Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

Edip_Yuksel

From the introduction of the Quran a Reformist Translation

Can One Marry Underage Orphans?

A passage of the Quran has persistently been interpreted as sanctioning marriage to young orphan girls

Disputed passage The traditional rendering suggests that the objects of marital intention are the orphans, not the mothers.

Yusuf Ali

?They ask thy instruction concerning the women say Allah doth instruct you about them And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.? (4127)

Pickthall

They consult thee concerning women. Say Allah giveth you decree concerning them, and the Scripture which hath been recited unto you (giveth decree), concerning female orphans and those unto whom ye give not that which is ordained for them though ye desire to marry them, and (concerning) the weak among children, and that ye should deal justly with orphans. Whatever good ye do, lo! Allah is ever Aware of it. (4127)

Shakir

And they ask you a decision about women. Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it. (4127)

Reformist

They ask you for divine instruction concerning women. Say, ?God instructs you regarding them, as has been recited for you in the book about the rights of orphans whose mothers you want to marry without giving them their legal rights. You shall observe the rights of helpless children, and your duty to treat orphans with equity. Whatever good you do, God has full knowledge of it. (4127)

DISCUSSION OF 4127

Though the Quran permits polygamy for men (43), it severely discourages its actual practice by requiring certain significant preconditions men may marry more than one wife only if the later ones are widows with children, and they should treat each wife equally and fairly. (See 419-20; 127-129.). Unfortunately, verse 4127 has been traditionally misinterpreted and mistranslated in such a way as to suggest that God permits marriage with juvenile orphans. This is clearly not the case.

The Arabic expression yatama-l nisai-l lati in 4127 has been routinely mistranslated as ?women orphans, whom?? The expression is also sometimes translated as ?orphans of women whom?? This later translation, though accurate, makes the crucial reference of the objective pronoun ?whom? ambiguous Does the phrase after ?whom? describe orphans or women?

As it happens, the Arabic plural pronoun in this verse is the female form, allaty (not the male form allazyna), and it can only refer to the women just referenced, not to the orphans. This is because the Arabic word yatama (orphans) is male in gender!

All the English translations of the Quran that we have seen have mistranslated this passage. This is remarkable, because correct translation requires only an elementary knowledge of Arabic grammar. This error is thus much more than a simple grammatical slip; it is, we would argue, willful misrepresentation. The traditional interpretation of this passage offers an apparent justification for marriage with children, which flatly contradicts the Quran.

Like so many passages in the Quran, 4127s meaning was severely distorted in order to gain the favor of rich, dominant males. Over the centuries, male scholars with active libidos have used fabricated hadith to pervert the meaning of this and other Quranic verses relating to marriage and sexuality. (See the discussion of 665, below.)

Released

Peace all)

Given that the grammar isn't entirely consistent, what was earlier deduced may not hold up. As a result, I can agree that yatama an-nisa from 4127 could mean "orphans of the women".

Released

Peace Edip

Thank you for sharing that with us. I've read it before and agree with your findings, as I have reached a similar conclusion.

Released

Peace all )

Another thing I would like to reiterate is that one should take into the account the way in which verse 43 introduced

wa in khiftum alla tuqsitu fi' al-yatama

43 And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or to whom you are committed to by oath. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

For me, the words in bold give light to the primary condition that is required before engaging in polygamy. One must have the prerequisite of fear in regard to the welfare of the children.

Also, notice how God uses the word "And if you fear". This alone shows that there is a condition that must be met.

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

As I endeavoured to point out in my post, I am not particularly interested in opinion. I am interested in what the Koran is aiming to say. If it is saying we share our husbands with 10 wives in order to help others, then I will do it - as long as there are no contradictions.

The point I am making is this regardless of how any of us on this board feels about polygamy, there exists contradictions on this subject and God clearly tells us there are NO contradictions in the Koran.

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

Why would marrying the mothers of the orphans cause you to be more just?

Released

Peace,

You do not care for opinions in this regard, as you have said. However, everyone's post here is an opinion. It is a perspective. However, they are opinions provided with some sort of research, so that the audience can also read and reflect.

Though, I find that there are many contradictions in your opinion, which is why I cannot accept "marry off". I am sorry, but I believe your opinion to be fueled by the unwillingness to see it any other way. Please correct me if I am wrong.

There are too many contradictions in regard to grammar and consistency in regard to this alternative interpretation. I've mentioned some of these things within both this thread and the previous one. Though, you did not address a single thing. I'm starting to feel tired because I feel like I am repeating myself.

Instead, you are very simply telling me that I am wrong, and that polygamy is a despicable institution regardless. Our discussions have been very circular. I have admitted to you that I do not like the idea of polygamy, but I will not deny what God has made permissible, as I truly believe He has made polygamy permissible within a specific context in order to benefit the most vulnerable in this world. As I've said before, I cited numerous contradictions in both threads, and you have been silent in most aspects.

You asked men this Why would marrying the mothers of the orphans cause one to be more just?

It's not a question of which is more just from the get go. It's a question as to which is the most accurate interpretation that we can arrive, while keeping in line with context, grammar, and using our cross-referencing skills. After having done thorough research, then one can conclude whether their findings have fulfilled the justice that has been sought. The "marry off" interpretation is not even plausible, from my analysis. So, I have to work with what I am left with. I'm trying really hard to be honest in my work.

You mentioned verse 482. We are doing just that. We are studying these verses carefully. The interpretation I hold happens to be the one without contradiction, in my very humble opinion. As I've said before, I find too many contradictions with "marry off", and so I will not accept it. Of course, I am still open to reading what others have found and written, as I am fully aware of the possibility that I could be wrong as I am not infallible. Fallenangel21098 has done a great job in breaking material down for me, and I've also tried to be clear in what I've deduced. We are all working on this. I may not find exactly what my heart desires, but I hope to find what God deems best for the orphans.

Noon_waalqalami

I am wondering how several verses I have recently explored fit into this discussion. Let's begin with 412 which speaks of inheritance. Regarding the men, the verse says; "...they get one fourth of what you leave behind, if you had no children. If they had children, they get one eighth.".

How would this work then if a man had four wives and many children? I guess a court would simply work it out

Peace, see inheritance thread...

Peace herbman,

Notice the switch " to them" with " to you" otherwise the math would not work.
Example 4 wives, no child, each wife would get 1/4, leaves nothing for the parents.

412
and to you half what left your spouses if not was to them waladun/offspring/child
so if kana/is (masculine) to them walad (if to deceased/wife a male child/born) so to you the fourth

and to them the fourth from what you left if not was to you waladun/offspring/child
so if kana/is (masculine) to you walad (if to deceased/husband a male child/born) so to them (feminine plural) the eight

Few more examples...

wife-1 (son)
wife-2 (son)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = true
if no child = false
wives share = 1/8 fixed
parent share = 1/6 fixed
1 - 1/3 parents - 1/8 wives = 13/24 sons

wife-1 (daughter)
wife-2 (no child)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = false
if no child = false
wives share = variable
1 - 1/2 daughter = 1/2 wives (1/8 each)

wife-1 (son)
wife-2 (daughter)
wife-3 (no child)
wife-4 (no child)
if son = true
if no child = false
wives share = 1/8 fixed
1 - 1/8 wives = 7/8 children (7/24 daughter + 7/12 son) 21 ratio male to female

Multiple wives permitted...

423
prohibited onto you ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed

IF marrying multiple sisters = FALSE
THEN marrying non-sisters = TRUE

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

Thanks for your reply. I cannot join in with the grammatical discussion as I have no Arabic. In order to come to a conclusion on this matter, every aspect and verse ever mentioned relating to marriage, women etc., has to be explored. You didn't answer my question on 'just'.

Dawn

unknownuser

Peace all,

Ok guys calm down, just in case if things are getting heated up in your heads So I guess this is what is happening in

People are asking questions concerning women to the Prophet, to which Allah reveals that HE is the one who'll answer them, and then says to consider all those verses etc. that deal with oppressed children, being just with orphans, and concerning orphans of women who they want to marry but won't give what is prescribed for them. Although I still have that 'Missing' feeling, like, there's something we're not grasping regarding this verse, like, if it truly does mean 'as has been recited for you in the book', then where have these orphans of women who they want to marry yet won't give what is prescribed for them mentioned?. But anyway, we'll stick to this until we find a better translation with strong evidence to support it, and one more thing I want to say is that obviously those people who were present at that time knew what was the meaning, and were obviously able to understand it, and they were also asking concerning a specific type of women at that particular situation. I don't know if I'm rambling but thought this is something we should always consider when interpreting verses.

Now let's actually talk about polygamy.

First we'll see . We already did have some discussions regarding it, and here is what I think closest to the literal translation with my comments in ]'s and notes in ()'s

And if you fear you won't be able to do justice/deal with fairness within/concerning orphans , so marry (We'll discuss whether it's marry or marry off in a bit) who have agreed with/to you from the women, in twos and threes and fours, consequently/but if you fear you won't be able to deal equitably, so one, or who are possessed by your oaths/right hand (I'll brief up my opinion on this), This is the best way to avoid doing injustice/to avoid deviating from the right course

So here is how I break down this verse

Society is being addressed
indicates that giving orphans their property is a command (Obviously when they'll reach the marriageable age as indicated in ) and not do any mishap with them

Now before I move on the next point, note that the whole society was not responsible for orphans, it were the guardians of orphans, though the rest of the people could get involved for the betterment for them, as this verse does address the whole society, but the ones who are giving them their property were guardians. This is similar to how in says 'Forbidden to you are your mothers', now here God is also addressing the whole society, but it'll of course apply only to those who have a mother, or in it says 'Say to the believing men to lower their gaze', now of course it applies only to those believers who can lower their gaze, not to those who are blind, or consider where Allah says to be kind to your parents and kinsmen and neighbors and your MMA, only those who have MMA will be able to be kind to them, if they don't, then this verse is not applicable for them, or only those who have neighbors will be able to be kind to them, for those who don't, this verse is not applicable to them. See what I mean? So, though I like how Huruf pointed out that it is the society being addressed, the orders being given regarding orphans would apply only to those who have the responsibility of orphans, not literally each and every person, and as we know, in that era, it were the guardians, and I'm sure there are thousands of books regarding Arab culture that would say this.

If, and only IF there are chances of injustice to orphans, where injustice may be directly linked to and mean injustice in matters of property, or may generally means injustice including emotional injustice,, Nikah may take place. Before I move on, let me share my opinion on whether its marry or marry off. The Arabic word is Fankihu, Fa is a particle, and the word itself is Inkihu as per corpus.quran.com, with a suffix that is an attached subject pronoun, as per Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary, Inkihu with a subject pronoun like means 'Marry', and if it were Inkihu without that, then it would be 'Marry off', in this verse, it is the former case, or according to another dictionary, 'Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic usage', it would be 'Marry off' if it were 'Unkihu' with a subject pronoun. Though it doesn't mention , it cites , where a similar word 'Tankihu' comes with the same subject pronoun as Fankihu, and says that it means 'Marry'. So technically, I have two dictionaries, and Corpus.Quran.Com to back me up when I say it means 'Marry'. While studying this, I also came across a very interesting point regarding , but I won't mention it now, as I want to focus on .

So, the ones who fear injustice with orphans are ordered to marry those women who have agreed with them. Agreed for what? Obviously for the justice of orphans. Like I said way up in this post, people to whom these verses were being revealed, knew what circumstances were taking place and were obviously able to interpret them properly. If it means justice as in justice in matters of property, then I'm sure that it refers to those women who are the mothers of these orphans, as marrying them would decrease the chances of the guardian being unjust with the property of the orphan. Note that it is the 'Fear' of being unjust, as man has been created weak, and liable to sin, even if the guardian feels that in some time in his life he might commit sin regarding orphan's property, he is ordered to marry women who have agreed with him, where the best option would be the orphan's mother. If justice here refers to emotional justice, then things become much more sensible, orphans have been given extra care and attention in the Quran, this is quite similar to how out of all the animals, Allah focuses more on An'aam, or Ankabut, or Naml etc. So, obviously to reduce their chances of feeling deprived, or being void of motherly love, the guardian may marry women who agreed with them regarding the orphan.

The guardian is single at this time, this is proven by the usage of 'If you fear that you won't be able to deal equitably, then only one', obviously, 'Then only one' is part of the command, 'Marry', thus, it means 'Marry only one'. Like I said in another post, the marriages take place at one instance, in other words, the guardian has to decide how many women he's marrying, he can marry a pair of two, group of three, or four, but if not, then only one, and one it is.

As for the term 'Or who are possessed by your oaths/right hand', I believe, as pointed out by Muhammad Asad in his commentary, that the 'Or' is not linked with 'If you fear you won't be able to deal equitably then', but with the term 'Marry those who have agreed with you from the women'. Maybe if I copy paste his words you'll understand it better

It is obvious that the phrase "two, or three, or four but if you have reason to fear...", etc. is
a parenthetic clause relating to both the free women mentioned in the first part of the
sentence and to female slaves - for both these nouns are governed by the imperative verb
"marry". Thus, the whole sentence has this meaning "Marry from among women such as
are lawful to you, or those whom you rightfully possess - two, or three,
or four but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal
fairness, then one" - implying that, irrespective of whether they are free women or,
originally, slaves, the number of wives must not exceed four. It was in this sense that
Muhammad 'Abduh understood the above verse (see Manar IV, 350).

Though I have some differences with his interpretation, you get the point right?

All of this is that the guardian does not do injustice

Tell me what you think

And thank you Noon Waalqalami, thanks a lot for your post

Released

Peace Dawn,

It is not a matter of fulfilling every public opinion. There are some things in which God has placed a lot of good, yet we are unable to see it as "just". So, you will never see polygamy as "just" as you fail to allow the welfare of the orphans to supersede your own feelings.

That's my answer on "just". Though, I know it will never satisfy some. As we're looking out for the overall welfare of the community, it does not matter to me if one such individual does not see the matter as "just". Thank you.

dawngorgeous

Peace Fallen Angel,

Thank you for your in-depth reply. I am still wondering though, what does unjust mean here? If you fear you will be unjust, what difference would it make by marrying the mother? And how does marrying up to four wives provide a stable environment. In the light of another verse that points out it is impossible to treat all your wives fairly, therefore it is better to stick to one, how does this all gel together.

Perhaps the verse is referring to a certain part of society? The prophet Mohammed in his older years after Khadija, married several women for political and social reasons.

If God points out it is impossible to be fair to all your wives, then surely we are still missing something. It's a very interesting and enjoyable discussion and I hope we get an enlightening outcome with God's help and our good, intelligent intentions.

unknownuser

Peace Dawn,

If you are referring to , well here is my take on it

Allah doesn't simple end the verse when He says 'You cannot deal equitably between women', He provides a solution by saying that due to this men shouldn't sway on one side too greatly and leave a woman hanging in suspense. This is similar to how Allah says in I think that 'Indeed Man is created impatient/haste', does this mean that we should just stop trying and go on committing sin and being impatient and unwise? No, we should use this verse to help us in our hard times, and a motivation to strive for patience. Thus, when Allah says that we can't be just between women, it doesn't mean that we lose all hope and never try.

If you are referring to where Allah says He hasn't given men two hearts, well if you read on, He mentions a few more things, and then says 'these are the words of your mouths'. What I mean is, that we men might claim to have two hearts, and act philosophical and romantic and stuff, but in reality, we only have one, and we should utilize that.

I think I have stated quite a lot of times and so has Released that unjust here may refer to emotional injustice, or financial/in matters of property injustice. Read my fourth ">" in my last post to understand it.

I hope the same, Inshallah we will find the truth.

Released

Peace to both FallenAngel21098 and Dawn )

People are asking questions concerning women to the Prophet, to which Allah reveals that HE is the one who'll answer them, and then says to consider all those verses etc. that deal with oppressed children, being just with orphans, and concerning orphans of women who they want to marry but won't give what is prescribed for them. Although I still have that 'Missing' feeling, like, there's something we're not grasping regarding this verse, like, if it truly does mean 'as has been recited for you in the book', then where have these orphans of women who they want to marry yet won't give what is prescribed for them mentioned?. But anyway, we'll stick to this until we find a better translation with strong evidence to support it, and one more thing I want to say is that obviously those people who were present at that time knew what was the meaning, and were obviously able to understand it, and they were also asking concerning a specific type of women at that particular situation. I don't know if I'm rambling but thought this is something we should always consider when interpreting verses.

Agreed

Now let's actually talk about polygamy.

First we'll see . We already did have some discussions regarding it, and here is what I think closest to the literal translation with my comments in ]'s and notes in ()'s

And if you fear you won't be able to do justice/deal with fairness within/concerning orphans , so marry (We'll discuss whether it's marry or marry off in a bit) who have agreed with/to you from the women, in twos and threes and fours, consequently/but if you fear you won't be able to deal equitably, so one, or who are possessed by your oaths/right hand (I'll brief up my opinion on this), This is the best way to avoid doing injustice/to avoid deviating from the right course

So here is how I break down this verse

Society is being addressed
indicates that giving orphans their property is a command (Obviously when they'll reach the marriageable age as indicated in ) and not do any mishap with them

Now before I move on the next point, note that the whole society was not responsible for orphans, it were the guardians of orphans, though the rest of the people could get involved for the betterment for them, as this verse does address the whole society, but the ones who are giving them their property were guardians. This is similar to how in says 'Forbidden to you are your mothers', now here God is also addressing the whole society, but it'll of course apply only to those who have a mother, or in it says 'Say to the believing men to lower their gaze', now of course it applies only to those believers who can lower their gaze, not to those who are blind, or consider where Allah says to be kind to your parents and kinsmen and neighbors and your MMA, only those who have MMA will be able to be kind to them, if they don't, then this verse is not applicable for them, or only those who have neighbors will be able to be kind to them, for those who don't, this verse is not applicable to them. See what I mean? So, though I like how Huruf pointed out that it is the society being addressed, the orders being given regarding orphans would apply only to those who have the responsibility of orphans, not literally each and every person, and as we know, in that era, it were the guardians, and I'm sure there are thousands of books regarding Arab culture that would say this.

Agreed. This is the point as to where I agreed with Huruf, after reading from the beginning of the chapter over and over again. I see that although the verses are addressed to the entire community, it is the guardians who have the option of marrying these women, given that they fear some type of injustice to the orphans. I'd like to add that I think the society's cultural norms may have played a role in this. They have not had proper banking systems and financial institutions as we have now. As a result, it may have been very easy to manipulate the vulnerable members of the society and grab their wealth. Perhaps, a male caregiver or guardian would help prevent this from happening, as wealthy and powerful males always had the upper hand in this type of society. Of course, things have not changed so much, in this regard. We face similar corruption within the finance sectors in the Western countries as well. Though, the law of the land has allowed for stringent checks and balances, and the rights of all are at least maintained constitutionally. I think the societal context is something to consider here as well. These are just my thoughts. Thank you for bringing up Huruf's perspective again as it brings new light to the issue.

If, and only IF there are chances of injustice to orphans, where injustice may be directly linked to and mean injustice in matters of property, or may generally means injustice including emotional injustice,, Nikah may take place. Before I move on, let me share my opinion on whether its marry or marry off. The Arabic word is Fankihu, Fa is a particle, and the word itself is Inkihu as per corpus.quran.com, with a suffix that is an attached subject pronoun, as per Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary, Inkihu with a subject pronoun like means 'Marry', and if it were Inkihu without that, then it would be 'Marry off', in this verse, it is the former case, or according to another dictionary, 'Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic usage', it would be 'Marry off' if it were 'Unkihu' with a subject pronoun. Though it doesn't mention , it cites , where a similar word 'Tankihu' comes with the same subject pronoun as Fankihu, and says that it means 'Marry'. So technically, I have two dictionaries, and Corpus.Quran.Com to back me up when I say it means 'Marry'. While studying this, I also came across a very interesting point regarding , but I won't mention it now, as I want to focus on .

Agreed

So, the ones who fear injustice with orphans are ordered to marry those women who have agreed with them. Agreed for what? Obviously for the justice of orphans. Like I said way up in this post, people to whom these verses were being revealed, knew what circumstances were taking place and were obviously able to interpret them properly. If it means justice as in justice in matters of property, then I'm sure that it refers to those women who are the mothers of these orphans, as marrying them would decrease the chances of the guardian being unjust with the property of the orphan. Note that it is the 'Fear' of being unjust, as man has been created weak, and liable to sin, even if the guardian feels that in some time in his life he might commit sin regarding orphan's property, he is ordered to marry women who have agreed with him, where the best option would be the orphan's mother. If justice here refers to emotional justice, then things become much more sensible, orphans have been given extra care and attention in the Quran, this is quite similar to how out of all the animals, Allah focuses more on An'aam, or Ankabut, or Naml etc. So, obviously to reduce their chances of feeling deprived, or being void of motherly love, the guardian may marry women who agreed with them regarding the orphan. Nice!

Agreed

The guardian is single at this time, this is proven by the usage of 'If you fear that you won't be able to deal equitably, then only one', obviously, 'Then only one' is part of the command, 'Marry', thus, it means 'Marry only one'. Like I said in another post, the marriages take place at one instance, in other words, the guardian has to decide how many women he's marrying, he can marry a pair of two, group of three, or four, but if not, then only one, and one it is.

Agreed

As for the term 'Or who are possessed by your oaths/right hand', I believe, as pointed out by Muhammad Asad in his commentary, that the 'Or' is not linked with 'If you fear you won't be able to deal equitably then', but with the term 'Marry those who have agreed with you from the women'. Maybe if I copy paste his words you'll understand it better

It is obvious that the phrase "two, or three, or four but if you have reason to fear...", etc. is
a parenthetic clause relating to both the free women mentioned in the first part of the
sentence and to female slaves - for both these nouns are governed by the imperative verb
"marry". Thus, the whole sentence has this meaning "Marry from among women such as
are lawful to you, or those whom you rightfully possess - two, or three,
or four but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal
fairness, then one" - implying that, irrespective of whether they are free women or,
originally, slaves, the number of wives must not exceed four. It was in this sense that
Muhammad 'Abduh understood the above verse (see Manar IV, 350).

I've read this commentary as well, back when I was trying to understand MMA. It is what makes the most sense to me, though I open to reading the interpretations of others.

Released

Peace

I apologize for the new method in which I am typing responses. It's how I remain organized in ensuring that I do not overlook any aspect of a post. It's similar to quoting the entire message.

FallenAngel21098 said

Peace Dawn,

If you are referring to , well here is my take on it

Allah doesn't simple end the verse when He says 'You cannot deal equitably between women', He provides a solution by saying that due to this men shouldn't sway on one side too greatly and leave a woman hanging in suspense. This is similar to how Allah says in I think that 'Indeed Man is created impatient/haste', does this mean that we should just stop trying and go on committing sin and being impatient and unwise? No, we should use this verse to help us in our hard times, and a motivation to strive for patience. Thus, when Allah says that we can't be just between women, it doesn't mean that we lose all hope and never try.

This is how I see it as well. I see it both as a warning and a guidance. Based on these words, individuals have to decide as to how they doing to make their decisions in life. I've mentioned previously, that men cannot be just between the women in any circumstance. How many of us have heard of problems between mother in laws and daughter in laws? Or how about one sister versus another? Or what about mother vs daughter conflict? Often, husbands, fathers, and brothers are caught in between. Though, it is not always the case, but in many families, it is. Though, I have a feeling, that the wife vs. wife conflict would be akin to a world war. We've all got choices to make, and God gives us the guidance.

If you are referring to where Allah says He hasn't given men two hearts, well if you read on, He mentions a few more things, and then says 'these are the words of your mouths'. What I mean is, that we men might claim to have two hearts, and act philosophical and romantic and stuff, but in reality, we only have one, and we should utilize that.

Yes, I agree

I think I have stated quite a lot of times and so has Released that unjust here may refer to emotional injustice, or financial/in matters of property injustice. Read my fourth ">" in my last post to understand it.

I hope the same, Inshallah we will find the truth.

Inshallah

huruf

If, and only IF there are chances of injustice to orphans, where injustice may be directly linked to and mean injustice in matters of property, or may generally means injustice including emotional injustice,, Nikah may take place. Before I move on, let me share my opinion on whether its marry or marry off. The Arabic word is Fankihu, Fa is a particle, and the word itself is Inkihu as per corpus.quran.com, with a suffix that is an attached subject pronoun, as per Abdul Mannan Omar's dictionary, Inkihu with a subject pronoun like means 'Marry', and if it were Inkihu without that, then it would be 'Marry off', in this verse, it is the former case, or according to another dictionary, 'Arabic-English Dictionary of Quranic usage', it would be 'Marry off' if it were 'Unkihu' with a subject pronoun. Though it doesn't mention , it cites , where a similar word 'Tankihu' comes with the same subject pronoun as Fankihu, and says that it means 'Marry'. So technically, I have two dictionaries, and Corpus.Quran.Com to back me up when I say it means 'Marry'. While studying this, I also came across a very interesting point regarding , but I won't mention it now, as I want to focus on .

Salaam, Fallen Angel,

I think the waw you are referring to has nothing to do with the meaning of the verb, whether it is marry or marry off, but rather with the number of subjects that carry out the action of the verb. The waw is the mark of the masculine or mixed plural, since the same form would be used in both cases. In that it would be using the same pronoun that is used all along since the first aya of the sura. That men are meant is given by the fact that the are to marry women.

The difference between marry and marry off is given the f'ankihu in one, which would be the imperative of a form I verb (nakaha), and the faunkihu , which would be an imperative of a form IV verb (ankaha). So, yes in this case it would be marry.

Where I do not see where you conclude from that it should be the same man who marries one, or two, or three or four, because the verb is still plural, it is a group and they, the group, is the subject that is marrying one or two or three or four. That is it may be four men that marry four women, they same formula applies, it is not saying each of you marry one or two or foutr or three.

?Is there a record that the Prophet at any time married more than one woman at a time?

On the other hand, and I know that that is extra coranical, thraditional fiqh has not admitted marrying more than one woman at the same time. It has to be at different times. And that is surprising, because they could have favoured the male privileges more by making it possible to marry more than one at the same time. If they have used the formulation to uphold a male priviledge, they would have upheld it better guaranteeing the possibility of having multiple marriages from the start.

I still am of the opinion and I cannot see any indication of the opposite that this formulation is not saying either that one man should marry more than one at a time nor it is saying that he shouldn't. It is not an indication whether negative or affirmative of poligamy. I do not think it is touching the subject. The same as the verse concerning the two sisters. It is not giving any indication that poligamy is good or bad or acceptable or not, simply that if there is poligamy, what as not to be done is to be married at the same time to two sisters.

I think I pointed out previously, not very long ago, a news was circulated in islamophobes sites in internet and mailed ad nauseam where collective marriages of "girls-childs" with men were celebrated in Ghaza under the sponsorship of the authorities of Ghaza. Of course the photos circulated, purported as being of the brides, were not of the brides but of the orphan girls whose mothers were being married. That is an example of at least one case of a marriage for the sake of the orphans and has nothing to do with poligamy or monogamy. It also illustrates how that kind of marriage may becollective undertaking of the society in which it takes place, since the sponsorship of those marriages means that the collectivity contributos financially also to setting up the homes for the new families apart from may be other privileges or help. ? prospective husband may be hard working and able to make ends meet barely, but may lack the means to start a new home, so society may help.

That is not the only case I have known of collective sponsored marriages, not only in a muslim society, but in others, specially when circumstances are difficult.

Salaam

Released

Peace

I think the verse are showing whether they are "affirmative" or "negative" in regard to the type of polygamy practice, how it is practiced, and when it is practiced. The verses provide guidance of a variety in order for one to make the most sound decision. I disagree with the idea of "collective marriage". The verses are of course addressing the community, but verse 43 leaves the ultimate decision to the individual. While sponsored marriage sounds like a fantastic idea (and I am all for it), I do not believe that these particular verses have anything to do with sponsorship of collective marriages.

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

Is there another understanding for marry? Perhaps we are thinking too literally? No one has explained to me exactly how it would be fair to the orphans to marry their mothers? For example, just supposing a friend of mine male has two separate sets of orphans to look after. He is a good fair man and does what he is supposed to do regarding the orphans. He clothes them well, feeds them, etc. how would marrying both their mothers make it more just.

Before anyone suggests I'm trying to disprove polygamy, I am not. Like all of you, I am looking for a fair, happy society, as per the Koran. Unfortunately, I cannot engage in this discussion on a linguistic level so I am engaging on an ideas/intellectual level, which I believe is halal as the Koran invites us to ponder?!

Released

Peace Dawn,

I am not a native Arabic speaker, either. Actually, I had opened up a thread earlier in regard to this issue. I speak several languages, but Arabic just isn't one of them. I am cross-referencing translations and relying on Corpus Quran. Also, I am revisiting old threads where those who are knowledgeable in Arabic grammar, have made some very good points. Of course, it takes me a long time to read through their discussions, but I'm able to learn a lot.

How is it more just to marry the orphans?

Through marriage, the orphans are provided with a mother and father who are married. The guardian's authority and protection over the orphans is 100% legitimate as they are now officially a family.
Their mother's status is elevated to that of a wife; she isn't just a charity case anymore.
The orphans are no longer considered a charity case, their family is whole and all of the children are now siblings to one another.
It is through marriage, that the guardian can now safeguard the inheritance the orphans' wealth, and will provide them with adequate shelter, food, clothing, education, education, and most importantly; the love and security of being a part of a family.

I ask you to reflect on the last point, especially. Do you know how difficult it is to grow up without both a mother and father? Do you know how difficult it is to raise children as a single mother? Life becomes a million times easier when you have both mother and father taking an active role in raising the children. Mothers and fathers are unique in their own ways, they nurture in different ways. Having both can often provide a nice balance in a child's life. Growing up without one or the other...well..it's difficult.

So, why is it more fair to marry the mothers? All the points I discussed above give you many reasons. It's fair because it provides the orphans with what they don't have, that other kids do have in the community A loving family with both a mother and father present. I've taught in schools where the majority of the children did not have their fathers in their life. I've also taught in schools with more typical families. Trust me, there are huge differences in the way in which these children behave and perceive the world. There are also huge differences in their overall grades, high school graduation rates, college enrollment rates, potential for incarceration, and teenage pregnancy.

However, if you look at this interpretation from only your own context, then you will not understand my point. I grew up in a upper middle class neighborhood with two supportive parents, and I could not understand polygamy for the life of me. However, exploring different communities and in trying to understand people from different walks of life, made me understand this verse much better.

All in all, it's a huge responsibility to take on and not everyone is equipped for it. Though, if there are those who are able and willing, then I don't see how it cannot be of pure benefit.

I have deduced these points on the exchange of ideas within my intellectual capacity. When we look at the Quran, we need to reflect on the Quran itself, and also reflect on life itself. The Quran is about promoting justice within communities. We need to consider the human factor (as I've said before), when we look at these verses.

How does the above not promote a fair and happy society?

unknownuser

Released, I couldn't have said what you said better than the way you said it bravo