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  4. Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

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  • R Offline
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    Released
    wrote on last edited by
    #31

    Peace )

    I think this is discussed in 4127, but I'm sure if God is saying that the topic has already been revealed prior to the revelation? If that were the case, then perhaps in a prior revelation? I'm looking at a few translations here with the Arabic? Perhaps, we can look a this together? Can you copy and paste the verse from the translation you are looking at with the Arabic transliteration?

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    • R Offline
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      #32

      Peace again

      Though, I agree to a large extent what you've written up in the adultery thread. I think that there are some who are trying to completely rid the Quran of polygamy all together. From my own analysis, I can't seem to find a justification for that. I recognize that it is permissible, but I also see that monogamy is encouraged (justice cannot be between the women whether it be one's own mother and wife, one's wife and his sisters, one's wives, one's daughters, and etc). This is something that God warns us about.

      While it's permissible, the context in which I see it being specifically mentioned, is one having to do with charity, care giving, and protecting from theft or corruption (managing the orphan's wealth). When God refers to polygamy, he doesn't mention things like lust or recreation. Also, I read a verse 334, in which God says He has not given men two hearts. Perhaps, this means that there isn't enough room for that equality factor between the wives.

      In our discussion revolving polygamy, I think it's also important to remember the human factor in all of this. Our goal in polygamy should be to help and not maim. It should be to promote justice. If we end up promoting a justice in the name of an injustice, then I don't think we've gained anything as a community. These are just my thoughts. You are probably asleep right now. I'll check in later to see your response, God willing. ;D

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        unknownuser
        wrote on last edited by
        #33

        Peace D,

        I'm so glad that I opened this thread, cause of two things

        1. I know I'm not crazy as there is someone who does agree with me
        2. I am coming across different opinions regarding these verses which have helped me a lot

        First let me address your first post, actually, the Arabic of that verse is mentioned in my very first post. But I'll post it again anyway, and show you why I believe that it says that what it mentions is already revealed before, within the book

        Transliteration Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

        (The part in bold is the phrase)

        I don't really rely on translations, I mainly try my best to read them all, along with dictionaries and then do my own. I'm a hafiz (Memorized the Quran), so I know the Arabic quite well (Not boasting, but it feels good, though I'm still revising) but here they are

        And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning ...

        They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning ...

        They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning ...

        As you can see, all of them translate the phrase, 'Wa Ma Yutla Alaykum Fi AlKitab' as 'That which is recited/has been rehearsed unto you in the book (Gives decree) concerning'

        Now here's my analysis

        Wa = And, Consider, Behold
        Ma = What
        Yutla = It is recited, It is rehearsed*
        Fi = In
        Al Kitab = The Book
        Fi = Concerning**

        *Note how Yutla doesn't mean 'Recited/Rehearsed', but 'It is recited/rehearsed'
        **Fi is a very vague term which depending upon context can mean 'In', 'Within', 'Concerning' etc.

        Now what do you think about this? And like I mentioned twice already, the other two topics discussed in this verse, have already been quite directly, and straightforwardly discussed prior to this verse.

        Here's my reply to your second post

        First of all, THANK YOU SO MUCH for opening my eyes to your interpretation of , about men not being fair with women, I feel so lame, that I was not able to see that, my mind was confined to the typical one that men can't do justice within their wives, and wives alone, I didn't realize that it can refer to so many relationships.

        Secondly, I think that we (By we I'm including others too, as we (you and me) aren't the only ones agreeing to this) have finalized the following

        1. Main theme of these verses are orphans
        2. Main purpose for Nikah (whether its my/mirjamnur's interpretation that it refers to polygamy, or huruf's interpretation that it generally refers to having multiple marriages) is the justice for orphans, and not fulfilling carnal desires of men
        3. It mentions, twos, threes, and fours, and one at a time, not two, three, four, or one

        I think we are coming to a final conclusion, though we must be very patient, and honest in this quest.

        And thanks for pointing out , didn't see it, it'll definitely be of benefit in our mission. (Yeah, treat it as a mission, if God wills, it will make it easier, the more determined, and honest, the better chances of finding the truth)

        Do read my replies on the Adultery thread, and I'm saying 'Replies' for a reason, cause I really detest that people - even if done by accident - neglect a person's replies if he/she made multiple replies.

        And yes, I was sleeping, hope you reply soon. After that I/we will focus on , and then my interpretation of what is Nikah in this verse, and huruf's opinion regarding this verse.

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        • R Offline
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          wrote on last edited by
          #34

          Peace

          You are a Hafiz! That is pretty awesome! Though, the important thing is that you are seeking to understand God's words through research and investigation, mashallah. I wasn't born into a Sunni or Shia family, but I embraced 'Sunnism' in my teens. It was encouraged that I learn to read the Quran in Arabic, but only with the tafsir of those who were deemed appropriate. College and working full time caught up with me, and I never took the time to do it. Now, I am slowly learning with the help of my husband. He taught himself how to read in Arabic through the use of a few books. I don't think I will ever be a Hafiz, but I want my children to be well rehearsed in the Quran, God willing. My daughter is only 6 months old, but I am hoping to get her some private tuition when she gets older. Also, no, you do not appear crazy to me laugh

          Thank you for posting verse 4127 again sun. Here is what I was able to deduce from you said

          1. Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
          2. This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

          Okay, this is what I've been able to understand thus far. Can you re clarify for me as to what you and Huruf were discussing in relation to 'yatama an nisa' (in regard to what I've understood in the above)? I apologize if I come across a little slow. Sometimes, I am in need of a little repetition and clarification.

          I am very happy that God guided me in bringing attention to verses 4129 and 334. I also brought up verse 334 to my husband today, and he found my understanding interesting as well. He also mentioned something else that he happened to find in his studies. He would post it himself, but has been a little busy as of late. I will post his analysis on his behalf in a separate post, God willing.

          I really think this cross referencing is doing us a lot of good.

          1. Main theme of these verses are orphans
          2. Main purpose for Nikah (whether its my/mirjamnur's interpretation that it refers to polygamy, or huruf's interpretation that it generally refers to having multiple marriages) is the justice for orphans, and not fulfilling carnal desires of men
          3. It mentions, twos, threes, and fours, and one at a time, not two, three, four, or one

          Agreed!

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            unknownuser
            wrote on last edited by
            #35

            Peace )

            Peace )

            You are a Hafiz! That is pretty awesome! Though, the important thing is that you are seeking to understand God's words through research and investigation, mashallah. I wasn't born into a Sunni or Shia family, but I embraced 'Sunnism' in my teens. It was encouraged that I learn to read the Quran in Arabic, but only with the tafsir of those who were deemed appropriate. College and working full time caught up with me, and I never took the time to do it. Now, I am slowly learning with the help of my husband. He taught himself how to read in Arabic through the use of a few books. I don't think I will ever be a Hafiz, but I want my children to be well rehearsed in the Quran, God willing. My daughter is only 6 months old, but I am hoping to get her some private tuition when she gets older. Also, no, you do not appear crazy to me laugh

            Thanks, and as for your daughter, May God help her, and make her live a successful happy life, but make sure that - if you hire a tutor - he/she doesn't have any 'Sunnistic' or 'Shiitistic', or mainly, 'Tradionalistic' influence on her if you know what I mean

            Thank you for posting verse 4127 again sun. Here is what I was able to deduce from you said

            1. Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
            2. This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

            I checked corpus.quran.com, they give you a word by word analysis of the verses, and it turns out, your right. Yutla is an imperfect veb, which means that its in the continuous state, or in the present tense. In other words, its much better if we translate it as 'It is recited/rehearsed'. So the whole phrase now becomes Consider/And what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa ...

            Now before I move on, I have one question, what's the point of making that statement in the first place? I mean, the whole verse goes, 'They ask your decision concerning women, Say Allah gives you the ruling concerning them, and/consider what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa ...

            So what's the reason for saying 'consider/and what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book'? Why didn't God simply move on from 'Allah gives you the ruling concerning yatamanisa'? God doesn't obviously do things without a reason now does He?

            Can you re clarify for me as to what you and Huruf were discussing in relation to 'yatama an nisa' (in regard to what I've understood in the above)? I apologize if I come across a little slow. Sometimes, I am in need of a little repetition and clarification.

            The whole thing was that what is the meaning of Yatama An nisa. As we all know, Yateem in its general form means 'Isolated' 'Jaded' 'Left alone' etc. Consider how Khamar in its basic form means 'Covering', and from that came the word 'Khimar' which means 'A cloth that covers' or the drink 'Khamar' which lead to intoxication, or 'Covering' of the mind. Similarly, 'Yateem' became a word that refereed to orphans in Arabia. In the Quran, 95% of the times words originating from 'Yateem', and the word 'Yateem' itself appear, they come with the Arabic article, 'Al', which means 'The'. This way, 'Yateem' or 'Yatama' etc. turn into a definite noun, as in, 'The Yateem', or 'The Yatama'.

            Does that make sense? If it does, read on

            In , the word 'Yatama' does NOT come with an 'Al', but comes in its general form of 'Yatama'. Furthermore, Yatama is connected to An Nisa, thus, it translates more like, 'Yatama of Nisa'. Now huruf takes this to mean 'Orphans of the women', or 'Orphans that belong to the women', while Abdul Mannan Omar in his dictionary, says, that 'Yatama an nisa' is a phrase that means something along the lines of isolated women, or as he describes it 'Women without husband (Widows or divorced or unmarried)', in other words, he says that Yatama describes a type of nisa, rather than being something that belongs to An Nisa. I opted for that opinion for, you can say, four main reasons

            1. Dictionary says so
            2. After saying Yatama An Nisa, Allah goes on to describe the Nisa, by saying that 'To whom you don't give what is prescribed for them yet you desire to marry them', this shows that the Nisa are the subject, and not Yatama, this motivated me to opt for the opinion that Yatama simply in this case describes Nisa.
            3. If we take it as isolated/jaded women, as in widows and divorcees, and opt for the interpretation that mentions topics which have already been discussed, then it makes perfect sense since in the Quran prior to this verse, there are many instances where the Quran discusses widows and divorcees, furthermore, it even mentions in how men wanted to marry widows, but they have to wait till the 'Prescribed' period is fulfilled, and in another verse says that widows are to be given a year's maintenance. says the same thing that some me wanted to marry these women, and not give them what is prescribed for them. See the connection?
            4. The main question by the people was concerning women, so wouldn't it make sense if Allah starts His answer by discussing women?
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              Lena
              wrote on last edited by
              #36

              Peace
              If we take it as isolated/jaded women, as in widows and divorcees,

              Sura 43 Very interesting to read your suggested translation and that it may not refer to child orphans at all but to adult women (who are orphans??) What about Sura 42 Wa 'aatul-yataamaaa Will that also refer to adult women who are widows or divorcees?

              If yataamaa refers to isolated adult women, can you confirm if it's the feminine form of the noun? What is the male form. and what is the form if it is a mixed group of males & females? Is there a clear Qurayshi arabic (transliteration) word for orphan girls anywhere else in Quran?

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              • R Offline
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                wrote on last edited by
                #37

                Peace

                Thank you for your well wishes! Oh, we?re concerned about that as well! We?re going to look hard for a tutor that does not have such inclinations. Nevertheless, I?ll probably sit in during the process just to be sure that he or she does not go off any sectarian tangents, God willing (Maybe I?ll learn thing or two).

                4127

                Consider/And what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa

                Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

                Now, what you are saying actually makes sense. Up until the part, ?to whom you don?t give what is preached for them? everything made sense. However, once the question of marriage comes up, ?yet you desire to marry them?, that?s when the traditional translation stops making sense to me. One cannot marry the orphans, and so clearly, the orphans are not the ones being addressed here.

                There is something that is not being offered to these widowed or divorced women ?yatama an nisa? upon the proposal of marriage. Could God be referring to dowry? Perhaps, these women are refusing to give these women their dowries, though the men are keen in marrying them? Or, perhaps God is referring to the year?s maintenance that happened to be mentioned. Initially, I was thinking this verse may have something to do with dowry. Now, I?m pondering over the years? worth of maintenance.

                1. Yes, I think it makes sense. God begins the chapter with a full explanation along with proper protocol, and then readdresses the issue in 4127.

                There is one thing that I am concerned about though. You mentioned that 'Yatama' is connected to An Nisa. I always thought the word Yatama was gender masculine.

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                • R Offline
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                  wrote on last edited by
                  #38

                  I just caught my mistake here

                  1. Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It was recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was been recited/rehearsed"
                  2. This part of the verse appears to be in the present tense. As a result, we cannot say that what was recited in regard to these women was revealed in the past?

                  **** Wa ma yutla fi al kitab fi actually means "It is recited/rehearsed" as opposed to the more traditional translation of "It was recited/rehearsed"

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                  • R Offline
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                    wrote on last edited by
                    #39

                    Peace Lena

                    Well, I think that in 43, 'yatama' can still be referred to as the 'orphan children'. The 'Al" exists before it within the verse, if I am looking at it correctly. However, we're are discussing in regard to where the "Al" is missing. At least, I think that's accurate.

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                      huruf
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #40

                      Regarding the yatama an Nisaa'i or al yatama An-Nisaa'i, I have nothing against the explanation for the understanding exposed by Fallen Angel, but still I cannot see how that overrides or should override that genitive mood of the Nisaa'i. What is the explanation for overriding it? I feel that, unless there is a satisfactory explanation from the gramatical point of view, no matter how much the other understanding may make sense or I may find it suitable, it is arbitrary or not warranted and I do not feel that I have authority to override it to give my own interpretation of the Qur'an.

                      Regarding poligamy, masculine or feminine, I think aya 24.32 is very relevant.

                      24.32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

                      It is a clear indication that the import of marriage is not that some people should have a plurality of consorts, but that every person should have one.

                      Which again supports the point of view that poligamy may be admissible when there is a shortage of people of one sex, but not otherwise. If there are not enough people to marry the single who would rather not be single, then those willing to marry more than one would have a reason for it, but not while there is no shortage, because that would mean that others are being condemned to celibacy, and the injunction to marry the sangle would not have been complied with.

                      See also this thread_

                      http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15958.msg157190#msg157190

                      Salaam

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                        wrote on last edited by
                        #41

                        Peace Huruf,

                        I disagree with this interpretation. I don't see any verses that refer to men and women practicing polygamy due to shortages of either sex. The "shortages of the female sex" is an argument used by the Sunnis, yet it cannot be found in the Quran. In life, people are condemned to a lot of things for whatever reasons. You say that you do not have the authority to override or give your own interpretation, but I see this as nothing short of an interpretation.

                        If you are saying that "marry those among you who are single" could possibly pertain to polygamy, then it in fact encourages polygamy. After all, all who are married should then continue to marry those who are single, until we have have attained perfection. I see it as the verse that emphasizes monogamy. In the Quran, the verses in Chapter 4 are those that describe polygamy in greater detail than in anywhere else in the Quran, as He emphasizes the plight of orphans and what could done to benefit them. God does not mention anything about those who are condemned to celibacy or seek companionship.

                        "every person should have one"

                        You are speaking of entitlement. Every person is entitled to a spouse? I do not see it as so as per the Quran. Marry the single means to marry the single. You should marry the one who is single. This verse is not in any way encouraging that one should marry the 'married' among the population of males and females. If one wishes to marry the 'married', then God provides the appropriate rationale and protocol in detail in Chapter 4. Even in those circumstances, He warns of the potential inequities and injustices.

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                          dawngorgeous
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #42

                          Peace All,

                          I am wondering how several verses I have recently explored fit into this discussion. Let's begin with 412 which speaks of inheritance. Regarding the men, the verse says; "...they get one fourth of what you leave behind, if you had no children. If they had children, they get one eighth.".

                          How would this work then if a man had four wives and many children? I guess a court would simply work it out? And if the man were poor and his wives were left with orphans, then another man could come along and even marry all four of them to protect the orphans. And what if he suddenly died.....

                          We can also look at 41, where it states " ...the One who created you from one being and created from it it's mate...". Surely this tells us straight away that God believes in one man one woman.

                          I feel that further on in the chapter when God speaks of the orphans, we have become confused. Perhaps, some of us unwilling to relinquish old ideas instead of seeking what is actually there.

                          A reminder Koran 4,82 "why do they not study the Koran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions".

                          Regarding the case of one man one woman, there are too many contradictions and most of us on this thread believe the Koran is from God.

                          Peace,

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                            Lena
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #43

                            If God created people from nafsin waahidatin(one soul? is this word a male gender?)and its zawjahaa (mate), (is this word a female gender?) how did the population increase? Did their children (brothers and sisters) marry each other? Did the father / mother marry their sons/daughters?

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                              Released
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #44

                              Peace Dawn,

                              I think you are looking at the situation with the perspective of "worst possible scenario" or as if every family that engages in polygamy is going to be "one walking fiasco". Ideally, the math should be left for the courts to decide. If a man is poor, does it make sense for him to marry more than one? What if the second husband dies? People get remarried all the time. Some children end up with step fathers and step mothers as a result. Those step fathers and mothers also end up dying at some point. This is a part of life. In that case, the inheritance continues to be divided.

                              The injustice primarily appears to be with the initial wife, in your opinion. However, do you not think the greater injustice is to ignore the the plight of the orphans? This has nothing to do with men indulging in their fantasies, this measure prescribed by God is meant to strengthen communities by providing a family structure and protection to the orphaned children. It is not meant to destroy existing marriages or wreck havoc on relationships. After all, it's based on mutual decision. How else are we to maintain the love and mercy between the heart of a husband and wife?

                              Also, if we were to marry off the mothers of the orphans, then why is it better to marry off only 1 if we fear inequity or injustice? This still does not make any sense to me.

                              Also, there is the issue of fankihu and ankihu that we need to address, if were to consider the translation of "marry off".

                              I feel so tired. I feel like everyone is only thinking of themselves and their personal welfare. These verses clearly revolve around the orphans, from my personal perspective and analysis.

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                                Released
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #45

                                Peace Lena, )

                                That's actually a really interesting question! It's something I wonder about too. I have no intention of being rude, but can you explain how this topic relates to the polygamy issue? I'm a little confused.

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                                  huruf
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #46

                                  Peace Huruf,

                                  I disagree with this interpretation. I don't see any verses that refer to men and women practicing polygamy due to shortages of either sex. The "shortages of the female sex" is an argument used by the Sunnis, yet it cannot be found in the Quran. In life, people are condemned to a lot of things for whatever reasons. You say that you do not have the authority to override or give your own interpretation, but I see this as nothing short of an interpretation.

                                  If you are saying that "marry those among you who are single" could possibly pertain to polygamy, then it in fact encourages polygamy. After all, all who are married should then continue to marry those who are single, until we have have attained perfection. I see it as the verse that emphasizes monogamy. In the Quran, the verses in Chapter 4 are those that describe polygamy in greater detail than in anywhere else in the Quran, as He emphasizes the plight of orphans and what could done to benefit them. God does not mention anything about those who are condemned to celibacy or seek companionship.

                                  "every person should have one"

                                  You are speaking of entitlement. Every person is entitled to a spouse? I do not see it as so as per the Quran. Marry the single means to marry the single. You should marry the one who is single. This verse is not in any way encouraging that one should marry the 'married' among the population of males and females. If one wishes to marry the 'married', then God provides the appropriate rationale and protocol in detail in Chapter 4. Even in those circumstances, He warns of the potential inequities and injustices.

                                  I guess I have not made myself clear, because you have itnerpreted exactly tghe opposite of what I wanted to say.

                                  Salaam

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                                    Released
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #47

                                    Peace,

                                    Yes, because I believe in the exact opposite of what you mean. Though, if you believe that you have not made yourself clear, then you are welcome to making it more clear so that I may understand you better.

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                                      unknownuser
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #48

                                      Woah, woah,...woah......

                                      Everyone's having fun without me eh?

                                      lol, ok my turn to jump in Answers to all posts in this one post

                                      Peace
                                      If we take it as isolated/jaded women, as in widows and divorcees,

                                      Sura 43 Very interesting to read your suggested translation and that it may not refer to child orphans at all but to adult women (who are orphans??) What about Sura 42 Wa 'aatul-yataamaaa Will that also refer to adult women who are widows or divorcees?

                                      If yataamaa refers to isolated adult women, can you confirm if it's the feminine form of the noun? What is the male form. and what is the form if it is a mixed group of males & females? Is there a clear Qurayshi arabic (transliteration) word for orphan girls anywhere else in Quran?

                                      Like I said, its just an interpretation, and due to the grammatical issue, I'm thinking about not opting for it, and going with the traditional one that it means 'Orphans belonging to women'. However, to answer your questions, for a full feminine plural form, its Yateemaat, full male plural form, its Yatama, but in Arabic, male includes female though.

                                      Peace

                                      Thank you for your well wishes! Oh, we?re concerned about that as well! We?re going to look hard for a tutor that does not have such inclinations. Nevertheless, I?ll probably sit in during the process just to be sure that he or she does not go off any sectarian tangents, God willing (Maybe I?ll learn thing or two).

                                      4127

                                      Consider/And what it is recited/rehearsed to you in the book concerning Yatamanisa

                                      Wayastaftoonaka fee alnnisai quli Allahu yufteekum feehinna wama yutla AAalaykum fee alkitabi fee yatama alnnisai allatee la tutoonahunna ma kutiba lahunna watarghaboona an tankihoohunna waalmustadAAafeena mina alwildani waan taqoomoo lilyatama bialqisti wama tafAAaloo min khayrin fainna Allaha kana bihi AAaleeman

                                      Now, what you are saying actually makes sense. Up until the part, ?to whom you don?t give what is preached for them? everything made sense. However, once the question of marriage comes up, ?yet you desire to marry them?, that?s when the traditional translation stops making sense to me. One cannot marry the orphans, and so clearly, the orphans are not the ones being addressed here.

                                      There is something that is not being offered to these widowed or divorced women ?yatama an nisa? upon the proposal of marriage. Could God be referring to dowry? Perhaps, these women are refusing to give these women their dowries, though the men are keen in marrying them? Or, perhaps God is referring to the year?s maintenance that happened to be mentioned. Initially, I was thinking this verse may have something to do with dowry. Now, I?m pondering over the years? worth of maintenance.

                                      1. Yes, I think it makes sense. God begins the chapter with a full explanation along with proper protocol, and then readdresses the issue in 4127.

                                      There is one thing that I am concerned about though. You mentioned that 'Yatama' is connected to An Nisa. I always thought the word Yatama was gender masculine.

                                      Your welcome

                                      I agree, its either the dowry, or the year's maintenance. And like I said in my reply to Lena above, Yatama happens to be a masculine word, but remember, masculine included feminine.

                                      Peace Lena

                                      Well, I think that in 43, 'yatama' can still be referred to as the 'orphan children'. The 'Al" exists before it within the verse, if I am looking at it correctly. However, we're are discussing in regard to where the "Al" is missing. At least, I think that's accurate.

                                      I believe that Yatama everywhere else refers to 'The Yatama', or 'The Orphans' as it appears as 'Al Yatama' with no link to any other word whatsoever, only in it comes as a linked word, AND without an Al, thus I considered the other interpretation, that it is more like a phrase that refers to widows or divorcees.

                                      Regarding the yatama an Nisaa'i or al yatama An-Nisaa'i, I have nothing against the explanation for the understanding exposed by Fallen Angel, but still I cannot see how that overrides or should override that genitive mood of the Nisaa'i. What is the explanation for overriding it? I feel that, unless there is a satisfactory explanation from the gramatical point of view, no matter how much the other understanding may make sense or I may find it suitable, it is arbitrary or not warranted and I do not feel that I have authority to override it to give my own interpretation of the Qur'an.

                                      Regarding poligamy, masculine or feminine, I think aya 24.32 is very relevant.

                                      24.32 Marry those among you who are single, or the virtuous ones among yourselves, male or female if they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all, and he knoweth all things.

                                      It is a clear indication that the import of marriage is not that some people should have a plurality of consorts, but that every person should have one.

                                      Which again supports the point of view that poligamy may be admissible when there is a shortage of people of one sex, but not otherwise. If there are not enough people to marry the single who would rather not be single, then those willing to marry more than one would have a reason for it, but not while there is no shortage, because that would mean that others are being condemned to celibacy, and the injunction to marry the sangle would not have been complied with.

                                      See also this thread_

                                      http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15958.msg157190#msg157190

                                      Salaam

                                      Huruf you're right, its the reason why we're not able to find strong grammatical evidence for Abdul Mannan Omar's opinion that I am not 100% agreeing with the interpretation.

                                      As for 2432, please just wait a bit, cause I wanna address each point one by one, so first let's clear up , then come to this.

                                      Peace All,

                                      I am wondering how several verses I have recently explored fit into this discussion. Let's begin with 412 which speaks of inheritance. Regarding the men, the verse says; "...they get one fourth of what you leave behind, if you had no children. If they had children, they get one eighth.".

                                      How would this work then if a man had four wives and many children? I guess a court would simply work it out? And if the man were poor and his wives were left with orphans, then another man could come along and even marry all four of them to protect the orphans. And what if he suddenly died.....

                                      We can also look at 41, where it states " ...the One who created you from one being and created from it it's mate...". Surely this tells us straight away that God believes in one man one woman.

                                      I feel that further on in the chapter when God speaks of the orphans, we have become confused. Perhaps, some of us unwilling to relinquish old ideas instead of seeking what is actually there.

                                      A reminder Koran 4,82 "why do they not study the Koran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions".

                                      Regarding the case of one man one woman, there are too many contradictions and most of us on this thread believe the Koran is from God.

                                      Peace,

                                      Thanks for pointing out 482, it really is a powerful verse. Your post above is quite deep and profound in my eyes, I recommend people read it carefully. As for the inheritance issue, I think Released addressed it quite finely.

                                      If God created people from nafsin waahidatin(one soul? is this word a male gender?)and its zawjahaa (mate), (is this word a female gender?) how did the population increase? Did their children (brothers and sisters) marry each other? Did the father / mother marry their sons/daughters?

                                      Zawj is not feminine in nature. Its a noun that means husband, wife, or mate in general.

                                      And guys as for the marrying or marry off, please check out my last post on the Adultery thread, I have provided my reason for opting for 'Marrying', and we'll discuss it further, but first lets settle ourselves on what is the true meaning of Yatamanisa

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                                        Edip_Yuksel
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #49

                                        From the introduction of the Quran a Reformist Translation

                                        Can One Marry Underage Orphans?

                                        A passage of the Quran has persistently been interpreted as sanctioning marriage to young orphan girls

                                        Disputed passage The traditional rendering suggests that the objects of marital intention are the orphans, not the mothers.

                                        Yusuf Ali

                                        ?They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.? (4127)

                                        Pickthall

                                        They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (4127)

                                        Shakir

                                        And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it. (4127)

                                        Reformist

                                        They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, ?God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of helpless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it. (4127)

                                        DISCUSSION OF 4127

                                        Though the Quran permits polygamy for men (43), it severely discourages its actual practice by requiring certain significant preconditions men may marry more than one wife only if the later ones are widows with children, and they should treat each wife equally and fairly. (See 419-20; 127-129.). Unfortunately, verse 4127 has been traditionally misinterpreted and mistranslated in such a way as to suggest that God permits marriage with juvenile orphans. This is clearly not the case.

                                        The Arabic expression yatama-l nisai-l lati in 4127 has been routinely mistranslated as ?women orphans, whom?? The expression is also sometimes translated as ?orphans of women whom?? This later translation, though accurate, makes the crucial reference of the objective pronoun ?whom? ambiguous Does the phrase after ?whom? describe orphans or women?

                                        As it happens, the Arabic plural pronoun in this verse is the female form, allaty (not the male form allazyna), and it can only refer to the women just referenced, not to the orphans. This is because the Arabic word yatama (orphans) is male in gender!

                                        All the English translations of the Quran that we have seen have mistranslated this passage. This is remarkable, because correct translation requires only an elementary knowledge of Arabic grammar. This error is thus much more than a simple grammatical slip; it is, we would argue, willful misrepresentation. The traditional interpretation of this passage offers an apparent justification for marriage with children, which flatly contradicts the Quran.

                                        Like so many passages in the Quran, 4127s meaning was severely distorted in order to gain the favor of rich, dominant males. Over the centuries, male scholars with active libidos have used fabricated hadith to pervert the meaning of this and other Quranic verses relating to marriage and sexuality. (See the discussion of 665, below.)

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                                          Released
                                          wrote on last edited by
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                                          Peace all)

                                          Given that the grammar isn't entirely consistent, what was earlier deduced may not hold up. As a result, I can agree that yatama an-nisa from 4127 could mean "orphans of the women".

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