Errors in Translations of the Quran... 4:34
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Selam StopS,
I'm curious to how you can agree that God could tell you as a last resort to beat your woman. Maybe it could be a different upbringing since most men and women in my area believe beating eachother up in general (regardless of sex) is wrong and a more subtle and civilised approach is the way to go.
Well, if I read a sentence and someone who lives by this book the entire life tells me that a god wrote it, what should I do?
Well, where I come from
434
- Men are in charge of women
- Allah has made some of them excel the others, and because of the wealth they have spent
- Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard.
- As for women of whom you fear rebellion, convince them, and leave them apart in beds, and beat them.
- Then, if they obey you, do not seek a way against them. Surely, Allah is the Highest, the Greatest.
ALL the sentences are a cause for concern. For example in modern societies living in the 21st century, men are NOT in charge of women. Maybe where you live it is normal, but not in my part of the planet.
I cannot see how you have come to the conclusion that Allah says "beat them".
If you can't see it, then you should read it in ancient Arabic and then compare different translations in whatever language you are comfortable in. If I accept that the issue at hand is solely centred around one single word and not any of the rest of these sentences, this is pretty poor and really petty stuff.
This is the same verse I read from Yusuf Ali the first time I read the Qur'an and I'll tell you now, looking at the original arabic of the Qur'an is the only way to decipher REALLY what is meant. As for trusting scholars, are you serious? Do you not reckon that maybe these 'scholars' have not a slightly biased view and 'certain things'?
Actually, no, I don't reckon that scholars and Muslim translators such as Marmaduke Pickthal have a biased view on "certain things" - whatever these "certain things" are. I more suspect and reckon you have a biased view.
I urge you to use the arabic to check what the word could possibly mean in English (or whatever language you want) but bare in mind it has to also fit in the context of the verse. The first time I was relieved and realised how wrong this translation was was when I read an article a very long time ago (can't remember the link).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603066.0
That was also a very good topic on the matter. May we all be corrected if our interpretations of things are wrong, however bare in mind Allah does wish for us to use our logic and reasoning... that's what we have it for.
If I concentrate only on this one word and check the Arabic, I come across the same thing beat, scourge. Only in the last couple of years, Muslims who don't like this and are considered backwards for beating women have started looking for alternative explanations and re-interpretations and have come up with inserting "lightly", introducing the miswak and all sorts of funny things, instead of owning up and tackling this head on.
If you liked the topic in the previous edition of this sentence then you prefer a less violent way of solving disputes, which honours you as a person, but in my opinion and from what I have gathered is not what the Koran dictates.
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Only in the last couple of years, Muslims who don't like this and are considered backwards for beating women have started looking for alternative explanations and re-interpretations and have come up with inserting "lightly", introducing the miswak and all sorts of funny things, instead of owning up and tackling this head on.
This shows your ignorance.
If you had bothered to read the link I gave you www.Quran434.com you'd have known this
Ibn Abbas (alleged companion of prophet Muhammad) gave his view on the severity of hitting, and said it is as with a small stick, e.g. siwak. The famous jurist, Al Shafi (about 200 hundred years after prophet Muhammad's death), interpreted it as a "miswak" which is a small stick used for cleaning the teeth. Another famous commentator, Razi, quotes another early jurist who said it can be a coiled scarf (mindil malfuf).
Please try again.
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Wakas, are all men in charge of all women?
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Selam StopS,
I'm curious to how you can agree that God could tell you as a last resort to beat your woman. Maybe it could be a different upbringing since most men and women in my area believe beating eachother up in general (regardless of sex) is wrong and a more subtle and civilised approach is the way to go. I cannot see how you have come to the conclusion that Allah says "beat them". This is the same verse I read from Yusuf Ali the first time I read the Qur'an and I'll tell you now, looking at the original arabic of the Qur'an is the only way to decipher REALLY what is meant. As for trusting scholars, are you serious? Do you not reckon that maybe these 'scholars' have not a slightly biased view and 'certain things'? I urge you to use the arabic to check what the word could possibly mean in English (or whatever language you want) but bare in mind it has to also fit in the context of the verse. The first time I was relieved and realised how wrong this translation was was when I read an article a very long time ago (can't remember the link).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603066.0
That was also a very good topic on the matter. May we all be corrected if our interpretations of things are wrong, however bare in mind Allah does wish for us to use our logic and reasoning... that's what we have it for.
peace
I think StopS relishes this kind of thing. He will uphold through thick and thin that the Qur'an says beat, and even more than beat, scourge, and even more than scourge stone. Anything else would disappoint him, so he says we change things in the last couple of years or of decades rather than admit that the meaning of beat was changed centuries ago when it was interesting to keep women in their place.
I really find this attempt at dialogue with that gentleman an exercise in futility. There are a few like him who will feel robbed if the Qur'an is emptied of weird interpretations like the one he upholds. And on top of it he desn't even know Arabic. Beat that.
Salaam
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I really find this attempt at dialogue with that gentleman an exercise in futility. There are a few like him who will feel robbed if the Qur'an is emptied of weird interpretations like the one he upholds. And on top of it he desn't even know Arabic. Beat that.
Peace huruf,
4358...not darabuhu/beat it to you only disputing nay they people argumentative
434 the men maintainers over the women in what favored The God some of them over others in what they spend from their wealth so the righteous obedient guarding to the unseen/intimate in what keeping The God and the ones whom you fear their recalcitrant so admonish them and leave them in the beds wa-idribuhunna/and strike them (feminine) so if they obey so not seek onto them a way indeed The God is High Great
How to treat high-maintenance, hard to please, attention seeking, demanding women? laugh
http//www.midlifebachelor.com/images/articleimages/hm.jpg
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Wakas, are all men in charge of all women?
Aaahhh, this is an EXCELLENT question and one that can open the doors for much, much deeper exploration of 434. This is what I was trying to pointing out the last time I had opened a thread here on this verse (but of course to no avail).
While pondering on Farouk's question may I also suggest everyone here who is grounded in Arabic Grammar to utilize as many Arabic Lexicons and Dictionaries they can and really, really EXPLORE the definitions and morphology of EVERY WORD that is in that verse?
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I think StopS relishes this kind of thing. He will uphold through thick and thin that the Qur'an says beat, and even more than beat, scourge, and even more than scourge stone. Anything else would disappoint him, so he says we change things in the last couple of years or of decades rather than admit that the meaning of beat was changed centuries ago when it was interesting to keep women in their place.
I really find this attempt at dialogue with that gentleman an exercise in futility. There are a few like him who will feel robbed if the Qur'an is emptied of weird interpretations like the one he upholds. And on top of it he desn't even know Arabic. Beat that.
Salaam
I "relish" this? What exactly is the "this"?
Well, I have 2 options take what I like from the Koran and interpret the rest in a way I like it until it reflects my own opinions or take the Koran the way it was written.
Personally I don't appreciate the cowards who run away from the unpleasant sides in whatever there is and at the same time command respect for what they deem benevolent. It's false and dishonest.
If you want to change the word in the Koran, then do so. But please explain why. And explain why every Muslim needs to accept that.
And then, please explain if I can go and re-interpret any word?
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Let me summarise this to bring this to a factual discussion
in the original and starting post, we are told that the Koran is distorted and one of the worst is 434. That's all.
I later learned that the large, red words "beating women" was not part of the signature, but a link. So I made a mistake of not recognising this. My fault.
So I listed the 5 components of 434 and asked where the distortion was.
This resulted in the more precise claim that the entire discussion should centre around a single word, the word "beat", which is somehow erroneous.
Nobody told me what the alternative should be and why. The person who started this thread came here and instead of explaining his extremely weak formulation just asked about something totally unrelated about some mosque.
So this is a typical example of a thread where people are pussy-footing around, exchanging personal opinions and nobody is presenting any focused or substantiated line of reasoning any longer.
What is the point of opening a thread with a one liner without explaining anything at all?
Let me explain my view
The context of the word "beat" in 434 is that of a chain of levels of punishment. The 3rd and final resort. If, only if, a wife is rebellious (without any definition what is considered as rebellious) the man, who is considered to be in charge of this wife, can initiate proceedings to bring her back in line, which is a 3 stage sequence of an oral admonishment, a physical separation from the matrimonial bed and finally a physical beating.It has been translated as that for centuries. By experts. People who studied Classic Arabic have confirmed to me that it does mean exactly that and contemporary scholars also agree. All literature, whether Tafsir or sunnah or sira all agree that a physical punishment is acceptable.
So it makes contextual sense, etymological sense and all texts I know substantiate that understanding.
Now a guy on some forum rocks up and says he disagrees and I am stupid and a fool to not believe him. Really?
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Peace StopS.
Quote It has been translated as that for centuries. By experts. People who studied Classic Arabic have confirmed to me that it does mean exactly that and contemporary scholars also agree. All literature, whether Tafsir or sunnah or sira all agree that a physical punishment is acceptable.
How about this the following explanation of
434 God prohibits wife-beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don't want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife-beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this sura is defending the women's rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this sura must be in favour of the women. This sura's theme is ``protection of women.''
peace.
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How about this the following explanation of
434 God prohibits wife-beating by using the best psychological approach. For example, if I don't want you to shop at Market X, I will ask you to shop at Market Y, then at Market Z, then, as a last resort, at Market X. This will effectively stop you from shopping at Market X, without insulting you. Similarly, God provides alternatives to wife-beating; reasoning with her first, then employing certain negative incentives. Remember that the theme of this sura is defending the women's rights and countering the prevalent oppression of women. Any interpretation of the verses of this sura must be in favour of the women.
Yes, you COULD re-translate or re-interpret it like that. But why would you want that when it is perfectly clear in the original version?
Why would anyone mention a physical beating - or Market X to stay with your analogy - if it should or will never come to that?
Does the Koran contain superfluous sentences or words?This sura's theme is ``protection of women.''
Are you quite sure? In my opinion, it is the opposite. This is where men are told they are allowed multiple wives (not the other way around), that men are allowed sex with female slaves, men are allowed a portion of a woman's wealth, men receive double the inheritance under several circumstances, women are confined to the house for life for "lewdness" - men are not, wives can be "replaced", men are "in charge" of women, need to clean themselves if they have been in contact with women and 90% of the rest of this chapter has nothing to do with women. The only sentence or aya I know of which is different and closer to what you claim is 4128. Other than that women are mainly considered as wombs.
If I am wrong, then please correct me, but that is what I read and understand.
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Peace StopS.
Since I am not a scholar or expert , nor do I claim to be one, why would you believe me? .
Trying to explain that some scholars and experts could be wrong , may be a waste of both our time.
Thank you.
Peace. -
Woman lives Biblically in Tennessee for one year; Rachel Held Evans says calling husband 'master' was 'weird'
A woman who lived Biblically for a year in Tennessee said the experience was both rewarding and at times, weird.
http//www.clarionledger.com/article/20121018/NEWS/121018004/Woman-lives-Biblically-Tennessee-one-year-Rachel-Held-Evans-says-calling-husband-master-weird-
http//www.ibtimes.com/woman-lives-biblically-rachel-held-evans-calls-husband-master-cuts-hair-writes-about-it-photo-848329
http//rachelheldevans.com/biblical-womanhood/
I had posted this in another thread...she even lived outside in a tent during her menses...wow!
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The greatest question anyone ever asked me regarding 434 was this "Can the wife do the same to the husband if he is disobedient?"
;D
Peace,
Amina
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Peace StopS.
Since I am not a scholar or expert , nor do I claim to be one, why would you believe me? .
Trying to explain that some scholars and experts could be wrong , may be a waste of both our time.
Thank you.
Peace.Hi, That's why I asked you personally, you, not some scholar, what your opinion was.
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Peace StopS.
I think along the following lines
Men and Women Endowed With Unique Qualities
432
You shall not covet the qualities bestowed upon each other by God; the men enjoy certain qualities, and the women enjoy certain qualities. You may implore God to shower you with His grace. God is fully aware of all things.The theme is " protection of women" God goes on to say this
450
Note how they fabricate lies about God; what a gross offence this is!Just because " multi meaning words "are used in Qoran, people can mistranslate and abuse the meanings of some verses to exploit women!
For example people claim " beating a wife" is allowed and polygamy is allowed .
God discourages polygamy
Polygamy Discouraged*
4129
You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else). If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.Traditions are justified and encouraged, even if it means creating " contradictions" with the scripture.
Peace.
Of course
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Peace StopS.
I think along the following lines
Men and Women Endowed With Unique Qualities
432
You shall not covet the qualities bestowed upon each other by God; the men enjoy certain qualities, and the women enjoy certain qualities. You may implore God to shower you with His grace. God is fully aware of all things.The theme is " protection of women" God goes on to say this
450
Note how they fabricate lies about God; what a gross offence this is!Just because " multi meaning words "are used in Qoran, people can mistranslate and abuse the meanings of some verses to exploit women!
For example people claim " beating a wife" is allowed and polygamy is allowed .
God discourages polygamy
Polygamy Discouraged*
4129
You can never be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging (neither enjoying marriage, nor left to marry someone else). If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.Traditions are justified and encouraged, even if it means creating " contradictions" with the scripture.
Peace.
Of course
I agree with you totally with what it is supposed to mean and what it should say. Alas, why does the Koran mention something ambiguous?
Why not say men are NOT in charge of women. Humans can only have one permanent partner? Women are NOT tilth. Men are NOT allowed to rape a woman - and vice versa. Men are NOT allowed to physically abuse a woman - and vice versa.So it would actually be quite easy and would absolve you of trying to ignore what you don't like and cherry-pick what you accept personally.
Nobody would "mistranslate" or "misinterpret" anything.
Just take a look at your example If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
What does this mean? What is the meaning of "correct this situation"?
What is the meaning of "maintain righteousness"?And if you don't "correct" the situation, God is not forgiving? Or do you need to be correct AND be righteous? But if the God were "Most Merciful" there would be forgiveness even if a person made a mistake. Right?
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Peace StopS.
Unfortunately, many things in life are " ambiguous" and we make things more difficult. Is this to do with God or humans?
I would argue the " language" as interpreted by humans does not help.
Also , if you make a mistake, God is forgiver most merciful.
Peace.
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Peace StopS.
Unfortunately, many things in life are " ambiguous" and we make things more difficult. Is this to do with God or humans?
I would argue the " language" as interpreted by humans does not help.
Also , if you make a mistake, God is forgiver most merciful.
Peace.
.... and that is why we are back with faith .... -[
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I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com
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salaam aqua,
Your article suffers from multiple problems as highlighted here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599954.msg347142#msg347142"withdraw/turn away / go away from them"
Requires the tashkeel of present day Arabic Quran to be incorrect
This alleged usage in 434 occurs in 435 with the preposition "Aan", thus making Quran seems inconsistent IF it did mean that in 434
No identical example of this DRB usage in Quran
No explanation of how the authority are notified
It is unclear to what extent one separates, how they can do so without being unjust etc
No supporting marital example in Quran
My view Impractical result when inserted into 4128-130 and somehow requires iAAradan to be a positive thing and potentially makes Drb/3rD similar"cite them" www.Quran434.com
Works perfectly with the tashkeel in the present day Arabic Quran
Several identical examples of this DRB usage in Quran, including when humans are the direct object as in 434
Explains how the authority is notified by 435, and provides perfect logical/sequential coherence
DRB use is clear and simple to implement practically
581-4 provides perfect coherence in terms of marital example
When inserted into 4128-130 provides a complementary practical and coherent solutionIn fact there were more issues in your article. If you begin your own thread for your article I'd be happy to highlight them for you to respond to.
Interestingly, in your work you do not reference www.Quran434.com where you clearly got a lot of information from.
