Pork & Logic
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Dear Zenje, rossi,
Right now I am not sure what to think, but the discussion here has led me to believe that pork is not forbidden, and I can not find any strong arguments for the opposite.
Best regards
Ali Omar
salaam Ali,
i feel the same way...
but the mental conditioning that has been ingrained in me against it, is so strong that i don't think i will be able to consciously eat it...
perhaps, i shall not worry too much about it nor be too obcessed with it...peace, bro.
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Peace be upon you all,
Sorry that I am posting with nothing "real" to add to the discussion, but I just wanted to let you know that I am stuck in the same dilemma. It just doesn't make logical sense that pigs meat alone is restricted while so many other unhealthy meats and foods are out there. It strongly leans towards a SYMBOLIC meaning in my opinion on not being a greedy person. Greedy people grow from arrogance which comes from the ego. This is what casued the fall of "adam and his wife", they had rejecting thoughts(shayteen) from the mindset of desperation(iblis).
But I am still not thoroughly convinced. Does anyone have any opinions on the blood and other restrictions in those same verses? Is it possible to eat an animal without injesting blood in some way? (I am not the best of cooks so I am unsure, nor do I command the grill at any cookouts )
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Peace Idol,
Daman Masfuhan=blood poured forth or running blood. (6146)
I've been thinking that the blood restriction is qualified by this verse. A little of even highly poisonous substances are not necessarily harmful and sometimes even helpful. Just a thought.
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Right now I am not sure what to think, but the discussion here has led me to believe that pork is not forbidden, and I can not find any strong arguments for the opposite.
Thank you for your thoughts, even though I didn't word my question correctly. ops
Salaam
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Peace all,
I think it has been clearly shown by Shuaib, Sabo, Someone, and others that khanzeer cannot possibly mean ?bad meat I see? according to Arabic grammar, and I have not heard a single counter argument yet.
Even if we ignore the Arabic grammar (which I don?t), replacing ?pig? with ?bad/stinking/maggoty I see? doesn?t make any logical sense either.
6145 He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Point 1
Why ?meat I see bad??
Why does it have to be seen?
Often we can tell meat is bad from its smell, rather than its looks.
Why not ?bad meat I smell??It doesn?t say ?carrion I see? or ?blood I see?.
Why doesn?t it just say ?bad meat??
Point 2
All things in the list can be eating without physical harm. One can eat
- what has died of itself
- blood
- flesh of pig
- having someone/something else?s name mentioned upon food
without physically harming themselves. We are allowed to eat these items under necessity as a mercy from God.
Under necessity, to me, means if one doesn?t have recourse to other food sources. Personally, I would need to be starving in such a case.
What is the effect of eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat? Wouldn?t it give someone food poisoning, or make them violently ill? When someone is under starvation (or even under normal conditions), couldn?t eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat kill the person?
Is eating rotten/maggoty meat supposed to be a mercy from God??
peace
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Peace David, all,
Peace all,
I think it has been clearly shown by Shuaib, Sabo, Someone, and others that khanzeer cannot possibly mean ?bad meat I see? according to Arabic grammar, and I have not heard a single counter argument yet.
This is a reminder to those who remember.
i think the words '...wa lah ma-lkhinziiri...' means '...and meat rotten/bad...', as pointed out by mz.
Peace rossi,
I think your statement is wrong according to arabic grammar."meat rotten/bad" in arabic using "khinzir" as rotten would sound like "lahmoun khiziroun".
Or "the rotten meat" -->"allahmou alkinzirou"
Instead, in the arabic verses, there's "lahma alkhinzir" which translates as "meat of the khinzir", still to define what khinzir is.
The way "alkhinzir" is used in the verses shows that it cannot be an adjective for "meat".
I think we could improve our knowledge if we are humble and sincere. Arguing without sufficient knowledge of the Arabic language is a loss of a precious time.
Each detail in arabic text has a major importance for a better understanding. The comprehension can be false if one neglected some details and rules of the arabic grammar.
We have to consider both the context, the structure, the grammar and the meaning of each word to get a full picture.Our goal is to learn and we sould be able to reconsider our opinions.
The arrogance and pride is a brake to advance in the knowledge.
Allah firms His revelations and guides those who truly believe, to the Straight Path and their hearts humbly submit to Him.
Let not us be as those who had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and eyes with which they did not see, and ears with which they did not hear.
- And if the quran is being studied, then listen to it and pay attention, that you may receive mercy.
Peace
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Peace all,
The following verse contains a similar sentence than (lahma alkhinzir) in 2173
- And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari wa alghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
shuhoomahuma/their fat implies
shuhoom albaqari = the fat of the "baqari/cattle"
and
shuhoom alghanami = the fat of the "ghanami /sheep"
In the same way for alkinzir, albaqari and alghanami cannot be an adjective for "fat".
There is no affense, the fat of the "baqari/cattle" the "ghanami /sheep" doesn't mean the boiled or roasted fat lol
Hope that helps
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Salam,
following is taken from HarunYahya.com
I thought it might be interesting.Kashif
PORK AND ITS HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HEALTH
He has only forbidden you carrion, blood and pork and what has been consecrated to other than Allah. But anyone who is forced to eat it-without desiring it or going to excess in it-commits no crime. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an, 2173)
Eating pork is harmful to health in a great many regards. This harm still persists today, despite all the precautions that are taken. First and foremost, no matter how clean the farms and environments on which it is raised may be, the pig is not by nature a clean-living animal. It often plays in, and even eats, its own excrement. Due to this and its biological structure, the pig produces much higher levels of antibodies in its body than other animals. In addition, far higher levels of growth hormone are produced in the pig compared to those in other animals and human beings. Naturally, these high levels of antibodies and growth hormone pass across to and collect in the pig's muscle tissue. Pork meat also contains high levels of cholesterol and lipids. It has been scientifically proven that these significant amounts of antibodies, hormones, cholesterol and lipids in pork represent a serious threat to human health.
The existence of above-average numbers of obese individuals in the populations of countries such as the USA and Germany, in which large quantities of pork are consumed, is now well-known. When exposed to excessive quantities of growth hormone as a result of a pork-based diet, the human body first puts on excessive weight and then suffers physical deformations.
Another harmful substance in pork is the "trichina" worm. This is frequently found in pork and when it enters the human body, it settles directly in the muscles of the heart and represents a possibly fatal threat. Even though it is now technically possible to identify pigs that are infected with trichina, no such methods were known in earlier centuries. That means that everyone who ate pork risked infection by trichina and possible death.
All these reasons are just a part of the wisdom in our Lord's prohibition on the consumption of pork. Moreover, this commandment of our Lord's provides complete protection from the harmful effects of pork under any conditions.
Until the 20th century, it was impossible to be aware of the danger posed to human health by pork. The fact that the Qur'an, revealed fourteen centuries ago, warns against this harm which has been incontrovertibly revealed with modern medical equipment and biological tests, is one of the miracles demonstrating that the Qur'an is the revelation of Allah, the Omniscient. Despite all the precautionary measures and inspections that take place in modern-day pig rearing, the fact that pork is physiologically incompatible with the human body and is a variety of meat harmful to human health has not altered.
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Peace ashraff,
Salamun alaikum...
I dont think GOD need a reason for forbidding pork in our diet. Just like Adam and his wife. God does not need a reason for forbidding the "Tree" in the Garden right.
To me it is all a test in upholding God's instructions.salam.
ashraff
Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile (fisqun). (53)
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction (rijsun) used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. (590)
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul (rijsun) ; or what is corruptly (fisqan) dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (6145)
The word "rijsun" is also used in 771, 995.
Peace
Marie
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I had it in PRL, thought might as well post it
root of 'rijsun'
Ra-Jiim-Siin = state of commotion, confuse greatly, make a noise/sound, hinder/prevent, unclean/dirty/filthy, evil, something which is unlawful/forbidden, unbelief/infidelity/doubt.
http//www.irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk/burhan/b.x.683.htm
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Peace.
Could it be that the prohibition had anything to do with the plague of Justinian; as a precaution? And does anyone know if pigs had any share in the spread of this pandemic?
Wikipedia
The plague may also have contributed to the success of the Arabs a few generations later in the Byzantine-Arab Wars.
Abdelilah
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how about other part of pig such as their skin, fat and bone?This verse clearly said the meat of pig that being forbidden..so i dont think that verse refer to specific animal..
same goes to the blood..i dont think god forbid us from eat the blood of animal..after all it is impossible to eat meat of any animal without eat the blood in it..
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Peace.
The reason I myself can't belief that it has anything to do with the plague nor that if the prophet would have lived in our times pork would not have been forbidden, because everything is much better conserved etc. is the wording. It says it's forbidden because it is foul, period. So it has to do with the meat itself, nothing else.
Peace SiNoob,
6145 explains it's running blood that is forbidden.
Abdelilah
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Greetings and Peace, all group
Pigs and humans share over 90% of the same genetic coding. It is hard to pin down an exact number, some non-scholarly sources say as much as 98% similarity.
Xenotransplantation studies look promising and are ongoing.
As far as I know, the ban on eating swine flesh is binding for believers, not submitters.
2172 O you who believe, eat from the good things We have provided for you, and be thankful to GOD; if it is Him you serve.
2173 He has only made unlawful for you that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated with to other than GOD. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then there is no sin upon him. GOD is Forgiving, Merciful.
ALLAH knows best.
peace
Abdul-Hadi
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We can make all kinds of guesses as to why pork is haram, but ultimately they dont matter; if its in The Quran and you are a Muslim you dont eat pork.
But everything in AlQuraan is logical with clear explanations.
6145
Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah. But whoever is forced, neither desiring nor transgressing, then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salams
indeed. I have read some disturbing things about Pork on a nutritionists site (non religious), i will try and find it and post. It might help illuminate as to why it is forbidden, and it might not. It is good to try and understand, but if we cant at this point in time theres no point worrying about it, all we need to know as a bottom line is that Quran says it is forbidden. -
The Qur'an says why, it is rijs. I do not like it trnaslated as pure, in the sense that it may be taken as ritually impure, and the Qur'an does not talk about impurity of that kind concerning food. It says in general that nothing that is good is forbidden. So if nothing that is good is forbidden, pig is not good for eating. And also see the company in which it appear carrion and blood, which obviously are impure, but not for any ritual reason, but simply as food for eating. It also says that if we are under need we may eat it. God does not forbid for the sake of forbidding, therefore the reason must be sanitary and as far as I can see there is not much mistery in it. Many people, who are not muslims or of jewish faith are forbidden to eat pork by their medicine doctor. That is very often. Many pregnant women are also forbidden. Metabbolisation of pig takes several months. It is a meat that is popular because economically you can get a lot of meat and other "edibles" very quickly, but not because of its quality.
Salaam
