The Challenge Yet To Be Met
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Logic, I named off three different ones that have similar perceptions.
Many Hindus believe that Brahman is the source of all, and that we are nothing but a piece of Him, not all Hindus are polytheistic, many are Monotheistic, in this sense. Some of the Gnostics believe that by obtaining Gnosis, they can unite with God, their essence that is, after the physical body dies. And the Sufi have very similar writings as well.
I have given you what you need. It doesn't take much to look these things up online. A true truth seeker does not seek the truth in just one book, in just one teaching.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Does that answer the " Predestination" question?
Does God still know the future?
Have you got your answer from the other " perception"? What is it?
That is what I was asking.
Peace.
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If we assume that we are all an essence of God, a piece of Him. That the spiritual goal of life is to return to God through purification of ourselves. Then yes, this would in a way answer the predestination questioning, but we would still need answers, as to how we, as God, know the future. And then Satan would be looked at as the Demi-Urge, or the materialistic world, that holds us back from achieving this goal. And still yet, we would need to know what we, as a piece of God, would achieve from returning to our true selves, to Heaven, to our whole self who would be God.
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And just to throw this out there. The Qur'an does refer to God as "We" quite often.
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Peace Bodhisvasti.
Thank you for that.
I will add some questions to yours
Who are the Angels? The animals? Other creations?
Who has sent the message? And The prophets /messengers?
Who is controlling and ruling all the dominions?
Peace,
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I would say that looking at it from a Gnostic view, it would go like this...
God is the Monad.
Angels are Aeons, emanations of God.
Satan is the Demi-Urge.
The Djinn are the Archons.
The Qur'an would be the direct word from the Monad itself, or through the Aeon Gabriel.
Heaven would be the Pleroma, the spiritual universe, the abode of God and of the totality of the divine powers and emanations.
Humans, unlike animals, I would say, through evolution, are now ready to unite with God, to add to the Pleroma, which creates and sustains the universe. I suppose you could say the meaning to creation would be to realize God, and add to the Pleroma.
A lot of this is conjecture, and if you were to read the beliefs of some Gnostic sects, it wouldn't fit right, as God of the Bible was viewed as the Demi-Urge.
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I think the key answer to the author of the question is the terminology used.
I'm talking about time Past, present and future. and also space.
If we're talking about GOD then these parameters are not included in his domain.
For GOD there is no such a thing as time, space, past present and future.
These all relate to us as a mean of thinking and making decision.
I'm not good with analogies, and many of them some times tends to miss-represent the real issue.I believe the example that we experience to a certain extent is during sleep without a conscious dream.
You have raised a good question, and there isn't a straight answer that include GOD, with time and space.
With GOD there is no before and no after..Best regards.
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I would say that looking at it from a Gnostic view, it would go like this...
God is the Monad.
Angels are Aeons, emanations of God.
Satan is the Demi-Urge.
The Djinn are the Archons.
The Qur'an would be the direct word from the Monad itself, or through the Aeon Gabriel.
Heaven would be the Pleroma, the spiritual universe, the abode of God and of the totality of the divine powers and emanations.
Humans, unlike animals, I would say, through evolution, are now ready to unite with God, to add to the Pleroma, which creates and sustains the universe. I suppose you could say the meaning to creation would be to realize God, and add to the Pleroma.
A lot of this is conjecture, and if you were to read the beliefs of some Gnostic sects, it wouldn't fit right, as God of the Bible was viewed as the Demi-Urge.Peace Bodhisvasti,
Your confusion is understandable, with all the varying definitions of God whispering to you,
you have not been able to make up your mind. Your analogies, comparisons of various religions
has not brought you certainty but doubt. There is only one religion and that is submission
according to Quran but if your journey leads you in another direction that is ok also.Peace O0
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Foralgerian, no matter how you see it, whether God is or isn't outside of time, it still doesn't explain the meaning/point of a creation that has already played out in this Gods mind. It equates creation to a movie.
Hawkninetynine, my varying defininitions of God, my anologies, and my comparisons to other religions has not brought me doubt, but made me a better truth seeker. I want the truth, I want rationality, I want explanations. If your idea of an all-knowing God can't be explained in the traditional sense He is viewed in, then He must be viewed in a whole other way.
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Hawkninetynine, my varying defininitions of God
There is only One.
Hawkninetynine, my comparisons to other religions has not brought me doubt,
lol Isn't doubt exactly what you are expressing?
Hawkninetynine, but made me a better truth seeker.
One's truth seeker is another's folly.
I want the truth, I want rationality, I want explanations.
If you want the truth about Islam then you must read the Quran
If your idea of an all-knowing God can't be explained in the traditional sense He is viewed in, then He must be viewed in a whole other way.
Who's tradition?
Peace O0
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Bodhisvasti
I think it's key issue. because your argument is essentially based on the time factor.
You Say God before created the universe..you are talking according to our time and space reference, as an observer.
It is difficult for us humans to grasp the possibility that there is no such thing as before and after..
We are talking here about a mathematical issue..
This is exactly like trying to question what was God doing before he created us.
We have to admit that God is not an easy issue to grasp and no one knows for certain whether he exists or doesn't..
because the term existence is related to our concept of creation or else.This is equivalent to ask what is the origin of the origin of life?
I understand perfectly your question and your challenge it's not philosophical, but merely mathematical.
It is similar to the concept of infinity and zero.Best regards
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Assalamu Alaykum, everyone.
I am not a hater, I am not trying to attack your religion.
I (and perhaps some other here) don't have any religion, so you don't have anything to attack...
What does this mean you ask? It means everything is automatically pre-determined, no matter what. We have no real choice.
YES
God made Satan, knowing before he made him, all that he would do, meaning God pre-determined Satan, because God did not have to make him that way, knowing how he would end up.
YES
God made a world of suffering, knowing all that would happen, before Creation, making everything pre-determined. God did not have to make a world full of suffering, he made the choice to. Did he have to? No.
YES, suffering and happiness is just a matter of perspective..
Creation is pointless, when you are an all knowing God, because you know all, no matter what.
YES.. from 'human' perspective it's pointless.. as human is an 'objective/goal' oriented beings..
That means God made a world full of suffering.
And happiness as well..
To create evil, knowing what would happen beforehand, makes you evil.
FALSE
When there's no evil there will be no good...Are there such thing as 'evil baby' or 'good baby'?
Nope.. babies are just babies...Are there such thing as 'evil tree' or 'good tree'?
Nope.. trees are just trees..Do we not condemn those on Earth to prison for evil deeds, for making the choice of creating those evil situations? Why is not God condemned then, for making Evil?
Evil shall praise evil and good shall praise good..
It's your choice, but remember He also created good..
As when there's good there will also be evil, otherwise we will not know the difference between those two..It just a matter of perspective.. and choices..
Can anyone meet this challenge and give me peace of mind, so that I may return to being a Muslim?
Don't be a Muslim, yet be a muslim which means accepting God wishes as it is...
Which in turn shall give you peace of mind.."Let Thy will be done on earth as it's in heaven"
-- JesusSalam / Peace
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It is difficult for us humans to grasp the possibility that there is no such thing as before and after..
We are talking here about a mathematical issue..Peace -- yes for more on the mathematics/physics read the works of John Dunne on precognitive dreams
An Experiment with Time (1927), The Serial Universe (1934), and others which explain time being linear is an illusion brought about by consciousness and that past, present, and future are in reality simultaneous.
We experience them sequentially in the conscious state and when in unconscious dream state, the mind is free to roam thus able to see the past, present, and future as if flipping through the pages of a book.
1714 read your book sufficient yourself the day to you reckoner
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I had the same question as you do, and I can tell you that omniscience and free will is reconcilable. Most members of organized religions believe that if they ask God for something, God may answer the prayer. The problem is that God is all-knowing by definition, so if he decided to answer a prayer, that would automatically imply that God didn't have any foresight to expect that request; and if God lacked foresight to expect the future needs of his creation, that would mean that God isn't all-knowing.
Freewill is the ability to choose for yourself. A God that is All-knowing, has no need to interfere with the evolution of his creation; and in order to provide humanity with free will, God chose not to interfere. Some would argue that the Quran says that God controls everything, that everything submits to God, so God must be involved. But because God is all-knowing, he created every conceivable law of nature, in order to lead his creation to its destiny. By not interfering, God left some wiggle room in his laws for humans to navigate through, and the personal choices made within the limits of that wiggle room is free-will.
This religious philosophy is known as Deism. This isn't another religion per se, but its a theory that describes God's role in the Universe.
I've posted an article that addresses the philosophical "problem of evil" argument, where I go into this in a little more detail, but I encourage you to read a little about deism, as opposed to theism.
To see my problem of evil blog post go to http//www.stirringmind.com/blog/addressing-the-problem-of-evil/
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I had the same question as you do, and I can tell you that omniscience and free will is reconcilable. Most members of organized religions believe that if they ask God for something, God may answer the prayer. The problem is that God is all-knowing by definition, so if he decided to answer a prayer, that would automatically imply that God didn't have any foresight to expect that request; and if God lacked foresight to expect the future needs of his creation, that would mean that God isn't all-knowing.
Freewill is the ability to choose for yourself. A God that is All-knowing, has no need to interfere with the evolution of his creation; and in order to provide humanity with free will, God chose not to interfere. Some would argue that the Quran says that God controls everything, that everything submits to God, so God must be involved. But because God is all-knowing, he created every conceivable law of nature, in order to lead his creation to its destiny. By not interfering, God left some wiggle room in his laws for humans to navigate through, and the personal choices made within the limits of that wiggle room is free-will.
This religious philosophy is known as Deism. This isn't another religion per se, but its a theory that describes God's role in the Universe.
I've posted an article that addresses the philosophical "problem of evil" argument, where I go into this in a little more detail, but I encourage you to read a little about deism, as opposed to theism.
To see my problem of evil blog post go to http//www.stirringmind.com/blog/addressing-the-problem-of-evil/
I agree with your points and just feel I want to clarify something if you speak of Deism, we have a totally different ball-game. There is no punishment or reward. There is no intervention on a personal and daily basis. There is no sin or consequence of anything.
In Islam however, we have the principle of a created human with a purpose who can choose to do as told or refuse - at his own peril.
Also, I don't think that "free will" exists in reality. It is an artificial term, invented by religions to provide a theoretical cop-out.
If there is a personal god with reward and punishment and that god has the attribute all-knowing we have precluded free will.
Example
I pick up a pair of sunglasses and try them on. I like them and they fulfill my requirements.I now have a choice
pay for them and keep them on - or - keep them on and walk away without paying. The latter choice will be punished. So far so good.Did god know that I would pay for them? In that case, if I pay I had a choice to not pay, but I took the option of paying and god was right and everybody is happy. But what if I don't pay? God will know this also and punish me.
What happens if god knows I will not pay and will get ready to punish me and I change my mind and pay?
If god only knew I will not pay, I have what you call "free will" as I could do as I pleased and pay, without anyone knowing about it. And I will get punished because god only knew I did not pay. He is not all-knowing.
If god did know from the beginning I would change my mind he knows everything and is all-knowing, but I don't have free will. Or will I still be punished?
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I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean to replace Islam with Deism for I am very much a Muslim. I do however believe that the truth can be found from a variety of sources. I believe that God set the wheels in motion, created laws to govern almost everything creation needed to survive, and necessarily stayed hands off in order for us to maintain our ability to choose our destiny for ourselves.
Additionally, I do believe that choice exists in reality, for the only thing that you know for sure when you make a choice, is that you made one. What's more real or true than first hand experience? Many people are willing to accept second-hand information as the truth, but they are uncomfortable with accepting their own perception of reality. Choice exists regardless of consequence, because what you are choosing between is instant gratification, and long-term gratification. You have the choice to determine which one is more important to you, and the consequences of your actions are necessarily based on the level of importance you placed on each of the options.
I'm assuming you have some sort of connection to Islam, and I think I have something that can help you open your mind up to other ways of thinking about Islam beyond what's even on this site. This site is great, but I took what I learned from here, and I opened my mind up to applications beyond religion itself.
Below is a link to an amazing book that I read a few months ago, and believe me when I say that it blew my mind. You may not agree with everything but that's okay because no one has all the answers, but I will tell you that this book explained the Quranic message in the most reasonable and logical way possible. Its so good in fact, that I think people of all faiths can apply the ideas to their beliefs. The gentlemen who wrote the book had a PHD in Philosophy if I remember right, and his approach is very scientific. He avoids asking you to take unreasonably leaps of faith, and instead explains things as logically as possible.
http//www.stirringmind.com/library/articles/
If you read the book, and like it; get back to me and tell me what you think, because I would really like to discuss it with someone else who finds it fascinating. You can contact me on here, or through my site listed above if you want to tell me what you think
Good luck on your journey towards the truth.
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I understand what you are saying, but I didn't mean to replace Islam with Deism for I am very much a Muslim. I do however believe that the truth can be found from a variety of sources. I believe that God set the wheels in motion, created laws to govern almost everything creation needed to survive, and necessarily stayed hands off in order for us to maintain our ability to choose our destiny for ourselves.
Do you think we can go one level deeper?
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?Additionally, I do believe that choice exists in reality, for the only thing that you know for sure when you make a choice, is that you made one. What's more real or true than first hand experience? Many people are willing to accept second-hand information as the truth, but they are uncomfortable with accepting their own perception of reality. Choice exists regardless of consequence, because what you are choosing between is instant gratification, and long-term gratification. You have the choice to determine which one is more important to you, and the consequences of your actions are necessarily based on the level of importance you placed on each of the options.
Well formulated. My thinking as well.
I'm assuming you have some sort of connection to Islam, and I think I have something that can help you open your mind up to other ways of thinking about Islam beyond what's even on this site. This site is great, but I took what I learned from here, and I opened my mind up to applications beyond religion itself.
Well, there comes a time when you need to "close your mind". If you have researched and determined something, you need to take a stand and stop yielding to others.
Below is a link to an amazing book that I read a few months ago, and believe me when I say that it blew my mind. You may not agree with everything but that's okay because no one has all the answers, but I will tell you that this book explained the Quranic message in the most reasonable and logical way possible. Its so good in fact, that I think people of all faiths can apply the ideas to their beliefs. The gentlemen who wrote the book had a PHD in Philosophy if I remember right, and his approach is very scientific. He avoids asking you to take unreasonably leaps of faith, and instead explains things as logically as possible.
http//www.stirringmind.com/library/articles/
If you read the book, and like it; get back to me and tell me what you think, because I would really like to discuss it with someone else who finds it fascinating. You can contact me on here, or through my site listed above if you want to tell me what you think
Good luck on your journey towards the truth.
Can you tell me just one thing about this book that makes it amazing? I found only standard Muslim apologetics with the usual misinformation and emotional claims. But then I did not read all of it and in detail, I just skimmed over it.
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Do you think we can go one level deeper?
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?Well formulated. My thinking as well.
Well, there comes a time when you need to "close your mind". If you have researched and determined something, you need to take a stand and stop yielding to others.
Can you tell me just one thing about this book that makes it amazing? I found only standard Muslim apologetics with the usual misinformation and emotional claims. But then I did not read all of it and in detail, I just skimmed over it.
Yes I can. I found this book amazing because it approached the Quran and Islam from a logical way. The author doesn't try to disprove the Quran, but instead tries to prove it by using reason, and not superstition and miracles. It starts by explaining what makes you, you; using modern psychology including the works of Freud. He explains what the Angels are in a logical way, which doesn't require you to believe in another supernatural being. He uses reason in order to determine what heaven and hell really are (I found this to be well written, and intriguing). Basically, its written from the perspective of a Muslim who's sort of a deist, who believes that Islam can be explained with science and nature, without looking to miracles and superstitions to help with explanations.
This guy is Pakistani, and if you look at a picture of this guy you would think he's a Mullah. When you read his words however, you realize that he's a lot more sophisticated than a common mullah. I was pleasantly surprised and proud, that such intelligent and open-minded work was the product of someone from my Dad's culture.
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Yes I can. I found this book amazing because it approached the Quran and Islam from a logical way. The author doesn't try to disprove the Quran, but instead tries to prove it by using reason, and not superstition and miracles. It starts by explaining what makes you, you; using modern psychology including the works of Freud. He explains what the Angels are in a logical way, which doesn't require you to believe in another supernatural being. He uses reason in order to determine what heaven and hell really are (I found this to be well written, and intriguing). Basically, its written from the perspective of a Muslim who's sort of a deist, who believes that Islam can be explained with science and nature, without looking to miracles and superstitions to help with explanations.
This guy is Pakistani, and if you look at a picture of this guy you would think he's a Mullah. When you read his words however, you realize that he's a lot more sophisticated than a common mullah. I was pleasantly surprised and proud, that such intelligent and open-minded work was the product of someone from my Dad's culture.
We still have 3 questions pending
What is truth?
What are the sources?
God created everything and evolution took over, both in matter and organic creatures?I read this properly now and put it down on page 9. It is atrocious! He claims science can't give us values so we need to look for alternatives, which he declares are found in the Koran. He says humans can't think, therefore god.
Come on! This is pretty poor. How he gets from science to emotional and cultural values is beyond me and he never even shows how he gets from "an alternative" to Allah and the Koran.He claims that Muhammad "had made fool-proof arrangements for its transcription and preservation, and before he died it had been fully compiled in the form of a book", something we know is not true.
Then he claims that "it is an historically established fact that not a single letter of the Book has been altered in the course of the fourteen centuries of its existence", something we also know is not true.
Then he continues that it contains "ever-abiding universal values, and offers enlightenment and perfect guidance in regard to all aspects of human life", which we know is totally false as almost all aspects of life and the civilisations and their behavioural patterns have totally changed.He even goes into ancient superstitions of Earth being created in 2 ages, firm mountains, thunder and many others which we know today is false.
So, in summary, I am a bit surprised because you seemed a level-headed and rational person and yet you let yourself get taken in by old-fashioned apologetics.