Knocking on the doors of atheism

noshirk

Salaam confused

I permit myself to give you "a diagnosis" based on my own experience.

Apart God and Quran, I rejected all what you rejected but i now believe more than before.
If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.

Knocking on the doors of atheism means that you freed your mind from many things your reason told you it was lies.
However, knocking on the doors of atheism in the free-minds.org website means that you are also knocking on doors of God and that the link with him is not dropped yet.
Now, you have the choice
1- use your free mind to go closer to god.
2- use your free mind to go far away from GOD.

For me, you HAVE ONLY STARTED to drop the link with idolatry (following blindly ancestors, false "scientists" and hersays of people on what God said).
Doubting is a pillar of reason.
I think that "Exposing his doubts to God", like you have done, can be the beginning of a sincere relation with him.

Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".

Peace

justamuslim

Like you, after going out from the idolatry i thought it was islam, i knocked the doors of atheism but i never entered there even if i discovered more and more lies in "traditional islam".
However, i have to recognize that reading atheists helped me to wash my brain from idolatric islam.
But reading quran with new eyes and new brain helped me to wash my brain from atheists lies and removed all what remained from "traditionnal islam".

Peace

Perhaps it would help if you elaborated addressing the specific confusion that Confused is having. Examples of specific atheist lies.

hawk99

Peace,

There was a time when I disputed with other faiths and atheists and other belief systems,
it was a continuing battle of ideas, but as I incorporated daily reading of the Quran,
salat and zakat in my life I understood that it was not about anyone or anything else, but between
me and my lord. The need for consensus slowly slipped away and the ayats of our lord
became truer than ever

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."

I no longer care what somebody else believes, God says he will decide between us
on judgement day. God says that we will be tested by one another.

Religious tolerance is a great thing because God did not create us all alike.
I accept the Quran when it says fight those in war who agress you but if they
desist leave them be.

There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

I realize that God does not want certain people to believe

I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.

Peace O0

StopS

Peace, StopS.

I partially disagree. Religious fundamentalists reject those scientific determinations because their theological convictions teach them otherwise. It's not particularly because they choose not to accept reality. There are still Muslims in Arabic countries who teach that the Earth is flat and sitting on a trail of camels! Yes, they're choosing to accept nonsense; but only because they have a preestablished faith in their theological principles - in this case, hadiyths that teach that foolishness... Can I wake up one morning, say, "Hey, I want to believe in angels and demons today," and actually believe it instantaneously? Of course not. It has to be conditioned and established. Otherwise, I'm just claiming to believe it; I don't actually believe in it.

And yes, from a generalized standpoint, theism is an illness. It's called delusion.

Peace,

Ahmad

I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.

StopS

Ok I am not God. So tell us what evidence you need. What would you consider to be an evidence needed for you to believe in God?

I am also not god, so how can I know what is possible and what the right way is?

I can only go by what is offered by humans and that is truly not sufficient. What is sufficient in your eyes and what would convince you if you came from a remote island and had never heard of the concept of a god?

justamuslim

I think I understand you 100% and yes, I agree, there are instances where it does not make any sense.

Does it make sense for a limited mind to understand the limitless? Finite entity to understand the infinite?

You understand only what you are capable of understanding, within your finite existence and perceptions.

StopS

If you are coherent with yourself, you cannot reject GOD because of all hersays that idolaters and atheists said about him.

May I ask whether for you, the alternative and opposite of Islam is idolatry?
If a person does not accept the ideology of Islam that person automatically is an idolater. No other alternative possible?

Oh and just by the way an atheist does not see any evidence for the existence of a god and cannot say anything about what has no evidence.

GODsubmitter

Peace,

There was a time when I disputed with other faiths and atheists and other belief systems,
it was a continuing battle of ideas, but as I incorporated daily reading of the Quran,
salat and zakat in my life I understood that it was not about anyone or anything else, but between
me and my lord. The need for consensus slowly slipped away and the ayats of our lord
became truer than ever

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say, "O you disbelievers.
"I do not worship what you worship.
"Nor do you worship what I worship.
"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."

I no longer care what somebody else believes, God says he will decide between us
on judgement day. God says that we will be tested by one another.

Religious tolerance is a great thing because God did not create us all alike.
I accept the Quran when it says fight those in war who agress you but if they
desist leave them be.

There shall be no compulsion in religion the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

I realize that God does not want certain people to believe

I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.

Peace O0

Excellent post, as always!
Thank you @hawkninetynine
sun

peace

StopS

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

Come on, I have explained this so many times a person cannot reject something for which there is no evidence of its existence.
Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.

So what you are saying is nonsensical. I understand what you would LIKE, but we can't always have what we like or want.

Why do you think that not everyone is supposed to believe? "I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship" 5156
Does that sound like only a few elitist humans should jump on board and submit?

noshirk

Perhaps it would help if you elaborated addressing the specific confusion that Confused is having. Examples of specific atheist lies.

Salaam justamuslim

Atheist lies are based, for me, on these pillars
1- deducing from lies and misunderstanding of "scholars" that God is lie.
2- attributing crimes of auto proclaimed muslims to God
3- bad translation of Quran and then attack of the mistranslation.

from the scientific point of view, they attribute what we attribute to GOD to a GOD named Chance.
They have never proved that "chance" can create universe, earth and life.
Physical laws are very precise. Life is the highest technology we can see. How can be this "by chance" ?

Atheits want people to believe that "big scientists" are atheists. That is not true. Biggest scientists believed in GOD or , at least, to a superior intelligence.
The last prophet of atheism, the so called Darwin, made no experience and build a theory without even knowing what is genetics. it is the believer called Gregor Mendel who discovered laws of genetics.
All what Darwin said is that "chance" produce mutations. Environnement select good mutations and let them reproduce. If you ask them what is a good mutation, they respond "good mutation is the one who reproduced". It is a tautology that proove nothing.

Life and physical laws are described by God as "ayats" which is the same word applied to verses. In fact atheists are to "ayats of science" what are islamic scholars to "ayats of quran".
Rejecting atheism is a similar process to rejecting inventions of islamic scholars. It is a litte more difficult and confused have to study to achieve this goal.

When I was 25, I moved to Australia. The experience was quite an eye opener. When you see a country that is so diverse, that has so many cultures and religions, it really changes you. it makes you think about the idea of a "one true religion" again. Is it possible that all these people are wrong and going to hell, and that only the people who practice one faith (whether Islam or Christianity or whatever) will go to paradise? Did God create us here just to worship him, and if we don't then he will throw us in hell? Isn't that a bit harsh?

I will make some remarks on this quote

it makes you think about the idea of a "one true religion" again

Islam is the religion of Abraham, Moses, Issa and so on. Confused is possibly confusing islam with a new "religion" brought by Muhammad. Many "muslims" thinks that Moses was a jew and that Isaa was a christian and deduce that religion of Moses and religion of Issa and religion of Muhammad are three different religions.

Confused would have to think about the possibility that the word Muslim to God has not the same meaning for God than for islamic Scholars. It is possible that, according to God definition, as explained in quran, there are between christians, jews and "others" people who are much more muslim that the so called muslims by islamic scholars.

Did God create us here just to worship him.
It is possible that confused is making confusion on the word worship. Perhaps he is thinking about rituals he cannot find in quran. Perhaps he believed the lie that says that God send us a 600 pages book only for spirituality and ask us to see "other details of worshipping" in books he never send. Perhaps he is reliyng on falses explanations of words of Gods for understanding words of Gods.

And if we don't then he will throw us in hell? Isn't that a bit harsh?
it depend on the the "contract" signed before this life. If we accepted this rule, then it is not harsh.

7172 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But man accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.

this leads to other importants questions. The more important is Why God proposed us "the contract" ?

Searching on the web, on this site can help but Quran promised one thing
If one come to god humbly, putting faith only in him, GOD will find the way to explain him "things".

Questions of Confused are good questions. However if he put his faith in free-minds.org and his members, he will, i think, understand nothing.
Only God can explain islam and confused have "to work" and proove his sincerity to GOD.

Peace

noshirk

May I ask whether for you, the alternative and opposite of Islam is idolatry?
If a person does not accept the ideology of Islam that person automatically is an idolater. No other alternative possible?

Oh and just by the way an atheist does not see any evidence for the existence of a god and cannot say anything about what has no evidence.

Salaam StopS

Please read the two first pages of Quran
There is three main Types of Humans

17 The path of those You have blessed (category 1), not of those who have incurred the wrath (category 2), nor the misguided (category 3).

Page two explain more
-1- true believers
-2- unbelievers (atheists, pagans ....)
-3- People that believe that they are better guided that others, make sin in name of God and misguid other people that take them as "tutors". That's idolatry.

i don't know who is 2 and who is 3 in 17
i am not an unbelievers and i try no to be an idolater. it is why a choose noshirk as pseudo.

Peace

youssef4342

Peace,
Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

Not entirely.
I was an Atheist, then agnostic. and God still guided me. i was a nice person. God guides the nice people. There is something called Repentance and Reforming.

see
God's Systems of Guidance and Misguidance
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603904.0

Again, i will cite the the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.html

hawk99

Come on, I have explained this so many times a person cannot reject something for which there is no evidence of its existence.
Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.

False

It is not up to you to decide, that is what judgement day is all about, it has nothing
to do with your very, very limited understanding, this is the deen of Islam where
God has the final say. That is the separation between you and me.

Likewise, a person cannot be rejected by something without proof for its existence.

The Quran is proof to believers.

Peace O0

StopS

Atheist lies are based, for me, on these pillars
1- deducing from lies and misunderstanding of "scholars" that God is lie.
2- attributing crimes of auto proclaimed muslims to God
3- bad translation of Quran and then attack of the mistranslation.

Wow, you have some horribly warped misconceptions there! Do you have an example of an "atheist lie"? You use the word "lie" a lot. Is the way you use it really correct? Does any atheist ever make a claim that a "god is a lie"? I was 12 and did not know of scholars or even what a scholar is when I lost my faith and became a rationalist. Do you regularly experience really primitive atheists who are unable to differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist? If the existing translations are so bad, why don't you make one which does not convey any lies? Just putting the blame on atheists for trusting what 40 odd translators have translated over the last 1000 years is a bit unfair, I think.

from the scientific point of view, they attribute what we attribute to GOD to a GOD named Chance.
They have never proved that "chance" can create universe, earth and life.
Physical laws are very precise. Life is the highest technology we can see. How can be this "by chance" ?

Oh dear! Who taught you that nonsense? Have you been listening to Zakir Naik? Naughty naughty!

Atheists have no connection to science. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
Maybe people or individuals have, but that is not associated in any way with atheism. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
There are very few physical laws and the rest is anything but precise. Humans can barely understand gravity. We have practically 0 knowledge when it comes to physics when applied to the very large or the very small.
Yes, there is occasionally the element of chance, but not the way you seem to misunderstand it.

Atheits want people to believe that "big scientists" are atheists. That is not true. Biggest scientists believed in GOD or , at least, to a superior intelligence.
The last prophet of atheism, the so called Darwin, made no experience and build a theory without even knowing what is genetics. it is the believer called Gregor Mendel who discovered laws of genetics.
All what Darwin said is that "chance" produce mutations. Environnement select good mutations and let them reproduce. If you ask them what is a good mutation, they respond "good mutation is the one who reproduced". It is a tautology that proove nothing.

Shhh, not so loud. This is very, very wrong!

hawk99

Not entirely.
I was an Atheist, then agnostic. and God still guided me. i was a nice person. God guides the nice people. There is something called Repentance and Reforming.
seeGod's Systems of Guidance and Misguidance
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603904.0
Again, i will cite the the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.html

Peace youssef4342

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

You are right my friend, I should have added "except those that repent"

Thank you for the correction.

O0

StopS

Atheist are those who reject God, but more consequentially, atheist are those who God has rejected

Maybe you need some repetition an atheist reacts to claims made by a theist. A theist is someone like you.
You believe there is evidence for the existence of a god.
An atheist does not believe there is evidence for the existence of a god. An atheist is someone who lacks a belief.

You can only reject what is proven.
An atheist sees no evidence for the existence of a god.
An atheist can't reject any god.
You can only be rejected by what is proven.
An atheist sees no evidence for the existence of a god.
An atheist can't be rejected by any god.

Summary it is impossible logically that an atheist rejects a god or is rejected by a god.

Do you think you can remember this? I do NOT reject any god! Is this clear now?

noshirk

Wow, you have some horribly warped misconceptions there! Do you have an example of an "atheist lie"? You use the word "lie" a lot. Is the way you use it really correct? Does any atheist ever make a claim that a "god is a lie"? I was 12 and did not know of scholars or even what a scholar is when I lost my faith and became a rationalist. Do you regularly experience really primitive atheists who are unable to differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist? If the existing translations are so bad, why don't you make one which does not convey any lies? Just putting the blame on atheists for trusting what 40 odd translators have translated over the last 1000 years is a bit unfair, I think.

Oh dear! Who taught you that nonsense? Have you been listening to Zakir Naik? Naughty naughty!

Atheists have no connection to science. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
Maybe people or individuals have, but that is not associated in any way with atheism. Atheism is ONLY a lack of belief.
There are very few physical laws and the rest is anything but precise. Humans can barely understand gravity. We have practically 0 knowledge when it comes to physics when applied to the very large or the very small.
Yes, there is occasionally the element of chance, but not the way you seem to misunderstand it.

Shhh, not so loud. This is very, very wrong!

Form wikipedia
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims?especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims?are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions

so
Agnostiscim I don't know
Atheism i know that there is no deities.

So an Atheist knows !
it is not a lack of belief since they believe that there is no God. So they believe that existence of GOD is a lie.

however, if
2. Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis.
but they knows that God don't exists
then we can conclude that
Atheism=knowledge by ignorance

peace

StopS

Form wikipedia
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims?especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims?are (so far as can be judged) unknowable. Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions

so
Agnostiscim I don't know
Atheism i know that there is no deities.

So an Atheist knows !
it is not a lack of belief since they believe that there is no God. So they believe that existence of GOD is a lie.

however, if
2. Atheists have no opinion of cosmogony or abiogenesis.
but they knows that God don't exists
then we can conclude that
Atheism=knowledge by ignorance

peace

Wrong!
Agnostic, as the word already indicates, means no-knowledge.
Atheist is about belief. That is why you have the words belief, unknown and unknowable there.

So you have all the definitions there and you STILL get it wrong???

I have a question you are a Muslim and I ask you questions, where I assume you know what it means to be a Muslim. You ask me to use only an approved book, a book you approved.

Why, if I am an atheist, do you constantly insist on telling me what I believe?

I don't care what Wikipedia says. MY own definition, approach and understanding is there is no evidence for the existence of a god.

Well, now you know that your assumption is wrong, so you know the conclusion is totally wrong.

How do you get from a god to abiogenesis? And how does any of this lead to ignorance? Can you explain yourself?

IAMOP

IAMOP..... I think your content was lost with your confrontational tone and issues that you seem to have with atheists it seems and the manner in which you approach.

I am glad that Confused posted this thread as clearly she is not alone and I personally know of people who rejected "Islam", Koran and God based on what people say, portray and practice including some in this forum and not truly understanding God and Islam. We should discuss and address post like this. Now, what purpose would it serve and hope you would accomplish though by being confrontational asking "do you have veil over your eye" and then answering your own question by stating "you have a veil"? Although you might be right and know it is right, don't you think that it would easily turn off or away someone who truly is confused and lost?

So lets take it easy on Confused and others like her and not go ballistic

Thanks Justamuslim but I do not intend confrontation. Even if the words appear confrontational to some, that is an emotional interpolation. I am emotionally detached from such words. Nor do I have a problem with atheists but I do have a vicious problem with people ignoring the substance of an argument and riling themselves up over words and creating pretend drama and mock offense; I have dealt with enough histrionic persons as it is.

If people don't want to be sincere then they can rot in the hell they choose to make for themselves, that is not my problem, I have enough of my own soul to deal with and I suggest you do the same as God says you cannot make the deaf to hear or the blind to see and there are some, to whom you can bring the best of examples and you cannot make them to heed. Now if God the almighty the supreme creator himself is telling you he will not make them to hear, who are you as a limited human being to try to compromise? Do you see where I am coming from?

Now me asking about a veil is not confrontation. I know people say silly things like "are you stupid?". That is certainly not my intention, I am a drop in the ocean like everyone else. It is a genuine question DO YOU HAVE A VEIL OVER YOUR EYES? CAN YOU READ THESE WORDS? WILL YOU RESPOND TO THESE WORDS? And clearly the word of God has been proven true, that these people are too blinded by their own egotism to even care to answer, too comforted by the seductive whispers of Satan to give a fleeting thought to that which might help. I am not asking whether anybody is smart or stupid. I am shining some morse code and asking if these people can read morse code. Otherwise what is the point of even saying anything when the other party is not even remotely sincere in their intentions to actually consider anything you present?

I have had many teachers put things in a harsh fashion to me. I quell my ego, humble myself and look at the substance of their words, accept I was wrong and correct myself; and I expect nothing less than this from others. I would apologise for my tone had I intended any malice but I never did intend malice, plain and simple and God is witness to the content of my heart, enough said. Just keep in mind that I have seen followed these debates from start to finish hundreds, perhaps thousands of times. And they always end the same. Nobody will ever yield to another person on the internet regarding religion. It does not work that way, either a debate runs through perfectly from the get go (when all parties are sincere) or it is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Hope this clarifies, peace

justamuslim

@StopS, Ahmad and others...

Ok prove me to that you exist. How do I know that you exist? What evidence do you have of your existence? What proof do you have of your age? What scientific evidence would prove your existence? Lets see your answer.

How can you prove that a person existed? Birth certificate? What is so scientific about a birth certificate? Just because so and so witnessed a birth makes it scientific and reliable? What if the witnesses where not reliable or delusional? What if there was no historical documentation of birth or death certificate or any historical accounts of a persons existence? would you consider historical records and witnesses to be scientific evidence? and what proof and evidence do have that you are actually your mothers child?

Just because you cannot prove with scientific evidence of a person's existence or lineage, that means a person never existed? Isn't this the atheist position for their argument that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of God? No scientific evidence means no existence of God?