Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

This 'discussion' has become very unpleasant. The insults outnumber the substance.

Dawn

Maha

Fallen Angel

Lemme just end this polyandry thing, the verse Noon provided does in fact quite directly speaks against polyandry. In 423, God starts by 'Prohibited upon you are..' and continues to list all women prohibited for me, note that it is the men being addressed, then, 424 continues it, due to it starting with a Waw, or 'And', and states, 'The Muhsanat except for Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. As per 424, all Muhsanat are prohibited except Ma Malakat Aymanukum. Muhsanat in Arabic comes from HaSn, which means, 'Fort', and Muhsanat is the feminine plural which means, 'Fortified/Protected females', or in our case, 'Women'. There are only two possible interpretations, both of which are valid, for this term; Women protected by means of marriage and Women protected by means of remaining chaste. Not only are classical Arabic dictionaries involved in this, but even several instances where 'HaSn' has been used as a verb, show what it can possibly mean. The next part is 'Illa Ma Malakat Aymanukum', I'm sure you have come across this term, as there have been serious discussions on this in the past, and even I started a thread on this.

Salam sister. Hope you are doing fine. Mohsenaat means chaste. What has that to do with marriage? o There are plenty of chaste single ladies out there

Yes I know MMA is interpreated by sunnis as being sex slaves. However, Quran tells us that women also have MMA.

I agree with you that MMA is a spouse. Thank you for sharing your understanding. Let me also give you my understanding of the verse 4.24 We al moh7senaat men al nisa2 ela ma malakat aymanakom kataba allah lakom we a7hal lakom... = And the chaste among the NISA (except for what you already has) has allah prescribed to you..

Peace

Maha

Release

You should tell your mom that you need to called upon by your father's name. Unless, she does not know his name. Really, you need to tell her that this important for you. God says that we will be called upon by our father's names. I'm sure she has a lovely name, but it's not the correct thing to do.

I stopped reading your post right there. I demand that you talk to me with respect.

Released

Peace )

Release

I stopped reading your post right there. I demand that you talk to me with respect.

I'm not sure how that was disrespectful? I thought you would be grateful to me. Some women who are victims of rape, do not know their assailants name. As a result, they must give their child their own family name. This is understandable. Respect is something that needs to be earned. If you don't feel that you're being respected, then perhaps that is something you need to reflect on. All the best with that.

Released

Peace Maha,

Chaste, eh? I'm not sure if you know this or not....drum roll...................................all women are expected to be chaste!! Another shocking aspect.......even married women! See, even married women are expected to be chaste. So, let's break it down now.

Married women must be chaste
Unmarried women are to be chaste
Elderly women who widows or divorcees are to be chaste

Let's go even further...

Married men are to be chaste
Unmarried men are to be chaste
Elderly men who are widows or divorcees are to be chaste

So, pretty much, everyone has to be chaste. Looks like the entire world is chaste.

Now, what does that leave to marry?

The unchaste?

This word is very obviously pertaining to either "protected women under an oath of another" or "married women".

Using a broad umbrella term such as "chaste" does no zero justice, nor does it answer any questions. If anything, all it does is put a weird twist on verses, so that one individual can achieve their agenda elsewhere in the Quran. God watches everything. Be careful, Maha.

Fallen Angel

Salam sister. Hope you are doing fine. Mohsenaat means chaste. What has that to do with marriage? There are plenty of chaste single ladies out there

Yes I know MMA is interpreated by sunnis as being sex slaves. However, Quran tells us that women also have MMA.

I agree with you that MMA is a spouse. Thank you for sharing your understanding. Let me also give you my understanding of the verse 4.24 We al moh7senaat men al nisa2 ela ma malakat aymanakom kataba allah lakom we a7hal lakom... = And the chaste among the NISA (except for what you already has) has allah prescribed to you..

Peace

unknownuser

Fallen Angel

Salam sister. Hope you are doing fine. Mohsenaat means chaste. What has that to do with marriage? o There are plenty of chaste single ladies out there

Yes I know MMA is interpreated by sunnis as being sex slaves. However, Quran tells us that women also have MMA.

I agree with you that MMA is a spouse. Thank you for sharing your understanding. Let me also give you my understanding of the verse 4.24 We al moh7senaat men al nisa2 ela ma malakat aymanakom kataba allah lakom we a7hal lakom... = And the chaste among the NISA (except for what you already has) has allah prescribed to you..

Peace

Um, don't want to sound rude or something, but, ahem, I'm a guy D, but I guess that's our nature, I've noticed that if you're a guy, automatically you'd assume any anonymous person to be a man, same happens if you're a girl. Hope you're doing fine too.

I'm glad you agree with my interpretation on MMA, this gives me a LOT of hope, you have no idea, thank you )

And as for the Muhsanat thing, I'm not sure if you read the whole of my post or not, but I explained that Muhsanat doesn't mean chaste, it means protected or fortified, big difference, and I explained what are the two possible interpretations of protected too. If you want, I can also give you references where HaSn, the root of Muhsanat, has been used as a verb, in the context of getting married.

As for your interpretation of 424, I am afraid I'll have to disagree with it for two reasons

The conjunction 'And' makes the verse a dependent clause of the previous verse which was an independent clause stating the prohibited women, hence, this must be a continuation of it, it has to be linked to it one or another.
Although the first point renders this interpretation inappropriate, even if we do take it the way you translate it, then can you give a reasonable interpretation of the 'Except for MMA', because the way I understand what you're saying is, that Allah says that He has prescribed for us chaste women, except for what we already have, I'm not able to comprehend this part, whats the need for saying 'Except for what you have'?

And I dunno what transliteration are you using, but that is a very very incorrect transliteration, the word to word breakdown of this verse is Wa AlMuhsanat min AnNisa Illa Ma Malakat Aymanukum kitab Allah Alaykum

Note I wrote in the second quote I provided, '...and Women protected by means of remaining chaste...', perhaps I used the wrong words, lemme rephrase it to express what I wanted to say, '..and Women who self protect themselves..'

unknownuser

Dawngorgeous

I agree with you, but we can't let this thread die, we just can't, it'll come as a great depression attack on me if this thread ends without mutual agreement and peace, we must control ourselves and be honest. And thank you for providing me with the reference, I'll reply to your points soon.

Released

Peace Dawn,

This is natural. Most heated debates become a little unpleasant. For example, it took an unpleasant turn when I was accused of being a hypocrite and having a fetish for married men. See, these are very unpleasant things. However, I've decided to overcome this, and stick to the discussion on hand.

Another thing, if you take notice, the sectarian forums are far worse. However, I appreciate that the majority of us here, have not stooped to that level of rudeness and hatred.

Maha

fallen angel

m, don't want to sound rude or something, but, ahem, I'm a guy , but I guess that's our nature, I've noticed that if you're a guy, automatically you'd assume any anonymous person to be a man, same happens if you're a girl. Hope you're doing fine too.

rotfl lol that is true!

And as for the Muhsanat thing, I'm not sure if you read the whole of my post or not, but I explained that Muhsanat doesn't mean chaste, it means protected or fortified, big difference, and I explained what are the two possible interpretations of protected too. If you want, I can also give you references where HaSn, the root of Muhsanat, has been used as a verb, in the context of getting married. If you missed that part of my post, here it is again

yes but thats the same thing. Chaste/protected from lewdness. So you shall get married to someone who doesnt commit lewdness.

The conjunction 'And' makes the verse a dependent clause of the previous verse which was an independent clause stating the prohibited women, hence, this must be a continuation of it, it has to be linked to it one or another.

Wrong. The verse before it was finished and a new sentence began. Its continues in the way that God has in the earlier verse just told you who not to marry and now he is telling you actually who you should actually marry.

Although the first point renders this interpretation inappropriate, even if we do take it the way you translate it, then can you give a reasonable interpretation of the 'Except for MMA', because the way I understand what you're saying is, that Allah says that He has prescribed for us chaste women, except for what we already have, I'm not able to comprehend this part, whats the need for saying 'Except for what you have'?

Yes if you already have a spouse then there is no need to run after chaste women Thats quite logical. Whats the problem in it?

And I dunno what transliteration are you using, but that is a very very incorrect transliteration,

I dont use any translation at all. I am an arabic speaker.

and can safely say that the word to word breakdown of this verse is Wa AlMuhsanat min AnNisa Illa Ma Malakat Aymanukum kitab Allah Alaykum

Yes that is the verse we are talking about as well.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace brother. Thank you for the verse. That makes sense. However, would you like to explain to me if its the 'laHONa' in the verse which makes you think that we are talking about females who leave behind wealth? And why is the azwajkom in plural?

Peace sister. Yes lahunna/for them (f. plural) use context and address is to whole community therefore plural.

If it so, ]it seems like a woman can only have 2 husbands as they have to divide her wealth half

It does not work with 2 husbands either; nothing left for parents.

Example woman leaves $6 inheritance, she has no child
husband-1 = 1/2 (no child) = $3
husband-2 = 1/2 (no child) = $3
distribution two husbands = $6
distribution to the parents = $0?

but as I wrote to you in an early post as well in the inheritence topic, it seems like the inhertence in quran are only guidelines, and people are free to choose who they want to give their wealth to. I Mean, what if a wife wants to give all her wealth to her parents or daughter after her death, and doesnt want to give anything to her husbands? Is she FORCED to give half of her wealth to one of her husbands if she doesnt want?
Or parents who have 3 sons and 1 daughter and want their daughter to inherit all their wealth, whats wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that; not forced; distributions are "from" (subtract in math lingo) after a will.

412
and for you half what left azwajukum/your spouses...
from after a will they made in it or judgment

walahunna/and for them (feminine) the fourth from what you left ...
from after a will you made in it or judgment

If she leaves 100% to parents or daughter there is nothing left for the husband.
If she dies in an accident or leaves no will or a partial one then inheritance laws.

And what do women with 3 husbands in tibet do if they want to follow quranic guidlines for inheritence?

Qur'an is applied consistently regardless of location, $6 or 6 Tibetan shell money.

Released

fallen angel

rotfl lol that is true!
yes but thats the same thing. Chaste/protected from lewdness. So you shall get married to someone who doesnt commit lewdness.

How can someone marry from the unchaste? Which person in their right mind if going to purposely enact a proposal of commitment to a person who does not wish to be committed in a relationship? Again, the logic factor is missing here. God does not speak illogically.

Wrong. The verse before it was finished and a new sentence began. Its continues in the way that God has in the earlier verse just told you who not to marry and now he is telling you actually who you should actually marry.

Yes, and God is going to state the obvious, why exactly?

Yes if you already have a spouse then there is no need to run after chaste women Thats quite logical. Whats the problem in it?

Nobody is running after anyone. Verse 4.3 talks about taking drastic measures in desperate times to ensure the well-being of the children.

I dont use any translation at all. I am an arabic speaker.

The language of the Quran is not in standard modern Arabic. It's written in classical Arabic with a serious slant in the direction of the Hijaz region. I doubt you spent years in the Saudi and Jordanian desert learning their language, and even then, you wouldn't be able to master the language. That's why there is so much research being conducted.

How do you think the Quran was preserved? The book is to be recited, and it remained memorized within the hearts and minds of thousands of people. Not everyone back then walked around with a mini version of it in their shirt pocket. Its divine structure allows it to be memorized more easily than other scriptures. When you've memorized something, then you are able to keep a mental file of where certain verses are placed, and how to locate them. He is also here to learn and derive guidance. Otherwise, why would he bother bouncing ideas off us?

Oh, and here is a perfect example of how respect needs to be earned. You were nothing but condescending in your post. Learn to speak respectfully, and then that respect will be returned to you.

Yes that is the verse we are talking about as well.

Maha

Brother Noon

It does not work with 2 husbands either; nothing left for parents.

Example woman leaves $6 inheritance, she has no child
husband-1 = 1/2 (no child) = $3
husband-2 = 1/2 (no child) = $3
distribution two husbands = $6
distribution to the parents = $0?

It does not work with one husband, 4 wives and many children either. Just take a look And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have a child then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. 412

If he has no child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third;

One husband, 4 wives, and he has a mother. How can all four wives get one quarter, then there will be left nothing for his mother?

Now one husband, 4 wives, 13 children. Can you tell me how much these wives will get?

And do you think its fair that a man with a single wife only gets one quarter of what her husbands leaves behind?

Nothing wrong with that; not forced; distributions are "from" (subtract in math lingo) after a will.

I totally agree with this as I have seen examples of this in real life. Back in Pakistan my wealthy neighbour had two sons and one daughter but he wrote in his will that all the wealth shall be inherit by his only daughter only as she was a very responsible lady. The sons on the other hand were spoiled and used to waste their money on alcohol and parties etc. so their father didnt seemed them fit to handle his wealth after him. So yes, the father didnt followed the inheritence in the quran but taking his circumstances into consideration I believe he was in all his right to transfer his wealth to the daughter alone.

So we agree that Quranic inheritence should be applied in cases where another will isnt written.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Brother Noon

It does not work with one husband, 4 wives and many children either. Just take a look And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have a child then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. 412

If he has no child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third;

One husband, 4 wives, and he has a mother. How can all four wives get one quarter, then there will be left nothing for his mother?

Peace sister. Yes it does work. I've explained this in the inheritance thread here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg311172#msg311172

case 4 wives, mother

411...
and to their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left if kana/is (masculine) to person walad/son (i.e. if to person male child)
so if not was to person waladun/offspring/child born and heirs person?s parents (if only parents) so to his mother the third

if son = false; if only parents = false; mother's share unstated/variable

412 ... and to them (f. plural) the fourth from what you left if not was to you waladun/child/born

no child = true; wives = 1/4
1 - 1/4 wives (1/16 each) = 3/4 mother (mother's share variable)

Now one husband, 4 wives, 13 children. Can you tell me how much these wives will get?

I'll take it that at least 1 child is male; therefore...

412 so if kana/is (masculine) to you walad/son (male child/born) so to them (feminine plural) the eight

1 - 1/8 wives (1/32 each) = 3/8 children (21 ratio male to female)

And do you think its fair that a man with a single wife only gets one quarter of what her husbands leaves behind?

What I or you think is fair is irrelevant and not always the single wife gets 1/4 fixed amount.

1 daughter 1/2 + 1/2 wife = 1
3 daughters 2/3 + 1/3 wife = 1
3/4 mother/father + 1/4 wife = 1
1/6 mother/father + 1/8 wife + 17/24 son/s = 1

I totally agree with this as I have seen examples of this in real life. Back in Pakistan my wealthy neighbour had two sons and one daughter but he wrote in his will that all the wealth shall be inherit by his only daughter only as she was a very responsible lady. The sons on the other hand were spoiled and used to waste their money on alcohol and parties etc. so their father didnt seemed them fit to handle his wealth after him. So yes, the father didnt followed the inheritence in the quran but taking his circumstances into consideration I believe he was in all his right to transfer his wealth to the daughter alone.

So we agree that Quranic inheritence should be applied in cases where another will isnt written.

Yes if no will or a partial will; inheritance are to arbitrate arguments.

411
... from after a will have made in it or judgment

412
... from after a will they made in it or judgment
... from after a will you made in it or judgment
... from after a will is recommended in it or judgment
not harmful a will from The God and The God Knowing Forbearing

Peace

Maha

Noon

Correct me if I am wrong, brother.

Peace sister. Yes it does work. I've explained this in the inheritance thread here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604035.msg311172#msg311172

case 4 wives, mother

411...
and to their parents to each one from them the sixth from what left if kana/is (masculine) to person walad/son (i.e. if to person male child)
so if not was to person waladun/offspring/child born and heirs person?s parents (if only parents) so to his mother the third

if son = false; if only parents = false; mother's share unstated/variable

412 ... and to them (f. plural) the fourth from what you left if not was to you waladun/child/born

no child = true; wives = 1/4
1 - 1/4 wives (1/16 each) = 3/4 mother (mother's share variable)

A husband with 4 wives and one mother leaves 10 million dollars.

wife 1 2.5 million
wife 2 2.5 million
wife 3. 2.5 million
wife 4 2.5 million
Mother 0

Yes if no will or a partial will; inheritance are to arbitrate arguments.

A wife with 4 husbands would leave her will according to her wishes.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Correct me if I am wrong, brother.
A husband with 4 wives and one mother leaves 10 million dollars.

wife 1 2.5 million
wife 2 2.5 million
wife 3. 2.5 million
wife 4 2.5 million
Mother 0

Peace Maha, should be thus...

412 and to them the fourth from what you left if not was to you waladun/offspring/child
1/4 wives = $2.5m ($625k each wife)
3/4 mother = $7.5m

A wife with 4 husbands would leave her will according to her wishes.

Language of Qur'an doesn't allow it to work with more than 1 husband and it needs to work with a will, a partial will, or no will otherwise it's pointless to have inheritances verses.

Lastly, what you are proposing is that 4 men can all simultaneously be married to the same 4 women or even unlimited the whole community married to each other!

Peace

Maha

Brother noon

412 and to them the fourth from what you left if not was to you waladun/offspring/child
1/4 wives = $2.5m ($625k each wife)
3/4 mother = $7.5m

If each wife gets 625K then they arent getting the fourth of what he left. Then its one wife who can get the fourth (2.5 million) and she has to share what she has with the other wives.

Language of Qur'an doesn't allow it to work with more than 1 husband and it needs to work with a will, a partial will, or no will otherwise it's pointless to have inheritances verses.

explain this please

Lastly, what you are proposing is that 4 men can all simultaneously be married to the same 4 women or even unlimited the whole community married to each other!

If 4 is the limit for husbands and wives, then the whole comminity wont be able to marry each other. And if a bunch of women can share the same man then why is it a problem if a bunch of people share each other? After all 4 women sharing one man is also a group-marriage.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Sister Maha,

If each wife gets 625K then they arent getting the fourth of what he left. Then its one wife who can get the fourth (2.5 million) and she has to share what she has with the other wives.

explain this please

412
and for you (each individual; 2nd person) half what left your spouses
and for them (i.e. all wives; 3rd person) the fourth from what you left

If 4 is the limit for husbands and wives, then the whole comminity wont be able to marry each other. And if a bunch of women can share the same man then why is it a problem if a bunch of people share each other? After all 4 women sharing one man is also a group-marriage.

Show where 4 is a limit?

Perhaps think through all possibilities e.g. woman is married and how would next guy marry her?

There is no problem; none are forced; similar to how some have a problem with cousin marriage.

3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful

3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful

Peace

Maha

Noon
412
and for you (each individual; 2nd person) half what left your spouses
and for them (i.e. all wives; 3rd person) the fourth from what you left

Wrong. is plural. So the verse says and for you all(plural) is half of what is left from your pairs.
And for them is the fourth what you (plural you) left.

Show where 4 is a limit

You said that the limit of spouses were four right?
g.
woman is married and how would next guy marry her?

Just like a woman would marry a married man. What's the problem here bro?

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Wrong. is plural. So the verse says and for you all(plural) is half of what is left from your pairs.
And for them is the fourth what you (plural you) left.

You said that the limit of spouses were four right?
g.
Just like a woman would marry a married man. What's the problem here bro?

Peace

Peace Maha,

?And for you? ? address is to every individual not ?and for you all collectively.?
Otherwise the entire male community would get 1/2 if no child and 1/4 if son.

412 and for you (all individually not collectively) half what left your spouse?s

Whereas for wives it is collectively if more than one and we know verses point to multiple wives.

412 and for them (collectively not each individually) the fourth from what you left

Again, what you promote is unlimited women and men all married to each other.
Hence renders verses pointless on marriage, divorce, waiting, inheritance, etc...

Peace

Released

Peace Noon waalqalami,

The biggest indicator for me besides 4.24, is that an interim period cannot be fulfilled at the advent of divorce, if a woman is married to other men at that time. She will continue to engage in sexual relations with other men, and this could defeat the purpose of that waiting time.

Oh, and here is some FYI for all who are interested Paternity tests aren't always reliable.

http//www.dna-geneticconnections.com/dna_accuracy.html

http//www.truthaboutdeception.com/community-features/ask-an-expert/questions-by-topic/relationship-issues/867-how-accurate-is-paternity-testing.html

No test out there is 100% accurate. I suppose we'll just go ahead and mess up a child's life anyway, by utilizing a test, that has the potential of being wrong. Oh, and this test is not cheap by any means. Wonder where all that money for the test is going to come from... hmm