but feel the injustice in it. Am I allowed to say that? I feel guilty admitting it. As a woman, it makes me feel very insecure that husbands are allowed to marry up to four women that fit the description that you just mentioned. I just can't see the wisdom in that. (
Look, no need to feel bad too soon, like I said this thread is to discuss the issue of polygamy. So far we have settled two things, first, that there is no direct prohibition against polygamy in , secondly, Yatama An Nisa in is no limited to 'Orphans of women', but can also mean, 'Isolated/Jaded of the women'. Also, every time I'm using the word orphan, I'm referring to the Arabic concept of Al Yateem, which I already explained. Now, let's peacefully, and slowly, discuss this issue. There are many ways to begin, but first, lemme point out something in that would definitely ease you a bit, I think Samia pointed it out in one of those old threads, I think. Anyway, in the literal translation it doesn't say 'Two, or three, or four', but it says ' twos, and threes, and fours', or another possible translation is 'Two at the same time, and three at the same time, and four at the same time', and then says 'So if you fear you cannot be equal, then one'. Based on the 'Twos, threes, fours', and 'Then one', I deduce that the person marrying, is originally, unmarried, and, that the marriage with multiple wives has to be done on the spot, what I'm trying to say, is that it is not allowed, that one gets married like say in 2013, and then in 2017 marries again, no, that's not permitted, if he has to have multiple wives, he'll HAVE to decide how many women he's marrying, and that too only once, like, if he wants to marry three women, and he's marrying them in 2013, he HAS to marry them at the same time. This of course would lead to a mutual consent from all the women, at the same time, and if he can't afford to get married to multiple women, then only one, and one alone. How does that sound? And this is not merely my opinion, or someone else's opinion, this is deduced by the 'Twos, threes, fours', since these terms 'Mathna', 'Thulatha', and 'Ruba'a', suggest meanings like 'In pairs of two, groups of three, or groups of four'.
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Peace Fallen Angel 21098, )
I apologize to you if I came across "worked up" -[ . I'm a woman and this issue of polygamy is something that often leaves us ladies feeling uneasy.
It's so funny that you brought that up. I was wondering the same thing the other day. Could this verse by possibly directed toward the single, unmarried man? I was thinking about the words "mathna", "thulatha", and "rubaa" as well. It seems that God is referring to these marriages taking place in one, single setting? I can definitely see how that may work.
Imagine a wealthy man who can afford more than one marriage. There may be women willing to partake in a polygamous union. Perhaps, it would then be lawful for him to marry these women in twos, threes, and fours? It could be for a variety of reasons. War, disease, famine, loneliness, etc?
I've found several translators who have also provided the literal translations for these words
- Laleh Bakhtiar
- Daryabadi
- Ghali (provides the literal)
- Usmani
- Muhammed Ahmed and Samira
- Palmer
It makes me feel a little better. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I was thinking about putting up a thread myself, and then forgot all about it.