Abraham's Vision/Dream
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salaam jtc,
I recommend
wasting a little time on research, and don't just follow the blind if you are realy keen.
Why on earth isn't anything written about Ishaq, about what he did or didn't do?
was it Ismail or Ishaq or are they both referring to the same individual .......
Ever wondered what is the root of Ishaq.
jedi
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Peace all,
Brother Wakas, thank you for the links I found them to be interesting. Also, redsulphur, I have read this understanding you shared.
The problem I have with the threads and Dr. Shabbir's interpretation is that the meaning of the 'Arabic words in the verses does not allow for this interpretation. I notice that sometimes people come up with different meanings for words that have no linguistic or historical basis. While "sacrifice" in the English language has a variety of meanings, the root of Dhal-Ba-Ha in 'Arabic is not ever used in regard to giving something up without is meaning giving up a life i.e. sacrifice as in slaughter.
The story of Abraham's vision is told both in the Torah and in the Qur'an, and seems to have some similarities. The fact that in 37107 it mentions that a "great sacrifice" was ransomed, leads me to believe that the traditional understanding of it being a literal sacrifice holds more weight than a figurative one.
The question I have at this point is regarding 37104-105 where God says Abraham "fulfilled the dream" and that as a "good doer" he was "thus rewarded". Assuming that his dream was about killing his son, how could it be righteous to believe that this is something God would want? Seems to be that he misunderstood that God wanted him to do that, and God saved him, but why would Abraham, wise as he was, think God would expect him to slaughter his own son? As a Christian I was taught that God wanted to test Abraham's devotion i.e. see if he was willing to give up his beloved son for God.
Still trying to figure out how this makes sense. May God help me understand it better.
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peace,
While "sacrifice" in the English language has a variety of meanings, the root of Dhal-Ba-Ha in 'Arabic is not ever used in regard to giving something up without is meaning giving up a life i.e. sacrifice as in slaughter.
I assume by the above you have checked all classical arabic dictionaries? I haven't, so I was just curious.
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Peace jct.
This topic was discussed in this forum(. from me and Hizbullah) , Here are some thoughts I hope you find them useful ( You can also read the thread -ABRAHAM OFFERED HIS DAUGHTERS TO THE WRONGDOERS?-
A reply to those who still claim-" God ordered Abraham to Sacrifice his son"-?
The first murder in Qoran
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The two sons of Adam. " I will kill you" said one to the other...
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..I will not retaliate, said the other...
5;29. ... you will bear a sin...if you kill me...
5;30. His " Ego"( nafsihi) provoked him to kill his brother....He killed him..
God goes on to say
532. Because of this ( liajli dhalik)... We have decreed to the children of israel that whoever kills a person( innocent person) is like he killed all the people...Because of that murder, which was way before Abraham existed... God has forbidden " killing an innocent person".
Would He command Abraham to sacrifice his innocent child?Not according to Qoran? If it was from other than God they would have found in it many contradictions?
The story passed down from hadith is from " other than God" that is why it contradicts the teaching of Qoran.
God , author of the Qoran is a consistent God, Fair and Just. He would not violate His own law.
Explanation from The Quran-Islam website
First
We read in Sura 37 how Abraham had a dream in which he saw himself slaughtering his son. However, there is nothing in the Quran that says that the dream was from God
102.When he grew strong enough to work with him, he (Abraham) said, "My son, I saw in a dream that I am to slaughter you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."
103.They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to slaughter him).
104.We called him "O Abraham.
105."You have believed the vision?" We thus reward the righteous.
106.That was an exacting test indeed.
107. A concession to disastrous slaughter.
108.And we preserved his history for subsequent generations.
109.Peace be upon Abraham.
110.We thus reward the righteous.
111. He is one of our believing servants.Perhaps the most glaring misunderstanding is a result of the mis-interpretation of 37107. According to the traditional interpretations, largely based on a hadith point of view, it is claimed that God saved Abraham's son by substituting a sheep in his place. However, when we examine the relevant Quranic verses we find no justification or any evidence for such an understanding. When we look at 37107 we note that the verse is made of three words, they are
1- Fadaynah
2- B'Zhabh
3- Azeem1- Fadaynah The word fidya is used in the Quran to mean a concession, it does not mean sacrifice. The whole concept of sacrifice for God, or for that matter God sacrificing for the human is totally un-Quranic. To demonstrate the correct Quranic use of the word fidya, we refer to the following
".........If you are ill, or suffering a head injury, "fa fidya" (you are given a concession) by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship" 2196.
As we can see, the word "Fidya" as used in 2196 cannot mean sacrifice. This verse speaks of our rites during Hajj and specifically of obeying God's command not to shave our heads until the completion of the animal offering ritual. If we are ill or have a head injury (and we are forced to keep our heads shaved) then we are given a concession (not sacrifice) by fasting or giving to charity in place of the ritual we are not able to observe. We observe our rituals (or the given concessions) as an act of obedience to God and not as a sacrifice we give to God!
2- B'Zhabh This word means in place of a slaughter. The traditional Muslim thought depicts a sheep that God gave Abraham to slaughter in place of his son, but the Quran does not speak of any sheep or any animal being given! The only slaughter spoken of in connection to this incident is that Abraham was about to slaughter his son.
This leads us to believe that the word Zhabh in 37107 refers to the slaughter of Abraham's son which was about to take place, and not to a sheep or any other animal that is not mentioned in these verses. This fact is further supported by the fact that the word "Azhbahak" which is used in 37102 refers to the slaughtering of Abraham's son, so why should we interpret the same word in 37107 to be speaking about an imaginary animal that is never mentioned in any of these verses?
3- Azeem the word Azeem can mean any of the following great, disastrous or tragic.
When we put the three words together we find the picture totally different from the traditional interpretation of this verse. The three words together say that God made a great concession of intervening (Fidyah) to prevent the disastrous (azeem) slaughter (Zhabh) which Abraham was about to commit.The traditional interpretation that God substituted a sheep in place of Abraham's son does not really justify it being called a "great slaughrer"! What is so great about slaughtering a sheep?
But if the slaughter correctly refers to the intended slaughter of the boy then this would have indeed been a grave disastrous error on the part of Abraham.
The concession from God to prevent this slaughter was to save Abraham from sin and also to save his son from having his head chopped off. God does not normally intervene to save anyone from committing sin, so the intervention at that time was a concession from God. The reason God intervened is given in 37110-111"We thus reward the righteous. He is one of our believing servants."
This is not any different from the time when God intervened to save Joseph from committing adultery with his master's wife (1224). Once again, it was the devil who whispered to Joseph to commit the sin of adultery and not God, but God made a concession (of intervening) to save Joseph from sin. When the devil inspires any other human to commit adultery or any other sin, God does not normally intervene to save the human from sin. God gives the human the law of right and wrong and God gives the human the freedom for choosing right from wrong for himself, and this is exactly why God calls the intervention to save Abraham a concession.
Second
It is decreed very clearly in the Quran that killing an innocent believing soul is a great sin
"No believer shall kill another believer, unless it is an accident.... " 492
"Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, God is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution." 493Third
We also know that God never advocates sin
" ...... Say, "God never advocates sin. Are you saying about God what you do not know?" 728
If we put these 3 important facts side by side, we know that Abraham and his son was a good believer, thus killing his son would be a sin, and we know that God never advocates sin. The truth becomes clear; the dream Abraham had was not from God but from Satan.
But because Abraham was a righteous believer "We thus reward the righteous" God intervened and saved Abraham from falling for Satan's trick. God intervened when Abraham failed to correctly interpret the source of the vision. This is indicated from God's words to Abraham "Have you believed the vision?" God intervened and saved Abraham from committing a great slaughter and great sin (37107).Now let us look into the traditional Islamic interpretation of this event. What Muslim scholars claim is that God commanded Abraham to kill his son so as to test him. In other words, God wished to find out if Abraham loved his son more than he loved God! They then add that when God was assured that Abraham loved Him more than his own son, and just before Abraham slaughtered his son, God substituted a sheep in place of Ishmael to prevent the slaughter.
To expose this naive and totally irrational claim, let us consider the following analogy
Suppose you have a 10 year old son and you taught him all his life that stealing is wrong and that he should never steal any money whatever the reason may be. Now suppose that one day you wish to test your son, would you test him by commanding him to go and steal some money for you? Would you command your son to do what you taught him all his life not to do, even if you want to see how much he loves you?
Obviously not! Similarly God decreed in the Quran (and in all scripture) that killing an innocent soul is a great sin. His son was innocent and was a good believer, he committed no sin to be killed.
God would never test Abraham by commanding him to do something that has always been decreed by God to be a great sin.
This is the message in 728 God would never advocate sin.
Indeed God tests all of us, but God tests us in upholding His commandments, and not in breaking them!Moreover, the concept of sacrifices for God is a corrupt concept that has crept into the Old Testament. It is totally without any Quranic support. Nowhere in the Quran do we read of God asking us to offer sacrifices for Him.
It must be noted that the animal offering (which is one of the genuine rituals of Hajj) is not in any way connected to the dream of Abraham. The following verse confirms that the animal sacrifice is a genuine ritual of Hajj, also that this animal offering is not done 'for God', but it is done for the benefit of the people"The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by God for your own good." 2236
"Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches God. What reaches Him is your righteousness." 2237By reading the words "for your own good" and the words "Neither their meat, nor their blood reaches God. What reaches Him is your righteousness" it becomes clear that the ritual of animal offering during Hajj is not done because God is in need of sacrifice, but they are done for our own good. Such offerings, given to the poor and needy, are given to make us more righteous, and not because God is in need of any sacrifice. Plus the added benefit of feeding poor people with the meat of the sacrificed animals.
he irony is , someone will come back here and try and justify that God wanted Abraham to " slaughter his son" as a trial. Yet they claim to know who God is?
The human being is the " most argumentative " creature.
Ponder the Qoran, do not lock your minds. Free yourselves from the " bonds" and traditions of past generations!
Value God as He should be valued.
Peace.
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Peace Mazhar.
Are you asking me for help?
Would you like me to write articles in your " Haqueeqat" website?
Any time brother.
Peace.
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Peace,
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
Abraham simply made a mistake thinking he was inspired by Allah. But it was obviously shaytayn
who fooled him. Only the mentally ill would kill their own off-spring. Abraham was not mentally ill
so he could not do it. Shaytayn almost had him commit a gross sin but Allah intervened and saved him.God does not advocate sin.
They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"
GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.
Peace O0
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Peace hawkninetynine,
This is the whole issue for me. Abraham obviously didn't end up killing his son, BUT how could he even think that God would order him to do such a thing. It seems like he was thinking that God ordered him to do this through a dream, and he was about to do it??? If that is the correct understanding, and God saved Abraham from carrying out the slaughter of his son, what does that say about Abraham's understanding of the Merciful God? It seems strange that Abraham would even consider this dream to be from God to begin with.
I've read that in an older printing of the Qur'an the verse is written as "wa lam aslama" instead of "fallama aslama" meaning that Abraham and his son did NOT submit to the order given in the dream. I have been unable to verify the validity of this as I do not have the access to the printing referred to and I do not know Arabic grammar well enough to know if that changes the meaning. Can anyone clarify this?
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Peace hawkninetynine,
This is the whole issue for me. Abraham obviously didn't end up killing his son, BUT how could he even think that God would order him to do such a thing. It seems like he was thinking that God ordered him to do this through a dream, and he was about to do it??? If that is the correct understanding, and God saved Abraham from carrying out the slaughter of his son, what does that say about Abraham's understanding of the Merciful God? It seems strange that Abraham would even consider this dream to be from God to begin with.I agree with you that Abraham was not thinking clearly for whatever reason.
It appears that it was not necessary for him to carry out the dream, (sacrifice his son) but just show
his willingness to obey Allah at any cost. It could be that Abraham had a special status and was exempt from standards that the rest of us are held to.037.103
Falamma aslama watallahu liljabeeni
YUSUFALI So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,
KHALIFA They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).037.105
Qad saddaqta alrru/ya inna kathalika najzee almuhsineena
YUSUFALI "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good
KHALIFA "You have believed the dream." We thus reward the righteous.Allah knows best.
Peace O0
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Peace all,
So here are the different understandings I have come across on this issue. I will try to make this as clear as possible so that we can evaluate the merits of each understanding, God willing.
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Abraham had a dream where he was ordered by God to sacrifice his son as a proof of his unquestionable obedience.
Abraham tells his son about his dream.
They both submit to the dream.
Abraham puts his sons head down to sacrifice him.
God calls Abraham telling him "he has fulfilled the vision".
Abraham is "thus rewarded" and a "great sacrifice" is ransomed. -
Abraham had a satanic dream where the devil tried to trick him into believing God wants him to sacrifice his son.
Abraham tells his son about his dream.
They both submit to the dream.
Abraham puts his sons head down to sacrifice him.
God calls Abraham telling him "he has fulfilled the vision".
Abraham is "thus rewarded" and a "great sacrifice" is ransomed.
I have problems with both of these understandings, but based on my very limited understanding of the 'Arabic language, I do not see any other linguistic possibilities for different meanings. I have read Dr. Shabbir's interpretation about Abraham being ordered to "give up/emigrate away from" his son, but I cannot agree with this as it seems to be creating a totally new and unfounded meaning for an 'Arabic word.
My issue with understanding number 1 is that I have believed that God would never order anyone to kill an innocent person. I have read brother Layth's understanding of 254 where he believes God commanded the Children of Israel through the Prophet Moses to "kill themselves". Very similar phrases are used in 429 and 466. In 429 God says " wala taqtuloo anfusakum" ordering us not to kill ourselves. In 466 God says if he ordered people to "uqtuloo anfusakum" it would be better for them to obey this command.
This phrase can mean "kill yourselves" or it can mean "fight/master/overcome your pride". In regards to 429 it seems to be a command not to kill (perhaps each other or suicide). However, if we apply the same translation/understanding to 254 and 466 I believe there would be an inconsistency i.e. God ordering people to carry out something he condemns.
This leads to understanding 2. If Abraham's dream was satanic, what does "you have fulfilled the vision, we thus reward the good doers" mean? Why would God reward someone for attempting to commit a gross sin? That makes no sense to me. In the past I argued that it was a test from God to see if he was willing to do anything for God, but satan was the source of the dream. This is pretty confusing in my opinion.
A sister in another thread said that the dream was from God, but God already knew in advance that Abraham was willing to obey any command from God, and that He would not allow Abraham to actually go through with it, i.e. it was just a test of faith. This is the traditional understanding I grew up with, but I'm not sure it makes sense because it seems to go against things I have learned in the Qur'an, namely, that God does not advocate bad deeds.
Any thoughts?
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Peace all,
I have problems with both of these understandings, but based on my very limited understanding of the 'Arabic language, I do not see any other linguistic possibilities for different meanings. I have read Dr. Shabbir's interpretation about Abraham being ordered to "give up/emigrate away from" his son, but I cannot agree with this as it seems to be creating a totally new and unfounded meaning for an 'Arabic word.
Any thoughts?
Why where the males taken away by pharoe??may be to build the pyramids and his monuments , he did require a very larg work force??.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour
Some of the earliest history of the Pyramid comes from a Greek traveller named Herodotus of Halicanassus. He visited Egypt around 450 BC and included a description of the Great Pyramid in a history book he wrote. Herodotus was told by his Egyptian guides that it took twenty-years for a force of 100,000 oppressed slaves to build the pyramid. Stones were lifted into position by the use of immense machines.
When the child was able to do some form of work? what is work got to do with it?
37102
Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said "O my father! Do as thou art commanded thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"And what is this
Solomon was going to slaughter the poor hupoo ( soldier ) or relieve him of his duty?
2721
"I will certainly punish him with a severe penalty, or execute him, unless he bring me a clear reason (for absence)."So is shabir right, is it about removing people from their abode/ post or slaughtering people,,especially done by prophets who are supposed to be the most law abiding individuals - examples for society?
peace
