The creation of the heavens and the Earth
-
Peace StopS.
Qoran says Hell does not exist yet?
It will be created when judgement comes. At the end of this" Life".
Peace.
-
Peace guys,
I think the way i see this is that if God truly is omnipresent, then God has to be EVERYWHERE. Now I'm in 2 minds if hell is a physical place or an allegory, but I believe that as humans, since we are not a fan of abstract items and need physical descriptions (metaphors, similies, personification etc) to actually get a good picture of things, I feel God does this for our own benefit. The "throne" is nothing physical, and as someone else stated on here, it represents sovereignty. With "kaaba", obviously I do not believe the actual literal meaning of "My House" but any place where God is served without any idols or partners comes under this description of being the house. Anyway... before I side track, God is everywhere, and in my opinion if God created the heavens, Earth, hell, Jupiter or wherever, then God is (will be, for those who believe hell hasn't been made yet.. however I am not in agreement with this but not entirely studied it deeply yet either) present, however lets also remember that God is self-sufficient and is entirely unaffected by such things as pain etc etc. In regards also to the fact that God is closer to you than your jugular vein, I read a good article once
http//free-minds.org/god-who-dwells-our-hearts
In my opinion, the fact that God tells us that it is closer to us than our jugular vein is merely implying and demonstrating just how near God is to us. In fact God is so "near" that there is no GAP that God leaves. When I was a kid i used to think stuff like "ooo the air I breathe contains God"... I was young... but if God is everywhere, then God is present in the smallest of smallest of particles, Quarks, whatever wherever however. I hope i'm not confusing people with my view. Up until April I never thought TOO deeply into these kind of things.
Peace peace
-
Peace StopS.
Qoran says Hell does not exist yet?
It will be created when judgement comes. At the end of this" Life".
Peace.
Ah, then this is my mistake. I thought hell was where satan lived and it thus existed.
I also saw 224 "guard yourselves against the fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones" meaning it is already prepared.
What in your opinion does "At the end of this" Life"." mean? All life? End of the Universe?
Do you think this experiment is considered a success or a failure, if only 20% of the human race follows the rules?
If judgment day is over and the Universe has disappeared, do you think there will be another Universe with a planet with people like us who are supposed to worship the same creator? Will everything be repeated? -
Peace StopS.
Satan is not in Hell yet, according to Qoran. Hell (the 8th universe ) will be created when your evidence arrives. The Lord Himself, with the Angels. All your questions will be answered.That is if you have not managed to answer some of them by then.
224 If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
224 Says it awaits them. ie after judgement.
Peace.
-
If, as you say, omnipresence is a fact, then how can a human be closer or further away?
Peace Stop S,
To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
The question is not rather God is omnipresent because the Quran says it is, so therefore it is so.
The problem being only limited human understanding.I was just thinking that a definition would be helpful in defining God according to Islam.
Do I need to define Omnipresence again? Please use your intelligence.O0
-
Peace StopS.
Satan is not in Hell yet, according to Qoran. Hell (the 8th universe ) will be created when your evidence arrives. The Lord Himself, with the Angels. All your questions will be answered.That is if you have not managed to answer some of them by then.
224 If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
224 Says it awaits them. ie after judgement.
Peace.
This is my problem I don't see the after judgment, just the "it awaits", which means it is already existent.
-
Peace Stop S,
To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
The question is not rather God is omnipresent because the Quran says it is, so therefore it is so.
The problem being only limited human understanding.I was just thinking that a definition would be helpful in defining God according to Islam.
Do I need to define Omnipresence again? Please use your intelligence.O0
You hit the problem on the head if I use my intelligence, omnipresent, it means everywhere. If omnipresent is everywhere, how can anything or anyone be closer or further away from everywhere?
If I live in the West, lets say Sydney. I move further West, let's say Perth. Am I closer or further away? I move further West to Durban. Am I further away or closer? It makes no difference, does it?So then how can I be closer if I ascend a mountain? Can you explain that, please?
-
You hit the problem on the head if I use my intelligence, omnipresent, it means everywhere. If omnipresent is everywhere, how can anything or anyone be closer or further away from everywhere?
Is english your first language? If something or someone is omnipresent (fact) then that's exactly
what it means, I'm simply saying that your understanding of the word is the your problem.
Not "if" omnipresent means everywhere, omnipresent means everywhere, regardless of
your understanding. It is for you to figure out why it so. If you truly want to understand Islam
you must learn to read the Quran from the inside out.We have cited in this Quran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.
As for those who are guided, He augments their guidance, and grants them their righteousness.
Peace O0
-
Agreed. Also StopS did you check my reply on the end of the last page?
peace
Ooops, no, I missed it because it was not addressed to me. I agree with the necessity of letting go of some of the literal readings. I very much like your example of the air you breathe.
-
Shalom Aleikhem Bender,
Salaam SoA,
Sorry for the late reply )
Oh, in that case all you need to do is google. The scientific method is well known and documented. I would go with the mainstream to define that.
Do you agree with this definition
"a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."
it's from wiki http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_methodWell, it looked to me as if you were talking about guessworks at its best, not scientific theories.
my bad, this is for me elektro
Well, a hypothesis is like an educated guess. Ofcourse its based on something reasonable. You can't look at a phenomena and assert "a holy frog caused this" and then label it as a hypothesis. But, no matter how reasonable your educated guess/hypothesis is, you need to validate and verify it.
I agree. But I have a question. When does a hypothesis looses it's name? Obviously when it's get refuted and when it's get proofed. I think we a agree on the refuting part. But when can we say that it is proofed? I think here lies our disagreement.
Sorry, I do not agree. Let me start with quoting myself "We have scientific laws that we can check and confirm to be true. We have "facts" / confirmed observations. What we do then is come up with a hypothesis." So, you have the data, you know the facts, and then you try and explain these with a reasonable hypothesis. Mind you, just because you are using facts and observations does not make your "hypothesis" valid. Its like hearing a scream from the basement, you know that it was a girl's voice, and you found a girl's shoes just outside the door. Given those facts, you come up with a "hypothesis"/educated guess about who is in the basement. Lets say that your hypothesis is that its a girl, and my hypothesis is that its the TV that we left on. We then conduct a series of tests to back our hypothesis up. I really don't see what is contradictory in that.
The thing is, you don't stop with your hypothesis. That is not the last step.Probably I misunderstood you.
RED Actually the things that you called facts and true are in fact also hypotheses, they have never been proven, but we take them as facts.
Thats no reason for resorting to something other than science. I don't know where you are going with this. Perhaps, you should open a separate thread to discuss specific theories which were built using facts and observations, using the scientific method. Then you could discuss it there.
RED I see science as a nice tool to predict an outcome but definitely not as the truth.
GREEN If there is some topic I will inshaAllah join the discussion if I have something meaningfull to say.Well, I hate misleading play of words and concepts. Everything that we know can be wrong. I mean, you are a "man", male member of the human race. But how do we know that someday you will not wake up a female ? or an alligator ? or a car ? Even if you remain "you" till death, it does not prove that the "assumption" that you are you is true.
When I drop an object, it falls down, hits the floor. Its always the case, but I can not tell you that this will be happening till the end of time, or this is true and not an illusion. I have never witnessed water flowing uphill , its always from a high place to a low place. But I consider that to be true not because I can prove that this will be the case till the end of time.
But, that system of understanding the universe around me is not utilitarian and serves no use to humanity at all. That is why I resort to science. Because it "works". One could write for ages when it comes to the contribution of modern science to our civilization, and all that, is based on " holds until proven wrong". From the house that you are residing at this moment, the roads you use, the water you drink, the clothes you wear, medicine, transportation, agriculture, electricity, technology etc etc, we achieved all that based on "theories that hold until disproven".
I don't know about you, but I am proud of that, and I side with Scientific Method and Scientific theories. If you wanted to question the nature of truth itself, you can start by asking if you are real or not. And once again that model does not provide and have never given me anything.
Every idea, literally EVERY IDEA is a "not yet refuted" idea. That should not be a license for classifying all ideas as equals. For example, me believing that you are a "male" till I die is not something I would expect one to not take seriously and repeat, its only "holding ground until its disproven".
Peace
------------- Student of AllahI am not questioning the nature of truth. I am questioning the claim that a scientific theory is the truth.
We all know what we claimed before as the truth was completely or partially wrong after more knowledge reached us. So how can it be that you think that what we have at the moment is the truth? I can't predict the future but I am very certain that in 3012 the people of that time will rotfl about the "true" scientific theories of today like we are rotfl about the "true" scientific theories of 1000 years ago.Let me give you an example of what I meant with "even if a scientific theory holds and predicts everything correct till the end of times, it still does not mean that the theory is correct."
When I was a student I made a very simple computer program. It was an object floating over the screen which changed from color and shape. I showed it to a friend of mine and asked him what he saw. After watching the screen for some time, he could predict every single movement and state of the program correctly. BUT even with the "correct" model he construced based on what he observed it still was totally wrong of what really was happening. I showed that program also to some other friends and all of them constructed similar models as him, hence they were all wrong of what really was happening.
This was just a very simple program with just a couple of lines of code and the universe were this happened was a screen which could ofcourse observed in totallity.Salaam,
Bender -
Is english your first language? If something or someone is omnipresent (fact) then that's exactly what it means, I'm simply saying that your understanding of the word is the your problem.
Not "if" , omnipresent means everywhere, regardless of your understanding. It is for you to figure out why it so. If you truly want to understand Islam you must learn to read the Quran from the inside out.We have cited in this Quran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.
As for those who are guided, He augments their guidance, and grants them their righteousness.
Peace O0
How can I learn to properly read the Koran and understand its meaning if I get advice regarding my language skills, but no answers to my problems?
omnipresent means everywhere
the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him 704How can you ascend to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein 5016How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
bow down in sajdah, and come close to Me. 9619How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
Rest assured, if I need English lessons or definitions, I will not come here. If you are thinking of providing lessons, don't. Rather try and understand the question. If you want to help me understand the problem, answer. If you can't, don't.
-
Peace Sushi.
Quote Quote from StopS on Yesterday at 042500 PM
This is my problem I don't see the after judgment, just the "it awaits", which means it is already existent.Agreed. Also StopS did you check my reply on the end of the last page?
Hell is not created yet. It will be created on the Day of Judgement (6917 & 8923)
God teaches us through the example of the caterpillar; it turns into a pupa in the cocoon (grave), then exits the cocoon as an airborne butterfly. Similarly, we live here on earth, and when we exit the grave on the Day of Resurrection we will not be earthbound; like the butterfly (1014).
The earth will shine with the light of God (3969) as He comes to our universe, together with the angels (8922). Since our universe is a temporary place for Satan, it cannot stand the physical presence of God (7143). As the Almighty approaches, the stars will crash into one another (778, 812), and the earth will shatter under our feet (6914, 8921). These horrors will not worry the believers (21103).
A new, eighth universe ( Hell) will be created to house those who run away from God due to their weakness; they failed to nourish and develop their souls (6917). God does not put a single being in Hell; they go to it on their own volition.
Study, check and clarify from Qoran.
Peace.
-
Peace Stop S,
What I am suggesting to you is regardless of your very limited understanding omnipresence means everywhere.
The definition of a word is not dependant on you!
I am using only your suggestion and the Koran. If you don't understand the question or are unable to answer my very simple question, just say so.
omnipresent means everywhere
the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him 704How can you ascend to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein 5016How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
bow down in sajdah, and come close to Me. 9619How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
-
Peace Stop S,
I understand your questions perfectly, you were not following the discussion. Sushi1992 and I were discussing omnipresence and reached an impasse. You where just asking some of Sushi1992's questions all over again.
Thank for the information what else you were doing. These are now questions I have. Are you able to answer them, or are you not able to answer them?
I will repeat them as you don't seem to understand them
I am using only your suggestion and the Koran. If you don't understand the question or are unable to answer my very simple question, just say so.
omnipresent means everywhere
the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him 704How can you ascend to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
We are closer to him than (his) jugular vein 5016How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
omnipresent means everywhere
bow down in sajdah, and come close to Me. 9619How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
-
Thank for the information what else you were doing. These are now questions I have. Are you able to answer them, or are you not able to answer them?
I will repeat them as you don't seem to understand them
I am using only your suggestion and the Koran. If you don't understand the question or are unable to answer my very simple question, just say so.
How can you ascend to something which is everywhere?
How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
How can you be closer to something which is everywhere?
I have to share StopS's frustration here. We all understand omnipresence means everywhere. Hawkninetynine you have already stated this but have just given Quranic evidence of how we are close or nearer to God when we submit and become obedient and feel like connecting with God. I believe God is everywhere and within everything. As I have already explained the way I take it is to give us an understanding of how close God becomes to us in a sense which I will try to explain. Say a person drinks lots of alcohol, sleeps with anyone they feel like sleeping with (one night stands, or short term relationships here and there to be a big shot), takes drugs because they think its fun (not for depression reasons) etc etc. Basically does all these bad things that harms the soul/self (whichever word you prefer for ruuh). Now as you do bad things to yourself, this pushes you further away from God. I do not take this as a physical meaning but as an allegoric meaning, metaphorical in a sense. It's like someone saying "if you continue to become abusive to your family members, your respect and love for them becomes more distant from yourself". Of course, love and respect cannot actually be more distant or less distant in a physical sense as these are abstract objects, very much like how I take God to be an abstract transfinite being. I don't find a problem if i take those verses quoted by you, Hawkninetynine, in the way described above. However, i DO find a problem if i take it in a physical sense, because of course as StopS reiterates over the previous posts, how can something be near, ascend to or become closer to if they are present in every quark of an atom in the universe. I think this is the point both me and StopS were trying to get across. Did you check the link out that i gave previously hawkninetynine? I think it is quite a good/decent explanation of how God actually works in terms of where God actually resides (i am obviously not meaning in one spot btw). StopS, thanks for liking my air description , something I actually thought about when i was young ).
Peace guys peace
-
Peace Sushi.
Quote Quote from StopS on Yesterday at 042500 PM
This is my problem I don't see the after judgment, just the "it awaits", which means it is already existent.Agreed. Also StopS did you check my reply on the end of the last page?
Hell is not created yet. It will be created on the Day of Judgement (6917 & 8923)
God teaches us through the example of the caterpillar; it turns into a pupa in the cocoon (grave), then exits the cocoon as an airborne butterfly. Similarly, we live here on earth, and when we exit the grave on the Day of Resurrection we will not be earthbound; like the butterfly (1014).
The earth will shine with the light of God (3969) as He comes to our universe, together with the angels (8922). Since our universe is a temporary place for Satan, it cannot stand the physical presence of God (7143). As the Almighty approaches, the stars will crash into one another (778, 812), and the earth will shatter under our feet (6914, 8921). These horrors will not worry the believers (21103).
A new, eighth universe ( Hell) will be created to house those who run away from God due to their weakness; they failed to nourish and develop their souls (6917). God does not put a single being in Hell; they go to it on their own volition.
Study, check and clarify from Qoran.
Peace.
Peace good logic,
Muhammad Asad - End Note 11 (6917)
Since God is infinite in space as well as in time. it is obvious that His "throne" (arsh) has a purely metaphorical connotation, circumscribing His absolute, unfathomable sway over all that exists or possibly could exist (cf. note 43 on 754). Hence, too, the "bearing aloft" of the throne of His almightiness cannot be anything but a metaphor - namely, an allusion to the full maniffestation of that almightiness on the Day of Judgment. The Qur'an is silent as to who or what the "eight" are on whom this manifestation rests. Some of the earliest commentators assume that they are eight angels; others, that they are eight ranks of angels; while still others frankly admit that it is impossible to say whether "eight" or "eight thousand" are meant (Al-Hasan al-Basri, as quoted by Zamakhshari ). Possibly, we have here an allusion to eight (unspecified) attributes of God or aspects of His creation; but, as the Qur'an states elsewhere, "none save God knows its final meaning" (see 37 and the corresponding note .Edip-Layth 8923 Hell on that day is brought. On that day the human being will remember, but how will the remembrance now help him?
The Monotheist Group 8923 And Hell on that Day is brought. On that Day man will remember, but how will the remembrance now help him?
Muhammad Asad 8923 And on that Day hell will be brought ; on that Day man will remember but what will that remembrance avail him?
Rashad Khalifa 8923 On that day, Gehenna will be brought forth. On that day, the human being will remember - but what a remembrance - it will be too late.
Shabbir Ahmed 8923 And Hell is brought close that Day. On that Day man will heed the Advisory, but of what avail will then be the remembrance?
Transliteration 8923 Wajee-a yawma-ithin bijahannamayawma-ithin yatathakkaru al-insanu waannalahu alththikra
A 8923Judging my the commentators and translators, there isn't much implication that hell doesn't already exist.. in fact quite the opposite judging my 69.17 and 89.23.
I quote "A new, eighth universe ( Hell) will be created to house those who run away from God due to their weakness; they failed to nourish and develop their souls (6917)". Using the arabic and quranic references, explain why you assume that the 8 implies universe, which in turn implies hell.
Peace peace
-
peace Stop S,
As I stated earlier, Sushi1992 and I were not able to come to a acceptable conclusion
because we could not reconcile some of the points you repeated. However, the method
of understating Quran must be done so with the concession that the Quran is right and it
is for us to figure out how and why, thereby gaining knowledge of Islam. It appears that
God can do what can be considered incomprehensible. For instance, created a consious
human being who can compose music. Understanding omnipresence is among the great
challenges presented to us.Having said that I will attempt to make sense out of the ayats, first
The angels, with their reports, climb to Him in a day that equals fifty thousand years.STOP S climbs his stairs it takes him 15 seconds he says something to God, God is omnipresent.
God is where you left from and where you arrived.Hawk99 walks to the store in 5 minutes, at the store he ask God for guidance, God is omnipresent.
Therefore the angels are traveling, this does not diminish the attribute in any way
God is everywhere by knowing everything, remember there is no mention of physicality
With Him are the keys to all secrets; none knows them except He. He knows everything on land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. Nor is there a grain in the depths of the soil. Nor is there anything wet or dry, that is not recorded in a profound record.
343] Those who disbelieve have said, "The Hour will never come to pass!" Say, "Absolutely-by my Lord-it will most certainly come to you. He is the Knower of the unseen. Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."
Next ayat is
We created the human, and we know what he whispers to himself. We are closer to him than his jugular vein.
Two recording (angels), at right and at left, are constantly recording.
Not an utterance does he utter without an alert witness.oh boy do I have to say "spies"?
Next ayat
You shall not obey him; you shall fall prostrate and draw nearer.This ayat encourages deen so that one may be saved from the hellfire.
And lastly God told Moses go to pharoah "I am with you hearing and seeing."
Peace O0
Ayats to consider
When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."
My take on the preceding ayat is that God's presence cannot be tolerated by this infinitely small fragile earth.
but he is aware of everything that goes on all the time.Those who disbelieve have said, "The Hour will never come to pass!" Say, "Absolutely-by my Lord-it will most certainly come to you. He is the Knower of the unseen. Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."
Yet, they set up besides GOD idols from among the jinns, though He is the One who created them. They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.
Be He glorified, He is much too exalted, far above what they utter.
GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god besides Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims.