Knocking on the doors of atheism
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Hello there Confused.
I'd say that I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have similar doubts, that have been bothering me ever since I started doubting Sunni Islam two years ago. I feel that since we grew up religion/faith, and kept it dear to our sides, we feel sadness when we know that we're heading towards disbelief - something previously alien to us. Personally, i'm drifting away to Agnostic Atheism, and if I state the truth, then I think I've been in denial about this for a good many months now.
What I feel is that instead of remaining in denial, you, me and everyone should embrace who you really are. There much more to life than beliefs. Besides, being a good person and enjoying life is the true purpose of life. No...what you make of life...thats your purpose, and it's completely subjective.
If you haven't read it yet, I made a thread a couple of days ago on this topic highlighting the reasons why I've been heading towards disbelief. Give it a read, I think you'll be able to relate to it. I'd also appreciate it if you drop a post or two, so that we can highlight some common ground between us.
Here it is
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604718.0
Take care of your self!
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Peace Confused,
Just wanted to pop in and say that the Quran makes it clear that you have free will and that God does NOT lead you astray "just because". If you're interested to know more about my view on this, you may read this article if you like http//www.free-minds.org/free-choice
The main question one needs to answer before answering all of your questions is What is Islam?
Brother Wakas' link is a great read imho. yay
Peace! sun
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Why complicate things?
One is either a believer or a disbeliever!Anyone who opposes GOD, and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael, should know that GOD opposes the disbelievers.
Do not be impressed by the apparent success of disbelievers.
Have you noted those who received a portion of the scripture, and how they believe in idolatry and false doctrine, then say, "The disbelievers are better guided than the believers"?! rotfl
Others before you have asked the same questions, then became disbelievers therein.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ManZjWaYM
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Wakas, I like penguins, but I want to be a dolphin. I love dolphins! group I like your example, but I think it would be much better if it was about dolphins rather than penguins!
es, I'll admit, dolphins are cool, in fact I've always wanted to swim with dolphins, but the way penguins walk clinches it for me - they are just too funny. They're my fav, hence I chose them.
? ???
fftopic -
Wakas, let's negotiate.
Eric the penguin is in a similar position to you, he feels lost, unsure of himself, his prupose, goal in life, questions about life etc, and one day he is discussing with his fellow penguins and asks them what should I do? A dolphin happens to be close by and hears him ask his question, so he replies "Eric, do you have a beak?" Eric says yes. The dolphin continues "do you have a pair of flippers?" the penguin again says yes. The dolphin continues "do you have a pair of feet?" Eric says yes. "Do you walk like a penguin, eat what penguin eat, live where penguin live, have a penguin mum and dad, have...." Feeling vexed at the rather obvious questions Eric replies "yes! yes to all of them, what is your point?". The dolphin replies "Well, it seems to me, that whoever or whatever brought you here, wants you to be a penguin, so since you're asking what should you do, I'd say "Be a penguin!".
yay
Like?
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Peace.
Questioning things from a philosophical perspective is fine with regards to atheism and/or agnosticism. Atheists don't claim to have all the answers; they merely assert that they don't have sufficient proof for the ideologies that they choose not to accept. This is totally different from a religious perspective, in which religious people assert that they have proof (e.g. in the form of religious doctrine or scripture?) of their religious convictions, even though they actually don't; they merely have faith. In other words, with regards to atheism, there's nothing to doubt - doubt IS your perspective. That doesn't mean you should particularly choose atheism and/or agnosticism as your philosophical position. However, it does mean that you shouldn't be ashamed of questioning anything. Questioning and doubting things are the focal points of mental elevation and development. When you study the Qur'aan or Bible, question the things written in them. Hell, when a scientist makes an assertion, you should question that too. Accept what's most likely or most reasonable. That's the only way you can make an accurate determination of what's true and what's false.
Peace,
Ahmad
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If I were in your position, I would indulge in all sorts of debauchery. But I suppose that doesn't answer your question. Back to your question
Well, what do you want to do?I know you are joking. However, many religious people actually believe this. They think that religion is the only moral compass in this world and that if you don't have a religion, then you are a morally corrupt person. Sad.
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As an atheist I don't think you can expect any real advice or help. This is something you need to figure out yourself. Most of my colleagues are doubting and still "conform" to Islam and go to the mosque on a Friday to not start rumours about their "CONDITION".
What you need to figure out is how important spiritual guidance is for you and how, if your definition of a god include omniscience, you hope to cheat. Can you pretend to be something you are not? How much will this impose a feeling of oppression and fakery on you? What do you prefer? The feeling of freedom or guilt? You can't have both.
I agree. I actually have several friends who became atheists during the past few months. One of them was really devout and used to go to the mosque with me every day. However, of course none of us can be open about our beliefs.
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One of the things that turned me off religion is the idea of hell. It seems really harsh to me that God would let you burn in hell simply because you don't believe in him. So God, created this whole universe just so that people worship him and if they don't then he will punish them forever? Sounds crazy.
Have you guys ever been burned? Maybe while cooking or putting some toast in the oven? Did you see the searing pain that racks your body just because of a tiny burn? Can you imagine what it would feel like to be thrown in hell forever? It's horrible, painful, and actually sadistic. And what is this punishment for? For killing, raping, torturing people? No, it is simply for not believing. Harsh right?
Besides, life is complicated, confusing, busy. Most people get sucked into the craziness of life from a very young age. Most never get the chance to think about spiritual issues. Will they go to hell just because of that?
I also hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic? -
I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
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I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
I did read the site yesterday.
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Well, I think you still have some traditional concept (or misconception) about hell.
One point is that the "punishment" should not be seen as something arbitrary but the result of our deeds. If we choose the wrong way, we are driven more to it, but if we choose the right way, we are guided further on it. Have you read Muhammad Asads translation/commentary of Quran? I think he explains this quite good. Also that instead of "God guides whom he wants to" it can be read as "God guides whom wants to be guided".The other is about believing. I have called myself atheist for some time in my life, but I always had some concept of "good deeds" and now I think it is a kind of confusion about words. If you deny the word god because it is mis-used for suppression so often, but try to live up to your ideals of solidarity and humanity, you can still be more believing than someone who verbally accepts god but is so self-rightous that he/she never questions her deeds and practically only does damage to the world. I think that by "the unbeleivers' good deeds wil not be recognized" is meant the accidental good that arises out of bad intentions. So if you save someone's life for your own benefit, it will not count as good deed.
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One of the things that turned me off religion is the idea of hell. It seems really harsh to me that God would let you burn in hell simply because you don't believe in him. So God, created this whole universe just so that people worship him and if they don't then he will punish them forever? Sounds crazy.
Have you guys ever been burned? Maybe while cooking or putting some toast in the oven? Did you see the searing pain that racks your body just because of a tiny burn? Can you imagine what it would feel like to be thrown in hell forever? It's horrible, painful, and actually sadistic. And what is this punishment for? For killing, raping, torturing people? No, it is simply for not believing. Harsh right?
Besides, life is complicated, confusing, busy. Most people get sucked into the craziness of life from a very young age. Most never get the chance to think about spiritual issues. Will they go to hell just because of that?
I also hear a lot of religious people, especially Muslims, say that God will direct you to the right path if he wants to. That God is the one who chooses who will be led astray and who won't. My question is why? Why would God help some people and leave the rest to live a sinful life and rot in hell for all eternity? Doesn't that sound sadistic?Actually the punishment is indeed for killing/raping/torturing people. One is punished not due to the ignorance that is beyond their limits but oweing to their wilful disregard for the souls of others in committing evil.
There is NO distinguishment between "believing" and "going good deeds" in the context of judgement day. We are ranked in terms of how good we "believe" BY HOW MANY GOOD DEEDS WE HAVE. The strongest of "disbelievers" are not those who said "ok I will not believe this whatsoever" but those who lied, cheated, flayed people alive, burnt them alive, dropped acid on their faces, raped every single orifice of their bodies and threw animals into the mix, had orgies of depravity, disfigured people for life, locked them away for 16 years as sex slaves (all of these being real examples) and exerted their psuedo lordship over other humans purely for the idea that they were not to be raised.
Get that into your head that God is punishing people for their deeds and not for their ignorance. The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
I hope you overcome this block in your perception because very few seem to even want to.
peace
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Actually the punishment is indeed for killing/raping/torturing people. One is punished not due to the ignorance that is beyond their limits but oweing to their wilful disregard for the souls of others in committing evil.
There is NO distinguishment between "believing" and "going good deeds" in the context of judgement day. We are ranked in terms of how good we "believe" BY HOW MANY GOOD DEEDS WE HAVE. The strongest of "disbelievers" are not those who said "ok I will not believe this whatsoever" but those who lied, cheated, flayed people alive, burnt them alive, dropped acid on their faces, raped every single orifice of their bodies and threw animals into the mix, had orgies of depravity, disfigured people for life, locked them away for 16 years as sex slaves (all of these being real examples) and exerted their psuedo lordship over other humans purely for the idea that they were not to be raised.
Get that into your head that God is punishing people for their deeds and not for their ignorance. The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
I hope you overcome this block in your perception because very few seem to even want to.
peace
This last paragraph disturbs me. Are you saying that all atheists are morally corrupt? That only believers have values? That is sad, really sad.
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I've told you to read all and everything on this site http//www.masjidtucson.org/
instead of putting questions here to people who are as confused as you are or even more...You can start with
Why Were We Created ?
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix7.htmlGood luck
Come on, be serious! Do you really think a story like this, pouring emotional guilt on someone, will help them make up their mind whether this particular religion representing a particular god is the best and positive position to have?
Even if someone believes the story of a god being unable to stomp out evil and then blaming humans for not taking sides with him still does not accept the guilt associated with that over generations. Is your god so petty and unforgiving?
If I am from France, do I still have to feel guilty for every crime a Frenchmen has committed since the crusades? Should a Chinese person feel guilty for what Genghis Khan did?
Are you telling me you yourself feel guilty for one of your ancestors not taking a clear stance? Do you call this merciful? You feel you should be punished for what someone else did?
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The cry of the atheist is ridiculous. One second they will say "God is going to throw me in hell for not believing He exists" then the next minute they are arguing for late trimester abortion rights and sexual depravity of all forms.
Would you care to qualify that statement? It seems you have some serious issues.
Do you know how ridiculous that sentence is?
Do you know how useless, irrelevant, wrong and plain slanderous the statement that all atheists are arguing "for late trimester abortion rights" really is?
What does atheism, the lack of a belief, have to do with "sexual depravity"?I suggest you learn
a. about the facts
b. some manners -
This last paragraph disturbs me. Are you saying that all atheists are morally corrupt? That only believers have values? That is sad, really sad.
You have not acquainted yourself with how 'theism' or 'atheism' are defined in the quran my friend.
Satan speaks to God directly and he is called a 'kafir'. Satan is a believer in God yet he is going to be at the bottom of the bottom of the fire. It is purely deeds that define a person's relative degree of 'theism'. God does not care about lip service. The hypocrites will also be in the lowest levels of the hell fire (4145).
My question is, do you have difficulty in processing this understanding? Is there a veil over your eyes blocking you from reading these words and understanding that NOBODY will get punished based on their lip service but purely by the content of their deeds? All I have ever recieved in response to this information from atheists is an emotionally charged accusation of slander, yet they totally gloss over the fact that people are going to be destroyed for the evils that they wilfully committed and certainly not for simply holding a certain belief or ideal in their minds.
In the quranic sense, a 'kafir' is the worst of all persons, they are morally corrupt, not inherently but by their own choice. An "atheist" can be a good person and even a "muslim" according to the quran, while a self proclaimed "Muslim" could be a kafir according to the quran.
Cry as much as you want, you will cry harder in front of God if you do not heed here and now. What am I to you? I can't guide you. All I can present you is the cold hard gritty truth which is that God is not pleased by evil doers and will certainly cause them to regret what they have done.
StopS the same freedom of statement that allows atheists to decry "Muslims" for terrorism and Catholics for sexual abuse is that same freedom of expression I am exercising by making such and such statements. Certainly most atheists do not descend to such depths of magnificent stupidity but there are a few who do and these I am pointing out. You are welcome to read what you please into other poeple's statements but desiring to colour my intended meanings of my own words is a laughable thing to even try, you and I both known this does not work, you cannot put words in others' mouths.
peace
