Where did "wudu" come from??
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Peace all,
So now comes the question If the Quran never states the word wudu or ablution in the first place, where the heck did this word come from? What's the history behind it?
may be from here;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8250.0
However i would strongly envisage the use of soap and hot water before doing wudu- especially when coming from the toilet, or you could be making a mockery of cleanliness.
peace
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As with everything else, all religious practices came through Abraham, then Moses (he was the only one with who God ever spoke!), and through the Torah and Judaic tradition!
Washing hands, feet, face; rinsing mouth before prayer ( ם
Hebrew Rechitzah, Arabic WuduThe Talmud requires a person to wash his hands before prayer.
Peace, brother,
No disrespect, and please forgive me for being blunt, but you want me to follow the Jewish Talmud?
In the link you posted, it ends with
Thus a Muslim today, washing his hands three times, is doing it in remembrance of the Temple of Solomon.
The Temple of Solomon??? What happened there?
2101 And when a messenger came to them from God, authenticating what was with them, a group of those who had already received the Book placed the Book of God behind their backs as if they did not know.
2102 And they followed what the devils recited regarding the kingship of Solomon. Solomon did not reject, but it was the devils who rejected by teaching people magic, and teaching them what was sent down on the two angels in Babylon, Haroot and Maroot. They did not teach anyone until they would say "We are a test, so do not lose faith!" Thus they teach what can separate between a person and his mate; but they cannot harm anyone except with the permission of God. And they learn what harms them and does not benefit them, and they have known that he who purchases such has no place in the Hereafter. Miserable indeed is what they purchased with their souls if only they knew!
2103 And had they believed and been righteous, it would have brought them a recompense with God which is far better if only they knew!So you want me to follow the people who would rather learn about what harms them and doesn't benefit them?
Here's something that talks about the Talmud
http//embracingthecontradiction.org/Talmud.htm
It quote things DIRECTLY from the Talmud. It is the prime source of what created Hadith in the first place. And you want me to follow it? When I've already rejected Hadith?
Don't know if these two posts will solidify your opinion about wudu/salat or not, but this creeped me out
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.msg237667#msg237667
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.msg237909#msg237909
Are we supposed to be following the masses because everyone ?just did it?? Why did you bother to turn to Quran alone, then?
So where did the Jewish ?Rechitzah? come from? Why do the Arabs call it ?wudu? when it can't be found in the Quran?
The only thing I've seen so far in terms of the source of ?ritual purification? is from either a pagan site, or Zoroastrianism. Both I reject just like I do Talmud and Hadith. Just in case you'd like to know, here's a short summary about the beliefs of Zoroastrianism
http//www.zoroastrianism.cc/universal_religion.html
Please don't provide me with falsehood to try and say that I need to do ?wudu?.
Thank you for the history, though. May peace be upon you.
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Peace.
Thus with minor differences, the Rabbinic and Islamic custom of washing before prayer parallel each other.
There doesn't exist such a thing as 'ablution before prayer'.
- And if my servants ask you about me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to me. So let them respond to me and believe in me that they may be guided.
Abdelilah
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Peace Inq,
So in sum keep yourself clean and fresh whenever you can.
You summed it up nicely.
And another question I have is am I supposed to use water every time I use the toilet? Or just after defecating? What's the arabic root for that word? Ok, that I could've looked up myself but my eyes are so strained right now.
Then why these questions? Don't be like the people of Moses in 267-71.
Abdelilah
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may be from here;
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8250.0
However i would strongly envisage the use of soap and hot water before doing wudu- especially when coming from the toilet, or you could be making a mockery of cleanliness.
peace
Very interesting post, bro. It was very thorough and informative. (And Bukhari was Iranian, wha?) I learned quite a few things from it.
And I agree with you that soap is important! Haha. The same with some of the people who posted on this forum
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598011.msg195896#msg195896How come you say wash with soap before wudu? What strengthened your belief that wudu is required and/or is a spiritual purification when the Quran doesn't mention it?
Peace.
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Peace Inq,
You summed it up nicely.
Then why these questions? Don't be like the people of Moses in 267-71.
Abdelilah
Lol. TRUE! Thanks and peace. sun
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To answer your question It came from men. Another innovation of men is what I am starting to think as like you I am in the process of discovering that salat is not this ritualistic prayer.
Putting dirt over you when you don't have water. You really believe that is from God?
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To answer your question It came from men. Another innovation of men is what I am starting to think as like you I am in the process of discovering that salat is not this ritualistic prayer.
Putting dirt over you when you don't have water. You really believe that is from God?
I hear that a certain kind of "earth" can be clean. Think of salt deposits and such. During my search for "wudu" in the forums, I came across this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.msg275854#msg275854
What do you think about this? Perhaps the dirt/clean earth part may make more sense?
There are other types of "clean dirt" that you may already know of
Diatomaceous Earth
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earthSassolite/Boric Acid
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boric_acidAnd salt of course is a big one. Why do people go crazy over Dead Sea Mineral facials?
Peace! yay
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So what you are saying is that God is referring to "clean" dirt in 56? Is that people's interpretation?
What if a guy can't find water or any clean dirt, then what is he to do? Does God specify that?
Do you mean to tell me that a guy is supposed to cleanse himself of this clean dirt 5 (or 3) times a day if he has no water? Any kind of dirt on a guy with facial hair, help me to understand how so cleansing it would be? Has any guy tried it? And this is what God wants a guy to do?
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How come you say wash with soap before wudu? What strengthened your belief that wudu is required and/or is a spiritual purification when the Quran doesn't mention it?
Peace.
I just thought if we can't convince people of the futility of wudu, i suppose giving a good advice is rewarding - using soap is one .........
but wudu and all them other things nope
I am happy there are so many people using there mind to find out things, rather then being followers , Thanks.
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To answer your question It came from men. Another innovation of men is what I am starting to think as like you I am in the process of discovering that salat is not this ritualistic prayer.
Putting dirt over you when you don't have water. You really believe that is from God?
Are you saying that the Holy Qur'an comes from men (humans)? ???
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Are you saying that the Holy Qur'an comes from men (humans)? ???
No.
People translate the Koran incorrectly but are so convinced that they are right that they will not see it any other way. Hey, if you want to think that it was God who said to "wash" your face with dirt that's your thing. Well you have millions here who allege that God commanded a woman to cover herself head to toe, listen to people who supposedly heard or saw prophet Muhammed, and much more.
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No.
People translate the Koran incorrectly but are so convinced that they are right that they will not see it any other way. Hey, if you want to think that it was God who said to "wash" your face with dirt that's your thing. Well you have millions here who allege that God commanded a woman to cover herself head to toe, listen to people who supposedly heard or saw prophet Muhammed, and much more.
Did I ask you to report about other people? No.
I asked you what you meant by your post. Thanx for the answer, butWe have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
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So what you are saying is that God is referring to "clean" dirt in 56? Is that people's interpretation?
What if a guy can't find water or any clean dirt, then what is he to do? Does God specify that?
Do you mean to tell me that a guy is supposed to cleanse himself of this clean dirt 5 (or 3) times a day if he has no water? Any kind of dirt on a guy with facial hair, help me to understand how so cleansing it would be? Has any guy tried it? And this is what God wants a guy to do?
Peace,
I would assume that if someone lives in a dry climate where water was scarce, there would be some kind of mineral deposit with cleansing properties. But perhaps there could be another interpretation of this word rather than "clean earth".
What's your perspective on this part of the verse, then? What do you believe it means? Do you have any new insight on some possibilities?
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I just thought if we can't convince people of the futility of wudu, i suppose giving a good advice is rewarding - using soap is one .........
but wudu and all them other things nope
Haha/ Yea when soap was mentioned 'before wudu', I thought the same thing - that this 'wudu' thing is pretty futile. I just wanted to know why he came to the conclusion that making wudu was still plausible, especially after reading the link he posted.
Peace! yay
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Did I ask you to report about other people? No.
I asked you what you meant by your post. Thanx for the answer, butWe have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human being is the most argumentative creature.
He also says 577 Say "O people of the Book, do not overstep in your system other than the truth, and do not follow the desires of a people who have been misguided before, and they misguide many; and they strayed from the right path."
73 Follow what was sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!
1035 Say "Are there any of those whom you set up as partners who can guide to the truth?" Say "God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or he who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge?"
1036 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.6112 And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet mankind and Jinn devils to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
6116 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.All we're trying to do is make sure that we're understanding the Quran in the way it's supposed to be understood.
2121 Those to whom We gave the Book, they recite it as it truthfully deserves to be recited; they believe in it. As for those who disbelieve in it, they are the losers.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for.
That's all.
Peace. )
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Ok let's look at 56 step by step and try to make some sense of the translation. At the end of this verse, two things are made clear....
- God does not want to impose hardship on us.
- God wants to purify us
You agree?
First who is God addressing. starts out with 'o believers' (meaning men and women believers) and then switches to addressing a man. when I read this verse, I started out thinking oh God is talking to me and then....Hmm, ok He is talking to a guy. so God tells a guy to put dirt on his face and hands before he stands up for prayer. Now how about the women believers? Per this verse, tayammum is only for guys? If you say it is for both then my question is why would God start out with "oh believers" and then switch to the guys specifically if He meant both believing men and women should do this tayammum?
We are to understand that "purify" in the context of the verse as it is translated means physical purification. Now, let's see if this makes sense after what God has commanded us to do in this verse.
Would you consider putting dirt (may it be dirty dirt or clean dirt) on a guy with facial hair (keep in mind it is Sunna for a guy to grow a beard) to be a cleansing or purifying act? First help me to understand this. Applying dirt on a guy's face and hand is purifying how? Having dirt on your beard is purifying? When you handle dirt, you can get dirt under your nails. Do you consider this to be purifying and cleansing to have dirt under your nails?
How does wiping your face and hand with dirt render you physically pure? Help me to understand that. From this verse, we are to conclude that answering the call of nature renders you unclean. you have to do wudhu with water before standing up for your salat if you went to the toilet. In every Muslim household toilet, you have water to clean your private parts otherwise you are considered unclean. If you don't have the water, according to this verse, God tells you that before you stand for prayer, you "purify" yourself by putting dirt on your face and hands. How does wiping your face and hand with dirt render you clean from going to the bathroom? Your privates are still dirty - aren't they? I don't get that. do you?
Ok so I go the bathroom and I have no water. After urinating or defecating, I leave the toilet totally dirty from that or I wipe myself with whatever is available - cloth, paper, leaf, stone, etc. Too gross not to wipe. So, I wipe but I am unclean. Being that I am a girl, according to this verse can you tell me what I am supposed to do?
Before I go any further, let me stop here and let's first answer these questions, addressing these points and come to an understanding. Let's see if these translations which majority accept as being accurate are indeed the right translations and if they really make sense.
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You asked a question
Are you saying that the Holy Qur'an comes from men (humans)? ???
....and I answered your question clearly.
I sure don't understand......
Did I ask you to report about other people? No.
I asked you what you meant by your post. Thanx for the answer, butWhat makes you think that my commentary was an answer to you asking for a report? I answered your question and then went on to make my comments.
About you quoting the verse 1854, what is your point? Let me make myself clear to you Godsubmitter and everyone here, I am NOT arguing with anyone on this form. Like I said and will say it again, you can believe whatever it is that you want to believe. As this post is about wudhu, if you want to believe that the translations are accurate and wudhu/tayammum as we understand them to be are coming from God, that's your views/beliefs/ways. That's your thing.
I don't agree with the translations and I question the accuracy of the translations. The problem that i see is that we have the translation of the koran which people basically accept and then try to justify the translations with science, examples, opinions and such. Often whole bunch of question arises as a result of these translations for which there are no answers in the Koran and so people then consult other sources like the hadiths, imams, majority opinion, different schools of thought coming up with their own rules, rituals and such.
I do believe that the Koran is from God but the translations are done by men. Open to errors, bias.
I question the accuracy of the translations on wudhu as we understand them to be. My questioning and pondering on the verses have lead me or more accurately leading me to conclude that wudhu is yet another one of men's innovation and are not coming from God as I take on a more in depth and closer look at the verses pertaining to salat/wudhu.
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What's your perspective on this part of the verse, then? What do you believe it means? Do you have any new insight on some possibilities?
Don't have an answer to your questions yet as I am still in search for the truth.
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Ok let's look at 56 step by step and try to make some sense of the translation. At the end of this verse, two things are made clear....
- God does not want to impose hardship on us.
- God wants to purify us
You agree?
Absolutely!
First who is God addressing. starts out with 'o believers' (meaning men and women believers) and then switches to addressing a man. when I read this verse, I started out thinking oh God is talking to me and then....Hmm, ok He is talking to a guy.
I never realized that. How does it switch? Are you able to explain to me the grammar?
So God tells a guy to put dirt on his face and hands before he stands up for prayer. Now how about the women believers? Per this verse, tayammum is only for guys? If you say it is for both then my question is why would God start out with "oh believers" and then switch to the guys specifically if He meant both believing men and women should do this tayammum?
That's a good question. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this?
We are to understand that "purify" in the context of the verse as it is translated means physical purification. Now, let's see if this makes sense after what God has commanded us to do in this verse.
Would you consider putting dirt (may it be dirty dirt or clean dirt) on a guy with facial hair (keep in mind it is Sunna for a guy to grow a beard) to be a cleansing or purifying act? First help me to understand this. Applying dirt on a guy's face and hand is purifying how? Having dirt on your beard is purifying? When you handle dirt, you can get dirt under your nails. Do you consider this to be purifying and cleansing to have dirt under your nails?
So you're completely ruling out the possibility of believers having something akin to diatomaceous earth, salt deposits, sassolite, natron, etc?
Could the word "dirt" be translated to something else?
From PRL Sad-Ayn-Dal = to ascend, mount, run, move with quick steps faster than when walking, go up, be hard (affair).
saAAadan - severe/vehement, overwhelmingly stern (punishment).
saAAoodan - increasingly overwhelming calamity/torment.
saAAeedan - dust, soil, earth, surface of the earth, barren soil, elevated land.
as'ada (vb. 4) - to mount up, to go up. tusAAidoona - going up, going hard and far.
tasa'ada (vb. 5) - to climb up. yassaAAAAadu - he was climbing up.Is there maybe another possibility?
How does wiping your face and hand with dirt render you physically pure? Help me to understand that. From this verse, we are to conclude that answering the call of nature renders you unclean.
If you're not considering the possibility of using something similar to diatomaceous earth, salt, sassolite, natron, etc. Then I can't.
You have to do wudhu with water before standing up for your salat if you went to the toilet. In every Muslim household toilet, you have water to clean your private parts otherwise you are considered unclean. If you don't have the water, according to this verse, God tells you that before you stand for prayer, you "purify" yourself by putting dirt on your face and hands. How does wiping your face and hand with dirt render you clean from going to the bathroom? Your privates are still dirty - aren't they? I don't get that. do you?
I don't see the verses like that. I see them as
- When you rise to perform salat, wash up.
- When in Janabah, wash up.
- When you're ill, on a journey, used the bathroom, or had sex, wash up.
- If you don't have water, use clean earth to clean.
I don't see it as ONLY your faces and hands, but rather, make sure you have good basic hygiene in general.
But it still leaves the problem Why dirt?
Ok so I go the bathroom and I have no water. After urinating or defecating, I leave the toilet totally dirty from that or I wipe myself with whatever is available - cloth, paper, leaf, stone, etc. Too gross not to wipe. So, I wipe but I am unclean. Being that I am a girl, according to this verse can you tell me what I am supposed to do?
I don't really use this dichotomy of un/clean because the only time I've seen the Quran use this word is in regards to polytheists (92. And Polytheists actually do wash...So I still think it's based on personal hygiene. So saying that you wipe, but are still unclean would not apply here, I think. Perhaps I'm wrong?
Before I go any further, let me stop here and let's first answer these questions, addressing these points and come to an understanding. Let's see if these translations which majority accept as being accurate are indeed the right translations and if they really make sense.
All the translations I've seen, including free-minds, RK and Edip's have all translated this to either dust, soil, etc. What does Tayammum mean anyway?
Ya-Miim-Miim = sea, river, flood. To aim at getting, to intend, go towards, to have recourse to, to resort to, to head for, to be thrown in the river, purpose a thing, clean with dust or pure earth.
???
You've made some good points. Thanks, sis! Peace! yay