Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

Mazhar

Hoppean is correct and 5/17 is a GREAT EXAMPLE of the grammatical rule that we see in 4/3 where a masculine singular verb is acted out by a plural noun. This too is a well known grammar rule of Arabic where if the subject pronoun is a group of people, the verb will be SINGULAR if the verb comes BEFORE the subject in an Arabic sentence. And if the subject pronoun is a mixed group of male and female, this singular verb will be 3rd person masculine.

Whoever Hoppean is, I must say that person has a good eye and understands the grammar rule these two verses (4/3 and 5/17) exemplify. It would be beyond ridiculous to say that Allaadheena Qaaloo Allah Huwa Al Maseehu in 5/17 are only males.

He has referred to the most elementary rule of Arabic. In Nominal Sentences the Verb will always match in gender and plurality with the Subject mentioned before the Verb. In Verbal sentences, where sequence is Verb-Subject-Object, the verb will always be thrid person singular masculine or feminine according to the gender of the following subject. However, for broken plurals the Verb can be either feminine or masculine, even if the subject is certainly biologically masculine plural.

It is also the most elementary rule that Prepositional Phrase is neither the Subject nor Predicate of a Nominal Sentence; nor is the Subject of a Verb.

It is also the most elementry lesson of Arabic that the Subject of a Verb will ALWAYS be in NOMINATIVE case and NOT in genitive or accusative case.

Ignoring these rules, one will talk only rubbish while interpreting the text of Arabic.

dawngorgeous

Peace Uq,

Grammar aside, how does marrying up to four women make you fair to the orphans?

Dawn

Shirley

The first part of this post is directed to the person named Mazhar and the last part is addressing Wakas.

Mazhar,

From the beginning of this thread as I was trying to have my one on one with Wakas, you kept throwing comments at me and trying your best to engage me while I am dealing with Wakas. I'll address you just this once. After that, if Wakas wishes to present your arguments in addition to his own, I'll respond to him. That way I will be killing two birds with one stone.

You want to believe so badly that "Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa' " is a prepositional phrase and for you to insist on this lets me know that you either did not read what I posted (along with a links) about the Ma - Min Clause in an Arabic sentence or you're ignoring and possibly reject it.

Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa' IS NOT a prepositional phrase. A prepositional phrase (rather it be Arabic or English) indicates LOCATION or POSITION (and in the case of Min (when it IS used as a preposition to mean from) it indicates DIRECTION. This too is ELEMENTARY and BASIC Arabic.

A prepositional phrase (as I said) shows the location of the subject. The phrases underlined below are actual prepositional phrases.

1). Fatima fil Bayt - Fatima is in the house.

2). Ayna al kutub? Hiyya 'alal ma'ida - Where are the books? They are on the table.

The only prepositional or positional words I am aware of are Bi, m'a, 'ala, fee, tahta, aamaama, wara', bijanib, bayna, ila and (when it is indicating direction or location) min.

HOWEVER, I am under the impression that you should be aware that Min is ALSO USED to mean THAT WHICH or HE WHO is part of a whole, some, from among. I capitalized the words That Which because this term is the First Half of the clause that I had pointed out to you all. MA Taaba Lakum MIN An-Nisaa' - THAT WHICH/HE WHO has expressed an attitude of agreement and pleasantness to you.

So, that's TWO ELEMENTS of this phrase in 4/3 which make this phrase NOT a prepositional phrase. The FACT that it is not used as preposition in 4/3 (to indicate position, direction or location) but instead is used as indicator of someone who belongs to a group of people. 10/83 is JUST ONE of MANY verses in The Quran where the word Min is used in this manner. And also the FACT that the word "min" in 4/3 is used in the second half of the Ma-Min Clause. So NO "Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa' " in 4/3 is not a prepositional phrase.

By the way, ignoring the message of The Quran and the meanings of the Arabic words, one will talk only rubbish while interpreting the text of Arabic.

DEAR WAKAS,

I know my last reply to you is quite lengthy, so I am not going to ask you to reply to everything in that post. But I would still like an answer to my question which I am going to repeat here

We agree that the masculine plural is used for two different groups of people. A group consisting of all males and a group consisting of males and females.

When you use come across the masculine plural that is referring to one of these two groups of people through reading a text How Do You Know which group of people the masculine plural is referring to? If it is used for PEOPLE/HUMAN BEINGS it will be referring to one of those two groups. So how DO YOU ascertain WHICH GROUP the masculine plural is referring to?

Mazhar

You want to believe so badly that "Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa' " is a prepositional phrase

I never said this. I only said that is a prepositional phrase. In Arabic this is . Open any book of Syntactic Analysis, one will find it so.
And a primary class student of Arabic will say that it is rubbish to presume that an object noun of a Preposition could be subject of a preceding third person perfect verb. I don't know why people do not let simple things enter in minds only to stick what was stated earlier.

Mazhar

So, that's TWO ELEMENTS of this phrase in 4/3 which make this phrase NOT a prepositional phrase. The FACT that it is not used as preposition in 4/3 (to indicate position, direction or location) but instead is used as indicator of someone who belongs to a group of people. 10/83 is JUST ONE of MANY verses in The Quran where the word Min is used in this manner. And also the FACT that the word "min" in 4/3 is used in the second half of the Ma-Min Clause. So NO "Ma Taaba Lakum Min An-Nisaa' " in 4/3 is not a prepositional phrase.

This is now something more than rubbish. In 10/83 the subject of Verb is which is in nominative case and absolute state. The prepositional phrase that follows it relates to elided adjectival for the subject. The Subject of Verb is never in genitive case as in 4/3 is .

Preposition "Min" is used in Qur'aan perhaps more than 1500 times, just search, one will never find its object noun as subject of a verb.

Semantic Properties of Prepositions
In semantic terms, the preposition functions to illustrate a logical, temporal, or spatial relationship between the object of the prepositional phrase and the other components of the sentence.

Mazhar

Etymologically, (woman) is derived from (man).

Morphologically, (women) is formed from (woman).

The fact that shares no radical letters with is due to the formation of a plural noun from a singular using none of the latter's radical letters. This is not the only example in the Classical language, nor is it an infrequent phenomenon.

How are you.

This I have found about it
The standard word for "a man" in Arabic is

rajul(un)

A man

This is an agent noun of the structure fa"ul(un); it literally means "a walker."

Other words for "a man" in Standard Arabic include

/

'imru'(un) / mar'(un)
A man
Etymology mra'un
In modern spoken Arabic, words of the root R J L are used standardly
Man

("walker," active participle)

Used in Egypt and southern Levant with variable pronunciations

(e.g. "raagil" in Lower Egyptian )
raajil

Man

("very walker very man" emphatic active participle)

Used in Arabia, Levant, Iraq, etc. with variable pronunciations

(e.g. "rejjaal" in Urban Syrian )
rajjaal

The standard classical word rajul(un) can still be heard today in some rare dialects with varying pronunciations (e.g. "rajil" in Palestinian Arabic).

The feminine form of this word, rajula(tun) = "a woman" was uncommon in Classical Arabic and it is not a standard word.

Rather, the standard word for "a woman" in formal Arabic is the feminine of 'imru'(un)/ mar'(un)

/
'imra'a(tun) / mar'a(tun)

A woman
Etymology mra'atun
This word is used in many modern dialects (e.g. Arabia, Northern Levant, Iraq) with variable pronunciations (most commonly, "mara&quot. Another word that is common in modern Arabia is "hurma" (plural "hareem" &#1605.
Dialects that are derived mostly from classical Yemeni Arabic (Egyptian and South Levantine) use a non-Arabic word for "a woman"

sitt
A woman

This is not an Arabic word but a word that is commonly found in South Semitic languages (e.g. Ethiopian languages). It appears that this word was also used in Old South Arabian languages (ancient Yemeni languages spoken before Arabic).

Anyway, this word has found its way into modern Egyptian, Palestinian, and Lebanese Arabic. The plural is sittaat . This word is used in other modern dialects as a word for a "grandmother." This is found in dialects that started out as Yemeni-based dialects but deviated later (North Levantine).

The plural of rajul(un) is

rijaal(un)

Men

Note that rajul(un) cannot be regularly pluralized (cannot take -oona).

However, the words 'imru'(un), mar'(un), 'imra'a(tun), and mar'a(tun) cannot be pluralized at all.

This leaves the word for "a woman" without a plural. The plural word for "a woman" in Standard Arabic is

nisaa'(un)

Women

Another less common variant

niswa(tun)

Women

Both words do not have singulars (plurale tantum). These words are related to the following words

A male human being
'ins(un)

'insaan(un)

The roots ' N S and N S are apparently cognates and they mean "man, human."

Etymologies

nsun 'insun (man/human)

nsaatun nisaa'un (women)

The root N S / N SH is common in Semitic languages (e.g. Akkadian nishoo (people), Aramaic 'anaash / 'eesh (man), Hebrew 'ansh / 'eesh (man)).

In modern spoken Arabic, the following words are used for "men"

Used in Arabia, Levant, Iraq, North Africa etc. with variable pronunciations
rjaal

Used mostly in Egypt

("riggaala" in Lower Egypt )
rajjaala

http//arabic.tripod.com/Nouns4.htm

This entry seems incorrect
A male human being
'ins(un)

Qur'aan shows it otherwise---7206 has both Rijaal who are from Ins.

Noon_waalqalami

In other words, this verse says that if you are intoxicated, ill, on a journey or hit by forgetfulness than dont approach salah.

Same goes for this verse as the verse above.

Peace Maha, cross-reference and insert your new interpretation to see if it makes sense?

2223 nisukum forgetfulness yours a tillage for you so approach your tilt how you like ?
2236 not blame over you if you divorce nisaa/the forgetfulness what not you touched them...

411 directs you The God in your children to the male like share the two (f) so if are (f. pl) nisaa/forgetfulness above two (f) falahunna/so to them (f. pl) third dual (2/3) what left and if kanat/is (f) whidatan one/single (f) so to her the half

423 prohibited over you your mothers ? and mothers nisakum/forgetfulness yours

56 O you the ones who believe when you stand up to the prayer so wash your faces and your hands to the elbow and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles and if you are impure so purify yourselves and if you are sick or on journey or comes one from among you from the toilet or you touched the forgetfulness?

3330 O forgetfulness the prophet from commits from you in immorality
3332 O forgetfulness the prophet you are not as one from the forgetfulness
3352 not lawful to you the forgetfulness from after and not that replace in them from spouses and if/had pleased you their beauty

651 O you the prophet when you divorce the forgetfulness so divorce them to their waiting period and count the count

The verse isnt talking about menstruation please refer to Bobs post.

2222 and they ask you about the time or place of war say it ailment so abandon al-nisaa/the forgetfulness in the time or place of war and not approach them until they are clean so when they are purified so come to them from wherever directive The God indeed The God loves the ones who turn in repentance and loves the ones who purify themselves

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the time or place of war from nisakum/forgetfulness yours if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na menstruate? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

y d = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 323

An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863. Edward William Lane.

1 , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. , inf. n. and (S, Msb, K) and , (Aboo-Is-h?k, K,) said of a woman, (S, A, Msb, K,) She menstruated; i. e. her blood flowed; (A or blood came forth from her womb; (Mgh as also or this latter signifies she likened herself to the . (TA.) -b2- Also She attained the age of menstruation. (TA.) -b3- , (S, A, Msb,) aor. as above, (Msb,) inf. n. , (S, Msb,) The flowed with, (S,) or emitted, (A,) a matter resembling blood; (S, A flowed with its gum (Msb) the matter which it emits is called ; and is applied to the head of a new-born infant to scare away the j?nn, or genii. (A, TA ) -b4- The torrent overflowed; or poured out, or forth, from fullness; or ran; syn. . (TA.) 2 He attributed to the woman. (Msb.) -b2- , (TK,) inf. n., (Sgh, K,) Tempore men- struorum inivit ancillam suam. (Sgh, K, TK.) -b3- , (TK,) inf. n. as above, (K,) He made the water to flow. (K, TA.)

5 see 1. -b2- Also She abstained form prayer (&#1577 during the days of her ; (S, Msb, K, TA waiting for the stopping of the blood(TA) or she abstained, and did as the does (A, * Mgh) or she reckoned herself , and did as the does. (TA.) 10 , (S, Mgh, Msb,) in the pass. form, (Msb,) with damm to the , (Mgh,) found in the handwriting of Aboo-Zekereey? , (TA,) She continued to have a flow of blood (S, Mgh) after her days (S) or she had an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or her blood flowed without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (TA.) . -b2- A thing which flows from the , resembling . (Mgh.) A single time, or turn, of menstruation, or of the flow of the menstrual blood (S, * A, * Mgh, Msb *) pl. ; (A, Msb like as is pl. of , and of , and of , and of ; though by rule it should be . (Msb.) You say, and and . (A.) -b2- As used by the professors of practical law, The accustomed days thereof. (Mgh.) -b3- Also A single flow pl. . (TA.) the subst. from (S, K, TA) or a mode, or manner, or state, of (Msb) or the state (Mgh, TA) of the , (TA,) which is one of avoidance (Mgh, TA) of prayer and fasting and the like (Mgh) pl.. (S, Msb.) -b2- Also The menstrual blood; the blood of menstruation; and so and . (TA.) -b3- Also The piece of rag which the binds over her vulva; (S, Mgh, * Msb, * K and so (S) which latter also signifies a piece of rag thrown away (TA) pl. of the latter, . (S, TA.) see . , applied to a woman, act. part. n. from ; (S, Mgh, Msb, K thus, because it is an epithet of particular application ; (Msb and with ', being like and &c.; (TA and in like manner also, (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) on the authority of Fr (S) pl. (of the former, Msb) , (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) like as is pl. of , (Msb,) and , like as is pl. of , (TA,) and of the latter, , (Msb,) or . (S, Mgh, K.) -b2- In a certain trad., in which it is said that God will not accept the prayer of a unless she be with a , this does not mean one who is menstruating while actually occupied by prayer, (Msb, TA, *) but One who has attained to the age of menstruation; (TA or one who has attained to womanhood (Mgh) or it has not this meaning; for if it had, one would understand that a girl not arrived at puberty might pray with her head uncovered, which is not the case; but it means the menstruating kind, whether she have attained to puberty or not; as though the term female had been used in its place. (Msb.) is a simple subst. as well as an inf. n. (Zj, K) as the former, it is a n. of place; and as such it is used in the Kur ii. 222; meaning A woman's ; (Zj her ; (Mgh because it is the place of . (Zj, Mgh.) Some say that is hence derived; because the water flows to the (Az, K) for the Arabs put in the place of , and in that of. (Az, TA.) -b2- It is also a n. of time . (TA.) -b3- See also . -b4- When it is a simple subst., it has a pl., namely . (TA.) see . A woman continuing to have a flow of blood after her days (S) or having an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb) or having her blood flowing without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (K, * TA.)

and and A woman who is supposed to be pregnant; (K as also (A, K) and (A) or in whom pregnancy has appeared (K) or, (K) and , (TA,) as also , accord. to J and IM, but this is rejected by F, (TA,) a woman whose menstrual discharge is later than its usual time, and who is therefore hoped to be pregnant (S, K) pl. and and is also said; and sometimes the sing. (&#1612, being originally an inf. n., is used as a pl. (TA.)

One who mixes, or converses, with others ex. He is one who mixes, or converses, with women. (K.)

The Fakeeh of the Arabs says, (S, * TA)

Maha