Polygamy - Time to settle the issue

Maha

Noon

Not same or A != B
A. Man married to multiple women
B. Woman married to multiple men

Its excately the same. Whats the difference?

Needs to divorce first; see example in 3337
423 waalailu your sons the ones who from your loins
the above pertains to their sons? former wives Ha-Lam-Lam = To untie/undo/open (a knot)
Already married women are prohibited 424 w-al-mnat (already explained by Fallen Angel)

Women with multiple husbands also do get divorced.

The verse is in present tense. So its not your sons former wives, but your sons wives.
Muh7senaat does not mean ''married'' and I have explained that earlier as well. Neither does it mean married in free minds quran translation.

No. I did not write or infer anything about your modernity. Those are ideas that popped in your head.

You contradict yourself. First you said quran is a tribal book because it was sent down in a 6 century tribal village. Then I asked you if quran is useless for non-tribal societies which you now say no to. Thats a contradiction. If quran is promoting tribalism, then it per logic cannot be used in non-tribal societies.

2222 and they ask you about the menstruation say it ailment so abandon the feminine/women in the menstruation

Since you dont have the guts answer my question about if being lesbian is allowed or not, let me tell you, that 'menstruation' isnt to be found in the arabic text.

411.... so if are feminine/women above two (feminine) so to them (feminine) two thirds what left

And NISA here can only mean women because? confused

I'm sure that not all people have a fetish for fine horses, cattle, and farms.
Try insert your meaning for al-nisa then post the verse see how it comes out?
Read verse carefully pay attention to each word especially "from" (i.e. subset).

''Women'' doesnt come out well as well. What have fine horses, cattle and farms to do with anything?

Peace

Zhang

A very civil and important discussion, mash'Allah. Thanks to all involved, just trying to absorb it all...

unknownuser

Peace Fallen Angel,

Thank you for your reply in post 224. I take your point about the husband having to ask permission. However, even if a woman has the opportunity to be consulted, I fear her heart will have been broken by the sheer knowledge that her husband would like an additional wife. Remember, that this new marriage is not just about protecting the adult orphan women, marriage implies they are going to be intimate with each other. So, whereas personally I would be impressed if my husband wanted to support an unfortunate woman financially, I would not be happy with the intimacy part of the support.

Peace Dawn,

You're welcome, and I'm glad you got the answer.

I'm not married so I'm not really sure, but I think that husbands and wives are supposed to know each other quite well right? So the husband should already know what type of a wife he has, whether she'll be heartbroken or whether she'd approve it. So if the husband feels that his wife's heart will be broken, then he shouldn't be thinking about marrying another woman in the first place. Secondly, I admit that the wife would feel extremely bad even if he asks her permission and accepts her refusal, however, shouldn't she then look at the bright side that at least he asked her instead of surprising her out of nowhere by bringing in other women as wives right?

But wait, there's something more important that I just noticed that needs to be cleared up, you said 'Orphan women', that is the term in 4127. In 43 which I am viewing as permitting polygamy, only 'Orphans' has been used. Let me repost the literal translation to clear any misconception up

And if you (Masculine) fear that you would not be able to do justice between the orphans, so marry women who have agreed with you, in twos/two and threes/three and fours/four. Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one

It aren't 'the women' who need justice or help, nor is it the 'orphaned women'. But it is the 'Orphans' in general who need justice, which would be given to them by marrying women. Based on that, I deduce it must be emotional justice, and it may also refer to marrying the mother, however, it is not exactly specified as the word used is 'Women', not 'Mothers of orphans'. How does it do justice has been discussed in the much earlier pages.

Mazhar

however, it is not exactly specified as the word used is 'Women', not 'Mothers of orphans'.

Qur'aan does not use the word "widow". Married women are always referred by the name of their husbands even after their death. She remains wife of that deceased man for reference until she marries another man. The discourse in 43 is about treatment of orphans. "The Women" here means only the wives of deceased men who left "orphans" behind, and thereby, they are none but "the mothers of orphans". The prepositional Phrase ? ? relates to elided circumstantial clause that makes the point conspicous and restrictive to such mothers

unknownuser

Qur'aan does not use the word "widow". Married women are always referred by the name of their husbands even after their death. She remains wife of that deceased man for reference until she marries another man. The discourse in 43 is about treatment of orphans. "The Women" here means only the wives of deceased men who left "orphans" behind, and thereby, they are none but "the mothers of orphans". The prepositional Phrase ? ? relates to elided circumstantial clause that makes the point conspicous and restrictive to such mothers

Well since you cite grammatical evidence, I believe you. However, then how would you interpret that part that says '...Fwaahida aw Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. When it says Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one or ma malakat ayamanukum. If Nisa is confined to mothers of orphans, then does this mean that they can also be ma malakat aymanukum? I'm kinda having a hard time understanding this part.

Released

Peace Dawn,

Here's what I think. Men and women are both expected to remain chaste with those who are not their spouses. Meaning, most likely, you are not going to spend hours and hours getting to know someone of the opposite sex when you're already married. This would not be appropriate. Spending too much time with people of the opposite sex wouldn't be appropriate especially when you're married. God tells us to not even go near adultery, so it wouldn't make sense for a man to bring up the mentioning of another woman, without some state of emergency in the picture.

4.3 has nothing to do with meeting a woman at your workplace that you begin to fancy, or meeting her through any other avenue. 4.3 deals with a state of emergency within a community, where orphans and their mothers need to be assigned to willing and able families.

Again, all of this needs to happen with mutual decision making, not just a mere mentioning of "Hello dear, I am going to take another wife, I'm sure you'll be okay with that" Not!. Most likely, hell is about break loose in that fellow's home. Also, secret marriages when you're already married, are dishonest marriages. At this point, if you get stuck with any of the above, you've probably lost every ounce of love and respect for your husband, and will be riding the divorce train out of town.

Like I said before, I can't just consult my husband on bringing home a kitten, I better make sure he's absolutely okay with it (which he never will be, so I might as well forget about it). Some families may prefer the polygamy route (yes, I know it's shocking to us), and many may just prefer extending their charity in different ways.

God is not allowing men to do whatever they want. God emphasizes respect and tranquility within a marriage. It is up to both husbands and wives to ensure that they do their best in upholding these things.

I'm not sure if you're married yet, but I suggest the following to you Get to know the person reallllllly well (spend as much time as you need), devise a marriage contract that fits the needs of both you and your husband to be, and then thank God for having married a man who respects you. That's it.

Mazhar

Well since you cite grammatical evidence, I believe you. However, then how would you interpret that part that says '...Fwaahida aw Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. When it says Consequently if you fear you cannot be equitable, so one or ma malakat ayamanukum. If Nisa is confined to mothers of orphans, then does this mean that they can also be ma malakat aymanukum? I'm kinda having a hard time understanding this part.

Perhaps this is explained in the Article on "Ma Malakat Ayamanukum'. Pl consult there.

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

I would be interested to hear just how the conversation would go between husband and wife if there were an emergency situation and the couple had not written a a pre nuptial contract. How would the husband break the news to his beloved and what might the follow up conversation look like. Perhaps you could present a short dialogue? I am very happily married thanks.

Released

Peace Dawn,

Sure )

Setting Crisis in the community

Scenario 1
Husband As you know, the war has taken a toll on us. I wonder what is going to become of all of those children who lost their fathers.
Wife Yes, it's rather sad..I wonder what we can do beyond what we're doing now..
Husband I wanted to run across the idea of perhaps expanding our family through verse 4.3...
Wife I'm really not okay with that. The idea of it repulses me. I'm 100% I would not be able to tolerate that.
Husband Okay, that's fine.
Wife However, there are other ways that we can help. We can contribute money, and perhaps even mentor these children.
Husband That sounds like a good idea.

Scenario 2
Husband I wanted to let you know that I will be taking another wife. The children need a father. I should do my part.
Wife I'm really not okay with that. I wish to continue this marriage in a monogamous style.
Husband Well, I feel that I am obligated to help, I think it's something that you are going to have to think over.
Wife I won't apologize for how I feel. I will not continue along this path with you.
Husband Are you threatening me?
Wife No, but I do not wish to take part in a polygamous marriage, and it is my right to reject this.
Husband Well, I also have the right to marry again.
Wife I will be serving you with divorce papers very soon, God willing. I will not tolerate this, it is not the lifestyle that I prefer.

Scenario 3
Wife Wow, the situation is really terrible. Way too many of these children don't have father figures in their lives, and their mothers have been left without any protection..
Husband Well, I suppose this is why God provided us with verse 4.3
Wife You're right, dear. However, I couldn't tolerate such a thing. I don't mind sharing my wealth and volunteering to help these children and women, but I could not live a polygamous lifestyle.
Husband I understand. This is why you stipulated this within the marriage contract. You made it clear from the get to. That was a smart.
Wife Yes..but we should definitely help in a different way.

Scenario 4
Wife I think sometimes we need to make sacrifices in life, to help the greater cause.
Husband What do you mean?
Wife Well, I believe that we have the finances and free time to help these children out, I am referring to 4.3 of course.
Husband Are you sure about this? You have to be sure about this. This will change everything to a degree.
Wife Yes, I think it would be best for the children.
Husband Well, let's think this through, so we come to the best decision.

Okay, I have to run. However, it took me like roughly 25 minutes to come up with these scenarios. These are just some of the scenarios that could take place.

The main things here
Mutual discussion and consultation
Allegiance to one's oaths within contract
Permission
Right to invoke divorce
Rationale To help the orphaned children

There is no coercion here and nobody's being taken advantage of.

All of which is inline with the Quran

You can critique my scenarios, and are welcome to provide us with a scenario.

Noon_waalqalami

Maha

Its excately the same. Whats the difference?

How is it exactly the same?

You said 1 woman can simultaneously be married to 4 men
you said 1 man can simultaneously be married to 4 women
you said 4 men can simultaneously be married to 4 women

Women with multiple husbands also do get divorced.

The verse is in present tense. So its not your sons former wives, but your sons wives.
Muh7senaat does not mean ''married'' and I have explained that earlier as well. Neither does it mean married in free minds quran translation.

Translate 423 ?

By your logic men can marry brother?s wives or any married woman not fathers/son?s?

You contradict yourself. First you said quran is a tribal book because it was sent down in a 6 century tribal village. Then I asked you if quran is useless for non-tribal societies which you now say no to. Thats a contradiction. If quran is promoting tribalism, then it per logic cannot be used in non-tribal societies.

No, I wrote exactly this ?

Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand its meaning and context.

If you want to understand the words you have to understand 6th century Arabic language and culture.

Since you dont have the guts answer my question about if being lesbian is allowed or not, let me tell you, that 'menstruation' isnt to be found in the arabic text.

Again, if you want to discuss sexual orientation open a different thread.

Please translate?
2222
654
Ha-Ya-Dad (Ha-Alif-Dad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 323
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000322.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000323.pdf

And NISA here can only mean women because? confused

411 so if are (feminine) nisa/women above two (feminine) so to them (feminine) 2/3 what left
and if kanat/is (feminine) one (feminine) so to her (feminine) the half

Then there is the math and combinations involved; e.g. who gets 2/3 above?

''Women'' doesnt come out well as well. What have fine horses, cattle and farms to do with anything?

You claimed it says you/all women desire women (lesbianism), and horses, etc. neglect from/subset ?

314 beautified to al-nas/the humankind love the desires from
a. the feminine/women
b. and the masculine/males
c. and the heaps the stored up from the gold
d. and the silver
e. and the horses the branded
f. and the cattle
g. and the tilled land
those provision the life the world
and The God with Him best the place of return
315 say shall I inform you with better from those?

Is it true that all people desire cattle and farms?
Or is the above a few things that people desire?

Peace

Maha

Noon

You said 1 woman can simultaneously be married to 4 men
you said 1 man can simultaneously be married to 4 women
you said 4 men can simultaneously be married to 4 women

and the problem is? confused

By your logic men can marry brother?s wives or any married woman not fathers/son?s?

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

Translate 423 ?

the dictionary says ''wives''

Qur'an was delivered to 6th century tribal society and you living in a "modern" western society e.g. shoe-box high rises with internet and indoor plumbing should be able to understand its meaning and context
.

Firstly I dont think the quran was delivered to a 6th century neither do I believe that Quran was for a tribal society. And I do not understand your point in what you wrote above, sorry.

Again, if you want to discuss sexual orientation open a different thread.

No my question is related to this topic and you keep avoiding answering my question. Now Let me repeat myself. You say nisa means ''women''.

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

Now please tell me how I as a woman desire other women. For how long will you keep avoiding my question?

and the masculine/males

the free minds translation says ''sons'' (But I desire daughters confused?

Is it true that all people desire cattle and farms?
Or is the above a few things that people desire?

Yes according to their time. Today we have mercedes and BMW instead of horses and so on.

Please translate?
2222
654
Ha-Ya-Dad (Ha-Alif-Dad) = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222

I will come back to that word.

Peace

dawngorgeous

Peace Release,

Thanks for that. What about this scenario.

Husband sweetheart, I think we should help out in this emergency with the women and their orphans.

Wife of course we should. We will have to sign the contract with local government then set up the other rooms. I can't believe that some people think looking after unfortunate women means you can sleep with them!!

Husband if they were honest, they would divorce their current wife and marry the new one instead of pretending to be helpful and sympathetic. They are insulting their wives and the orphans' mothers.

unknownuser

Peace Maha

I'm NOT interrupting what you and Noon are discussing, but I have two comments to make to you

You said

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

You don't have to assume in that manner, as far as I remember, sister Samia also did this in one of those very old 2006 threads, which resulted in a lot of misunderstandings between I think Tanveer and her, I'm not sure really, but I do know that this happened before. If you apply common logic, one can see that taking vice versa of the prohibitions in this verse also solves the issue

Prohibited women for men on leftside - Vice versa - Prohibited men for women on right side

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her feather
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and maternal aunt(s) - Her brother's son and sister's son
His niece(s) - Marry her uncle
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - Marry her son in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that her mother has consummated the marriage with him
Two sisters at the same time - Her sister's husband

I on purpose left out the daughter in law from biological sons part due to it still being debated on, but this was just to give you an example. To further try to make you understand what I'm saying, consider the following statement 'You should not drink apple juice'. If we want to say it from apple juice's perspective, then by your logic, it would be 'Apple juice should not drink you', however, by my logic it would be 'Apple juice should be drank by you'. You see the difference? Here's another example 'You will obey your teacher', by your logic, it would be 'Your teacher will obey you', but by my logic it world be 'Your teacher will be obeyed by you' or 'Your teacher will make you obey him/her'. There's a big difference. Logic should be consistent, so if you agree that my logic in these statements is appropriate, then my logic should also be making sense and appropriate in 423 as well.

Please, please, please don't use modern Arabic for the Quran. I don't want to say a lot on this, but here are two examples that should be convincing The Arabic word Jayb, as per Google translate, online Arabic-English-Arabic dictionaries, means 'Pocket' 'Sac' etc. but in that era, way back, pockets didn't even exist, as Jayb referred to an opening in one's cloth like the sleeve or collar. Similarly, according to my searches, Darab these days is usually used for 'hit' or 'strike' in Modern Arabic. But in Classical Arabic, 'Beat' and 'Strike' etc. are more like secondary meanings while the more used were 'To put forth ' or 'To leave'. There are probably several other examples.

Released

Peace Release,

Thanks for that. What about this scenario.

Husband sweetheart, I think we should help out in this emergency with the women and their orphans.

Wife of course we should. We will have to sign the contract with local government then set up the other rooms. I can't believe that some people think looking after unfortunate women means you can sleep with them!!

Husband if they were honest, they would divorce their current wife and marry the new one instead of pretending to be helpful and sympathetic. They are insulting their wives and the orphans' mothers.

Peace Dawn,

Umm..this husband doesn't sound like he ever read the Quran. Divorce isn't really recommended if it can be avoided quite easily. So, this woman may have married a dude that has never actually read the text. It seems like she probably had far worse problems in her marriage prior to this, if he never read the Quran. Quite obviously, the arbritrators could advise him against it, if he can save his existing marriage.

Let me put it to you this way If he's talking about divorcing his current wife to "help" another woman, then he probably is just looking for a way out of the relationship. This situation doesn't sound like he's trying to help anyone, it sounds like he's just looking for a way out of his current marriage. Why would a woman even bother staying with someone like that? Perhaps, she needs to look for a way out first.

This situation doesn't really have anything to do with polygamy. I think it's just an unhappy marriage. I would recommend counseling to them.

Released

Peace all,

I second that. If modern Arabic could be used to interpret the Quran, I think we wouldn't have as many questions as we do today. However, we need to realize that modern standard Arabic doesn't cut it even close. It's similar to how modern, standard English is very different from Shakespearean English. Of course, the language of the Quran goes back even further than that. Even differences in dialects can leave room for some major discrepency. I hope that makes sense.

Released

A very civil and important discussion, mash'Allah. Thanks to all involved, just trying to absorb it all...

Peace Zhang,

Thanks, would love to hear what you think.

Maha

Fallen angel

Prohibited women for men on leftside - Vice versa - Prohibited men for women on right side

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her feather
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and maternal aunt(s) - Her brother's son and sister's son
His niece(s) - Marry her uncle
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - Marry her son in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that her mother has consummated the marriage with him
Two sisters at the same time - Her sister's husband

wrong.

Here is the list

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her sons
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and aternal aunt(s) - Her paternal aunts and aternal aunts
His niece(s) - Her nephew
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - her father in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that she has consummated the marriage with the father
Two sisters at the same time - two brothers at the same time.

That is called vice versa. If a man cannot marry his daughter a woman cannot marry her son as well and so on.

To further try to make you understand what I'm saying, consider the following statement 'You should not drink apple juice'. If we want to say it from apple juice's perspective, then by your logic, it would be 'Apple juice should not drink you', however, by my logic it would be 'Apple juice should be drank by you'. You see the difference? Here's another example 'You will obey your teacher', by your logic, it would be 'Your teacher will obey you', but by my logic it world be 'Your teacher will be obeyed by you' or 'Your teacher will make you obey him/her'. There's a big difference. Logic should be consistent, so if you agree that my logic in these statements is appropriate, then my logic should also be making sense and appropriate in 423 as well.

didnt understood a word of the above

Please, please, please don't use modern Arabic for the Quran. I don't want to say a lot on this, but here are two examples that should be convincing The Arabic word Jayb, as per Google translate, online Arabic-English-Arabic dictionaries, means 'Pocket' 'Sac' etc. but in that era, way back, pockets didn't even exist, as Jayb referred to an opening in one's cloth like the sleeve or collar. Similarly, according to my searches, Darab these days is usually used for 'hit' or 'strike' in Modern Arabic. But in Classical Arabic, 'Beat' and 'Strike' etc. are more like secondary meanings while the more used were 'To put forth ' or 'To leave'. There are probably several other examples.

I dont understand your point. I am an arabic speaker hence I dont use google og any dictionary.

Peace

unknownuser

Fallen angel

wrong.

Here is the list

Anyone who his father had married -Anyone who is a child of the husband she married
His daughter(s) - Her sons
His sister(s) - Her brother
His paternal aunt(s) and aternal aunt(s) - Her paternal aunts and aternal aunts
His niece(s) - Her nephew
The woman (Or women) who has/have suckled him (Foster mother(s)) - The man who she suckled
The woman (Or women) who has been suckled by the same woman (Or women) who suckled him (Foster Sister(s)) - The man who has been suckled by the same woman who suckled her
His mother in law - her father in law
His step daughter(s), given that he has consummated the marriage with her mother - Her stepfather given that she has consummated the marriage with the father
Two sisters at the same time - two brothers at the same time.

That is called vice versa. If a man cannot marry his daughter a woman cannot marry her son as well and so on.

didnt understood a word of the above

I dont understand your point. I am an arabic speaker hence I dont use google og any dictionary.

Peace

lol, you know what, ignore it )

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Maha

and the problem is? confused

I assume that when a man cannot come between two sisters, a woman cannot come between two brothers as well. Just like when a man cannot marry his mother, I assume that a woman cannot marry her father as well.

the dictionary says ''wives''

That is a wrong assumption and wouldn't pass basic logic test.

This is TRUE IF a man cannot marry his mother THEN a woman cannot marry her son.

problem if al-nisa cannot be feminine/women is same sex marriage allowed?
problem if al-nisa is different category feminine/women can you marry them?
422 and not marry whom married your fathers from al-nisa

problem who are mothers nisakum and the ones entered in them?
423 and mothers nisakum ...
from nisakum the ones who entered in them
so if not you have entered in them so not blame over you

problem if hlayl = only present wives; after divorce, can father marry since she is no longer his son's wife?
423 and hlayl your sons the ones who from your loins

, (S,) It (a thing, S, Mgh, Msb) was, or became, lawful, allowable, or free; (S, TA to thee (S contr. of (Msb, K a metaphorical signification, from . (TA.)

she became free from any obstacle to marriage, as, for instance, by having accomplished the . (Msb.) You say, Thou art divorced from me. (TA.)

Lawful, allowable, or free; contr. of ; (S, Msb, K as also (K) and (S, Mgh, Msb, K) and (K a metaphorical signification, from according to some, meaning what is not forbidden; and therefore including what is disapproved and what is not disapproved accord. to others, that for which one is not punishable. (TA.)
A woman free from any obstacle to marriage, as, for instance, by having accomplished the . (Msb.) -b4- See also 5. see . see . -b2- Also A fellow-lodger, or fellow-resident, of another, in one house fem. with . (S.)

And hence, (TA,) A husband (S, Msb, K and with a wife;(S, Mgh, Msb, K as also without (K or they are so called because each occupies a place, in relation to the other, which none beside occupies (Msb accord. to some, they are so called because the husband is lawful to the wife, and the wife to the husband but the word, thus applied, is ancient not a law-term the pl. is . (TA.)

An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863.

Firstly I dont think the quran was delivered to a 6th century neither do I believe that Quran was for a tribal society. And I do not understand your point in what you wrote above, sorry.

To understand the words used in Qur'an one needs to understand language and culture at the time.

No my question is related to this topic and you keep avoiding answering my question. Now Let me repeat myself. You say nisa means ''women''.

314 Beautified for people {An-Nas} is the love of that which they desire ? of women {An-Nisa?} and sons, heaped-up sums of gold and silver, fine branded horses, and cattle and tilled land. That is the enjoyment of worldly life, but Allah has with Him the best return.

Now please tell me how I as a woman desire other women. For how long will you keep avoiding my question?

Where does it say that you as a woman desire other women?
Do you also desire cattle and tilled land? Does every woman?

Read carefully especially ?from? i.e. subset desired by people.

314 beautified to the humankind love the desires from
(Partial list follows?)
315 say shall I inform you with better from those?

the free minds translation says ''sons'' (But I desire daughters confused?

One has to be careful with translations most have different words translated same.

ibn son Mary
ibnaa sons
249 slaughtering ibnaa-km sons yours and letting live nisaa-km feminine/women yours

Yes according to their time. Today we have mercedes and BMW instead of horses and so on.

Yes that is the way one should read the verse and the example given.

I will come back to that word.

OK we'll wait for you and the rest to translate the words highlighted below otherwise pointless to continue...

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the menstruation from feminine/women yours

dawngorgeous

Peace All,

Just out of interest. Were a man to have more than wife, he could obviously conduct his sexual life as he/they wanted? I pose this question, because I was out to dinner tonight when a Jamaican man asked if it was ok for Muslim men with more than one wife to have group sex, threesomes, foursomes etc., and if not, why not?

Dawn.