Today I don't believe in that kaaba in Mecca
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I agree with you. You talked about verse 2.177 I think. The Sunni authorities abrogated that verse which is why Qibla is sacrosanct to them. But you are right, the Quran says its not important as far as God is concerned.
salaam,
''...as far as allah is concerned'', to me you've nailed it head on. As humans, we construct symbols, the source is human, which we then attribute a divine source. The direction is inverted, the source changed. All symbols convey a message. The buddah statues convey a message. If you do as the symbol demonstrates it's a meaningful message but it remains a relative message, not an absolute message. So when a human symbol is made to be a divine symbol, confusion sets in.
The ritual is of interest to me. Ibrahim asks his creator to teach him his rituals. That questions me in finding out what are these rituals exactly? Somehow my feeling is they're mixed in with something or else not there at all today. But I don't know.
adjwi
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I agree with you. You talked about verse 2.177 I think. The Sunni authorities abrogated that verse which is why Qibla is sacrosanct to them. But you are right, the Quran says its not important as far as God is concerned.
How did they abrogate that verse?! What are they saying is a "better" verse?! Dude 2177 is pretty much the foundation for Islam! How can they abrogate it? It's like my favorite verse in the Quran!!!
freaking out &
Man I'm so happy I'm not Sunni right now.
Sorry for jumping in so randomly! Lol. Peace everyone.
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salaam,
''...as far as allah is concerned'', to me you've nailed it head on. As humans, we construct symbols, the source is human, which we then attribute a divine source. The direction is inverted, the source changed. All symbols convey a message. The buddah statues convey a message. If you do as the symbol demonstrates it's a meaningful message but it remains a relative message, not an absolute message. So when a human symbol is made to be a divine symbol, confusion sets in.
The ritual is of interest to me. Ibrahim asks his creator to teach him his rituals. That questions me in finding out what are these rituals exactly? Somehow my feeling is they're mixed in with something or else not there at all today. But I don't know.
adjwi
Rituals like brushing your teeth every morning or jogging every evening or having turkey for thankgiving are meant as a routine that helps people abide by it. Its also a way for people to worship collectively and maintain a tradition. its a practical way to worship especially for the simple folks. Its helps bind communities together.
Rituals
A ritual is a set of actions, performed mainly for their symbolic value. It may be prescribed by the traditions of a community, including a religious community. The term usually refers to actions which are stylized, excluding actions which are arbitrarily chosen by the performers.
The field of ritual studies has seen a number of conflicting definitions of the term. One given by Kyriakidis (2007) is that a ritual is an outsider's or "etic" category for a set activity (or set of actions) which to the outsider seems irrational, non-contiguous, or illogical. The term can be used also by the insider or "emic" performer as an acknowledgement that this activity can be seen as such by the uninitiated onlooker.
A ritual may be performed on specific occasions, or at the discretion of individuals or communities. It may be performed by a single individual, by a group, or by the entire community; in arbitrary places, or in places especially reserved for it; either in public, in private, or before specific people. A ritual may be restricted to a certain subset of the community, and may enable or underscore the passage between religious or social states.
The purposes of rituals are varied; with religious obligations or ideals, satisfaction of spiritual or emotional needs of the practitioners, strengthening of social bonds, social and moral education, demonstration of respect or submission, stating one's affiliation, obtaining social acceptance or approval for some event?or, sometimes, just for the pleasure of the ritual itself.
Rituals of various kinds are a feature of almost all known human societies, past or present. They include not only the various worship rites and sacraments of organized religions and cults, but also the rites of passage of certain societies, atonement and purification rites, oaths of allegiance, dedication ceremonies, coronations and presidential inaugurations, marriages and funerals, school "rush" traditions and graduations, club meetings, sports events, Halloween parties, veterans parades, Christmas shopping and more. Many activities that are ostensibly performed for concrete purposes, such as jury trials, execution of criminals, and scientific symposia, are loaded with purely symbolic actions prescribed by regulations or tradition, and thus partly ritualistic in nature. Even common actions like hand-shaking and saying hello may be termed rituals.
Ritual actions are not characteristic of human cultures only. Many animal species use ritualized actions to court or to greet each other, or to fight. At least some ritualized actions have very strong selective purpose in animals. For example, ritualized fights are extremely important to avoid unnecessary strong physical violence between the conflicting animals
Religious rituals
In religion, a ritual can comprise the prescribed outward forms of performing the cultus, or cult, of a particular observation within a religion or religious denomination. Although ritual is often used in context with worship performed in a church, the actual relationship between any religion's doctrine and its ritual(s) can vary considerably from organized religion to non-institutionalized spirituality, such as ayahuasca shamanism as practiced by the Urarina of the upper Amazon. Rituals often have a close connection with reverence, thus a ritual in many cases expresses reverence for a deity or idealized state of humanity.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual
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salaameveryone, Bigmo,
As an aside, that penguin walk remains hilarious even though the outcome is known. Thank you for that input, I think it serves the discussion well.
So the kaaba as is presented has two functions 1) direction (kibla) 2) circumbulation ( is it tawaf?). They serve the ritual of salat and the ritual of hajj. Fine? The problem I have with them both is the 'absoluteness' , the 'divineness' given to those rituals. What if salaat was something else? What if hajj was something else? As 'muslims' busy themselves in those perhaps pseudo activities, the real activities are being ignored. To put it plain and simple I don't believe those 'muslims', in fact I deny them and my effort is that of following Ibrahim and turning exclusively towards my creator, my rabb. May allah guide me and guide us to the truth.
I don't mind the rituals made by humans, just don't present them as divine. As for rituals Ibrahim asked his creator for, what are they?
adjwi
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salaameveryone, Bigmo,
As an aside, that penguin walk remains hilarious even though the outcome is known. Thank you for that input, I think it serves the discussion well.
So the kaaba as is presented has two functions 1) direction (kibla) 2) circumbulation ( is it tawaf?). They serve the ritual of salat and the ritual of hajj. Fine? The problem I have with them both is the 'absoluteness' , the 'divineness' given to those rituals. What if salaat was something else? What if hajj was something else? As 'muslims' busy themselves in those perhaps pseudo activities, the real activities are being ignored. To put it plain and simple I don't believe those 'muslims', in fact I deny them and my effort is that of following Ibrahim and turning exclusively towards my creator, my rabb. May allah guide me and guide us to the truth.
I don't mind the rituals made by humans, just don't present them as divine. As for rituals Ibrahim asked his creator for, what are they?
adjwi
Maybe you can tell us where in scripture Abraham made that request. Is it in the Bible or the Quran?
Yes, many prophets never made haj to Mecca. Even if we say Abrhama and Ismail did (there is no evidence for that) many of them like Jesus, Moses, Noah did not. So it can't be binding. As far as Islam is concerned, the rulih elites during the Ummayids and Abbasids were both Meccans. So this might have given them prestige plus economic interest. There was a time in Islamic history where a rival Ka'ba was built and there was fights over pilgrimages for political reason. People who travel were made to make loyalty pledge to the ruler on their way to Mecca. There is talk from secular historians that Jerualem was invented by the rival Ummayid can who broke away from the Ummayid dynasty and set up a seperate Empire. They needed people to head to Jerusalem first so they can make their pledge to them.
But you are right, its not binding as far as Quran is concerned. Personally I see nothing wrong with haj to Mecca or anywhere else. Its the piety behind the pilgrimage that matters.
Capter Al Haj
(36) The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah in them is (much) good for you then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice) when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful.
(37) It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah it is your piety that reaches Him He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.
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what else u dont believe in?
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Salaam to all,
This journey of life has become for me, also one of seeking knowledge upon which that what I believe in, can intellectually rest upon. I have made personnal discoveries, enjoyed reading some of yours, share some point of views and refute others. This journey of life has brought me into islam, which I describe as having entered willingly, eyes "wide" shut and walking backwards, only to discover upon opening ( or closing, whichever)my eyes inside this "Islam" that all was dark. Eventually I asked for a book and the Quoran was offered to me. I was iniated to the rituals by the 'experts' to whom I have turned my back. All I refute, only to my creator I orient myself. This leads me to "salat". I have had a problem with this and I have taken a step back from the "flying" carpet some time ago. The problem is I have remained with a personnal understanding of the movement which has kept my intellect satisfied.
So what is it? What's the problem? The words I have today to explain this is that the problem is the kaaba. This imposed direction by who, what, where, when, why and how I don't really know. Associating the movement of salat in direction of "kaaba" is what is wrong for me today. I mean the history of the place, rather the lack of it, that rock ritual of the pass made into "Islam" I refute. I have to say Ayman's pictures rocked my brain. Today I have excercised myself with the movement of salat without that imposed direction and was moved to share it, so here it is. Today I don't believe in that kaaba in Mecca. But I do believe in the movement of salat. I just don't believe the two are of the same origin and are seperate. There is salat which is not what the "esperts" claim" made it to be.
adjwi
I dont believe the kaaba to be in mekka as well. Its a pagan place which the pagan arabs implemented into their new ''religion''
peace
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what else u dont believe in?
handshake
very good question!...
laugh