Polygamy - Time to settle the issue
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OK )
Many thanx for the recap @Fallen Angel 21098
They consult you concerning women say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. You shall restore the rights of orphaned girls whom you cheat out of their due dowries when you wish to marry them you shall not take advantage of them. The rights of orphaned boys must also be protected as well. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof."
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OK
Many thanx for the recap @Fallen Angel 21098
They consult you concerning women say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. You shall restore the rights of orphaned girls whom you cheat out of their due dowries when you wish to marry them you shall not take advantage of them. The rights of orphaned boys must also be protected as well. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof."
Sorry Angel for not abiding by your instruction of not posting. The above post has totally distorted the Arabic text of Qur'aan, therefore, this post.
And they seek from you the Messenger your personal jurisprudential ruling about women.
You tell them; "Not me but Allah the Exalted, by that which is mentioned to you word by word in the Book-Qur'aan, gives you the legal ruling regarding the Father-Orphaned Lonely Women.
These Father-Orphaned Lonely Women are those whom you do not give what is ordained in writing for them . And you keep aspiring that you might take them in matrimonial Bond to retain what is due-written for them.
And it-Qur'aan gives you the verdict about weak young children; and that you people might stand for the interests and rights of the orphans with equity and justice".
And whatever should you people initiate performing deeds of better import, remain mindful that Allah the Exalted is certainly aware of it being omnipresent and always watching the affairs. -
Peace Azhar,
Why not call these women, the orphaned women, widows?
Dawn.
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Peace,
Or does it simply mean, adult females, whose fathers have died?
Dawn.
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Read the previous post by me before reading this
After exchanges of personal messages, and opinions on this thread between me and Mazhar, applying logic, reading Muhammad Asad's interpretation, reflecting upon the grammar, this is the whole scenario I see between 43, 46, 411, and 4127
First people, all of you, understand what 'Orphan' is according to the Quran, Arabic language, and culture. In Arabic, Yateem, the word for Orphan, is a fatherless child, so from now on (I think I mentioned this in one of those earlier posts of mine as well), whenever we say Orphan, we are referring to fatherless children/teens. Secondly, understand that the way Allah has discussed them, and according to Arabic culture, Orphans were automatically assigned guardians, they could be uncles, or brothers, or whatever. Thirdly, we must see till what period are the Orphans considered orphans. This is clearly described by 46
Transliteration Waibtaloo alyatama hatta itha balaghoo alnnikaha fain anastum minhum rushdan faidfaAAoo ilayhim amwalahum
Translation And try/test the orphans until when they reached marriage, so if you find among them maturity of intellect so give over to them their property
What I see from this verse is, that orphans are to be kept with their guardians until they reach the age of marriage. Literally it says They reach marriage, this can be interpreted in two ways, either it means reaching the time of marriage, that is, when they are ready for marriage, or when they get married, but I am quite sure that it is the former, as if it referred to getting married, then God would have probably used the verb form, but in reality, He has used the noun form. Anyway, now the question comes, What is the age of marriage? This is described by this verse itself, and . From this verse, we learn that reaching the age of marriage means being Rushd, which has two basic indirectly linked meanings; To be right as in, do the Correct action, and Maturity of intellect, as in, Being able to manage ones affairs. All these terms have been used in dictionaries. Even by cross referencing with 1866, 2151, 722, among other verses, I have noticed that it denotes the basic meaning of Being correct in something, where by context it is determined what is it that is linked with Correctness. In some instances it refers to correct knowledge, in some places it refers to correct guidance, at another place its the correct path. Here by context we can see it is a form of correctness that has something to do with property, hence, here it means the maturity of intellect that would allow one to make correct decisions in regards to his/her property. This is another reason why I believe it means Time of marriage, because it is only after receiving property mainly for men that one would be able to get married. To further understand this, lets take a look at 1734 And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he/she attains maturity. The word used for Maturity is Ashudah. It comes from the root Shad, which is a broad term that generally means Strength. At times it may be taken as strength in a negative manner, as in, violence, severe etc. and at times it is translated as firm, strict, strong etc. Where all these terms are not limited to physical strength, spiritual strength, or mental strength; hence, by connecting this verse with 46 I believe it refers to the age of full strength, or the point where one, again, is capable of managing his/her property.
After this long discussion, I have concluded, that the age of receiving property, which is also the age of marriage, is not limited to puberty, but more like late teenage or young adulthood, maybe like around 17 to 20 years of age, but that varies from person to person. Since the whole issue of keeping orphans under guardianship revolves around their property, obviously when property will be given, the relation would end anyway. Hence, it is very well possible, that the orphan goes beyond puberty, but still remains under guardianship.
411 describes the laws of inheritance, keep that in mind btw.
Now lets see 4127. 4127 says that what it discusses has already been recited before, hence, it is a must that its contents one way or another are present in the Quran prior to its revelation. The first thing it mentions is Orphaned women to whom you are not giving what is prescribed for them and desire that you want to marry them. Since I have deduced that orphans can be under guardianship after puberty, the following scenario makes perfect sense keeping in mind the Arab culture and their customs of marriage The guardian of the orphan becomes greedy, and wants to keep the orphans property, to do this, he wants to marry her, so their properties become one, without him bearing the blame of Consuming her property. This was obviously a way to deceive the world. It is not exactly the desire to marry her that is not a good thing, but it is the lust for money and her property that is wrong. Also he wont be able to marry her anyway unless he isnt willing to give her the property, as the age of marriage is linked to receiving property. If he doesnt want to give her the property, he wouldnt bother testing her whether she has reached the age of maturity of intellect or not, thus, this whole case of wanting to marry her for the sake of not giving her the property she has a right over is plain wrong. Thats the reason why Allah has stressed two times just within the first 10 verses of chapter 4 on the order of being honest and very careful with an orphans property, which can be deduced by the inheritance laws in 411. This interpretation has solved my queries on 4127 as well, and I personally believe that we have solved the issue of 4127. If no one has any objections, we may continue back to 43.
Mazhar, you may answer dawngorgeous's qestion, and Released, I hope you understood what's happening between me and Mazhar.
Sorry for the late reply people, and excuse all grammatical mistakes.
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411 describes the laws of inheritance, keep that in mind btw.
Now let?s see 4127. 4127 says that what it discusses has already been recited before, hence, it is a must that its contents one way or another are present in the Quran prior to its revelation. The first thing it mentions is ?Orphaned women to whom you are not giving what is prescribed for them and desire that you want to marry them?. Since I have deduced that orphans can be under guardianship after puberty, the following scenario makes perfect sense keeping in mind the Arab culture and their customs of marriage The guardian of the orphan becomes greedy, and wants to keep the orphans property, to do this, he wants to marry her, so their properties become one, without him bearing the blame of ?Consuming? her property. This was obviously a way to deceive the world. It is not exactly the desire to marry her that is not a good thing, but it is the lust for money and her property that is wrong. Also he won?t be able to marry her anyway unless he isn?t willing to give her the property, as the age of marriage is linked to receiving property. If he doesn?t want to give her the property, he wouldn?t bother testing her whether she has reached the age of maturity of intellect or not, thus, this whole case of wanting to marry her for the sake of not giving her the property she has a right over is plain wrong. That?s the reason why Allah has stressed two times just within the first 10 verses of chapter 4 on the order of being honest and very careful with an orphan?s property, which can be deduced by the inheritance laws in 411. This interpretation has solved my queries on 4127 as well, and I personally believe that we have solved the issue of 4127. If no one has any objections, we may continue back to 43.
Peace Fallen Angel -- the above is conjecture.
What if her uncle maternal/paternal is most likely the guardian, therefore he cannot marry her?
What if her most likely suitor is not her guardian therefore he has no control of her inheritance?4127 pertains to marriage gift/dowry and those men thinking to take advantage of orphan girls.
Noon
is plural. is to an individual.
It doesnt even adress any specifik gender. is plural and can be used to both males and females.
Yes the entire community would get 1/2 from their pairs.
No we dont know that these verses point to multiple wives, its something you assume .
You also promote group marriages, so its the same thing.
Peace
Peace Maha -- what you wrote and promote is illogical; simply translate verses posted earlier, starting with these?
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful
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4127 pertains to marriage gift/dowry and those men thinking to take advantage of orphan girls.
Marriage gift is NOT what is signified by . Dowry/Wedding gift is a mutually agreed obligation between would be husband and wife. This liability can be modified with the consent of wife if she voluntary surrenders some part of it. The persons mentioned are restricted to those who can marry a particular orphaned woman. Prohibitions are well understood.
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The word used for ?Maturity? is ?Ashudah?. It comes from the root ?Shad?, which is a broad term that generally means ?Strength?.
Conditional words are
"Until such point in time that he-the father orphaned boy might cross over to his strenthen maturity". "strenghten maturity of him" is the object of Subjunctive Verb . It is the age after "alhulumo"--the age when a boy ejaculates in intercourse during dreaming. Strengthen maturity age might be determined these days by checking the averafe age of males when bones mature.
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and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her
Peace Noon,
Verbs are perfect, an act that happened in the past. Post-facto sanction is being granted for the marriages that he had entered upon in different phases of his life.
It is a fact that We have affirmed it lawful for you, all your wives whom you have already paid their wedding gifts-determined and settled obligations.........
Moreover, that Believier Woman is affirmed lawful who had proposed herself for the Elevated and Chosen One when the Elevated and Chosen One had decided that he should affectionately take her in the fold of Nikah/wedding.
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Peace Fallen Angel -- the above is conjecture.
What if her uncle maternal/paternal is most likely the guardian, therefore he cannot marry her?
What if her most likely suitor is not her guardian therefore he has no control of her inheritance?4127 pertains to marriage gift/dowry and those men thinking to take advantage of orphan girls.
Peace Noon,
Mazhar has answered you exactly what I was going to type. If the guardian is the uncle, then this question wouldn't arise, simple as that. Regarding what you say, for a minute there it seems that it makes perfect sense, but keep in mind that dowries are mutually agreed, and if the man is - as per you - taking advantage of orphan girls in the matter of dowry, then he can do the same with normal women as well. There is no form of distinction in matters of dowry between orphan women and normal women, hence, it would've been more appropriate - if we follow what you say - that Allah doesn't mention orphan women at all, but simple states 'Consider what is recited unto from the book concerning women whom you do not give what is prescribed for them and desire that you marry them'. See what I mean? No offense whatsoever, btw, keep it friendly
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Mazhar has answered you exactly what I was going to type. If the guardian is the uncle, then this question wouldn't arise, simple as that. Regarding what you say, for a minute there it seems that it makes perfect sense, but keep in mind that dowries are mutually agreed, and if the man is - as per you - taking advantage of orphan girls in the matter of dowry, then he can do the same with normal women as well. There is no form of distinction in matters of dowry between orphan women and normal women, hence, it would've been more appropriate - if we follow what you say - that Allah doesn't mention orphan women at all, but simple states 'Consider what is recited unto from the book concerning women whom you do not give what is prescribed for them and desire that you marry them'. See what I mean? No offense whatsoever, btw, keep it friendly )
Peace Fallen Angel -- why wouldn't I keep it friendly? )
4127 and they seek your ruling in/concerning the women say The God gives you a ruling in them and what is recited on/over you in the book in/concerning orphans the women the ones who not you give them what prescribed for them and you desire that you marry them and the oppressed from the children and that you stand up for orphans in justice and what you do from good so indeed The God is in it Knowing
- it is a general address inheritance not mentioned
- address is to any suitors who want to marry them
- includes their eligible guardians and non-guardians who have no authority to dispense their inheritance
Likewise it is stated clearly in beginning of chapter not to mess with inheritance...
42 and give the orphans their wealth and not exchange the bad with the good and not eat/consume their wealth to your wealth indeed it is sin great
43 and if you fear that not do justice in/concerning the orphans so for marrying what choice to you from the women paired/dual and three and four so if you fear that not do justice so one or what possess your right hands that minimum that not you oppress
44 and give the women their handouts/dower graciously so if they remit to you about a thing from it on their own so eat/consume it satisfaction ease46 and test the orphans until when reached the marriage so if you perceive from them rational so deliver to them their wealth and not eat/consume it wastefully and hastily lest/that they grow up and from is rich so should refrain and from is in need for so let eat/consume in fair manner so when you deliver to them their wealth so take witnesses on/over them and sufficient in The God Reckon-er
410 indeed the ones who ate wealth the orphans injustice surely ate in their bellies a fire and they will be burned a blaze
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Peace FallenAngel,
I agree with you in regard to the age of maturity. Maturity is so subjective and goes beyond things like seminal fluid and menstrual blood. Maturity has everything to do with having one's head on straight. Marriage is a huge responsibility for both men and women.
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Peace
All of the posts have been very interesting and insightful in regard to inheritance, age of maturity, and etc.
However, can we very clearly state our stance in regard to 4.3 using all of the information from above posts? I feel like there are a lot of scattered thoughts and analysis' across the board. Yet, I think each poster needs to now bring the focus back to 4.3 exclusively, and provide a thorough analysis in regard to it using an organized format.
By the way, thank you for providing transliterations and translations! I appreciate it, and I am sure Dawn feels the same.
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Noon
Peace Maha -- what you wrote and promote is illogical; simply translate verses posted earlier, starting with these?
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful
peace brother Noon. Excuse me but I dont understand why you quoted the verse above.
Peace
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peace brother Noon. Excuse me but I dont understand why you quoted the verse above.
Peace sister Maha -- verses confirm multiple wives; if you disagree then translate?
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Peace All,
There is another direction we can take. We could come from the point of view of does 43 contradict the Koran's message on adultery. In other words, is there a contradiction? I feel there is. There is a discrepancy. God cannot tell us not to commit adultery and to maintain our chastity then give men permission to have several wives. Islam is also a religion of Peace. Multiple wives does not deliver peace to each wife. I feel there is more to the word marry in 43. More of a caretaking, guardianship role, which would then match up with Mohammad's permission to marry several wives.
I have always wondered what those poor women who were 'married' to Mohammad would do after he had divorced them, because of course, no one is then allowed to 'marry' them.
Another possibility for 43 is that the man may marry up to 4 wives, one after the other? Similar to not being allowed to marry 2 sisters, one after the other?
Just food for thought.
Dawn.
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Peace sister Maha -- verses confirm multiple wives; if you disagree then translate?
Peace brother.
As I earlier said, verses in quran confirm both multiple wives and multiple husbands.
By the way why do you keep translating azwaj with spouses when it means pairs?
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Noon
Peace Maha,
It's the closest word which comes to mind; sort like clan family tree which tribes are known/called has all male members.
This is only an example regardless if real/true or not only to demonstrate how patriarchal peoples identified themselvesclick for larger version http//www.al-islam.org/masoom/bios/famtree.gif
http//i11.piczo.com/view/i/3/207/211041/207211041_207211041_1.jpg
What has the above to do with anything? I live in a modern western country so why should I care about tribes and tribel mentality ?
Have to use context
rijal wanisa -- men and women; this is clear from inheritance verses.
rijal -- can be a group of people with at least one male accompanied by 99 females.
nisa -- always pertains to women (these are not some aliens which walk the earth).
al-nas -- the mankind
If you have alternative meanings then provide consistent evidence and apply to each verse.
You contradict yourself.
I dont think nisa means women. I have already given examples. I still study the issue but at this point it seems to me that qawam are maintainers (Rijaal qawameen 3la nisa) and nisa depend on others.
Peace
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Peace brother.
As I earlier said, verses in quran confirm both multiple wives and multiple husbands.
By the way why do you keep translating azwaj with spouses when it means pairs?
Peace sister,
Multiple wives yes. You've not shown evidence many women can marry every man.
What you are suggesting is a form of an open sex community like the early hippies.In context spouses; in 3350 exactly means wives which you agree verses confirm.
What has the above to do with anything? I live in a modern western country so why should I care about tribes and tribel mentality ?
Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand it's meaning and context.
You contradict yourself.
I dont think nisa means women. I have already given examples. I still study the issue but at this point it seems to me that qawam are maintainers (Rijaal qawameen 3la nisa) and nisa depend on others.
No, there are no contradictions in my posts rather it's your lack of careful study and nisa is always female/women.
This whole issue is put to rest; clear below verses confirm multiple wives. Again, if any disagree, then translate?
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses/wives the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful
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Brother Noon
What you are suggesting is a form of an open sex community like the early hippies
Peace bro. You suggest the same thing, so whats the problem?
. You've not shown evidence many women can marry every man.
You are right. I havent shown you that yet, I apologize for that. So let me show you the verse
Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who are in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand it's meaning and context
So you mean that quran is a book for tribal societies? Well then we cannot really use it anymore in our modern western gender-equal society anymore, right?
P.s Can you show me where the quran says that it was delivered in the 6th century?
3350 O you the prophet indeed We made lawful to you your spouses/wives the ones who you gave their rewards and what possess your right hand from what bestowed The God to you and girls/daughters your paternal uncles and girls/daughters your paternal aunts and girls/daughters your maternal uncles and girls/daughters your maternal aunts the ones who migrated with you and woman believing if she devotes her self to the prophet if intended the prophet that marry her exclusively to you from besides the believers hence we know what We made obligatory over them in their spouses and what possess their right hands not will be to you harm in doing and is The God Forgiving Merciful
His pairs is lawful for him. What has this to do with the nisa discussion?
3352 not lawful to you the women from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty only what possess your right hand and is The God on each a thing Watchful
Another translating could be No NISA are lawful to you after this, nor that you change them for pairs, even though you may be attracted by their goodness, except what is maintained by your oath. And God is Watcher over all things.
In other words, you cannot exchange NISA with Azwaj.
Let me give you the verses where NISA cannot mean women
314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return
Nisa here cannot mean women because Homosexuality would then be justified
I will come up with other verses soon as well..
Peace