I am unclear on this verse
-
Salaam Taj,
I'm not sure I'm getting you because you seem to be here and there with your explanations. Taking a look at what you said, you spoke of the ayat not regarding material things.
Ayah, as clearly as it appears to me, is regarding morals and not material things.
Then you actually do acknowledge the ayat being about material things.
So the forbidding was from the objection or the resentment of that division.
Since the division is in regard to 'war spoils' it is material.
So in case somebody might not accept that way of division, the Ayah reminds the listeners to follow that rule which was to be carried on by Prophet Muhammad and not to object to it whatsover.
What exactly do you see that rule as? Can you elaborate on the rule? The only rule I myself am aware of is the fair division of materials among the populace so that it is not a monopoly among the rich and powerful alone. Your explanation still has not opened my eyes to how you conclude this ayat is about moral codes.
Joe
-
Salaam Taj,
I'm not sure I'm getting you because you seem to be here and there with your explanations. Taking a look at what you said, you spoke of the ayat not regarding material things.
Ayah, as clearly as it appears to me, is regarding morals and not material things.
Dear Joe,
You did not quote me right. What I wrote to Br. Sharrif was this "That part of the Ayah, as clearly as it appears to me, is regarding morals and not material things."
I wrote "That part of the Ayah". I DID NOT write 'The WHOLE' Ayah.
That part of the Ayah, as clearly as it appears to me, is regarding morals and not material things.
Please, Joe, go back to my post and check it again.Then you actually do acknowledge the ayat being about material things.
So the forbidding was from the objection or the resentment of that division.
The first part of the Ayah is regarding the division of the Giving. That is the material part. The last part was regarding morals.
Since the division is in regard to 'war spoils' it is material.
Of course!What exactly do you see that rule as? Can you elaborate on the rule? The only rule I myself am aware of is the fair division of materials among the populace so that it is not a monopoly among the rich and powerful alone. Your explanation still has not opened my eyes to how you conclude this ayat is about moral codes.
So in case somebody might not accept that way of division, the Ayah reminds the listeners to follow that rule which was to be carried on by Prophet Muhammad and not to object to it whatsover.That division has excluded some people. The second part of the Ayah reminds those people to accept that division and to follow the word of the Messenger and to not trespass it. And that is the moral part.
Taj
-
Salaam Joe,
Excuse my mistake. You have explained what the moral part is and now how do you know what the word of the envoy is in this ayat?
That part of the Ayah that goes
"Whatever that the Messenger has brought to you, so take it, and that which he forbade you from, so hold yourself from." does not say what that word exactly is. It just generally says to abide by it.Taj
-
Salaam Taj,
Can you present a contextual analysis of what is to be abided? I somehow see that the decision here called to be abided by is what is given or denied to one of these spoils. I see no general call to abide by what the rasool says except in this particular situation regarding the flow of distributions.
Joe
-
Salaam Joe,
I see no general call to abide by what the rasool says except in this particular situation regarding the flow of distributions.
I see it as a general call because Allah does not say Whatever that the Messenger has brought to you FROM that Giving.....
Also Allah does not say and that which he forbade you from the Giving...
The word 'the Giving' is not mentioned in that part. -
Salaam Taj,
I somehow figure you're presenting yourself with a problem by breaking the ayat apart like this and not working with context. Sure it does not say 'from that giving', but looking at the context one can see it is from that giving. I'm sure there is no need reiterate the sentence from just before. Also how you can just come up with it meaning a general thing is beyond me when one looks at how you just brought up a needless redention.
Joe
-
Salaam Joe,
I somehow figure you're presenting yourself with a problem by breaking the ayat apart like this and not working with context. Sure it does not say 'from that giving', but looking at the context one can see it is from that giving.
If you want to stick to the context no matter what, then that is up to you. But what is clear to me is clear to me and I cannot change it! Sometimes, there are parts of Ayat that come in the middle to give a general call, and I don't have a problem accepting it!Also how you can just come up with it meaning a general thing is beyond me when one looks at how you just brought up a needless redention
What is redention!?
-
Salaam Taj,
I meant rendition, I spelled the word backwards.
Sometimes, there are parts of Ayat that come in the middle to give a general call, and I don't have a problem accepting it!
A general call? Why can't the call be central the the theme of these ayaat in which it falls between? Why must you look for something that is not there in the context? If you are not used to determining what is being spoken of based on context how can you expect to figure the picture wholly?
But what is clear to me is clear to me and I cannot change it!
That is fine. Stick to what you feel is clear.
Joe
-
Salaam Taj& Joe,
Interesting contrast of opinion, does Allah present His Qur'an in a way that interjects different subjects within each ayah haphazardly or does He only change the subject with suitable breaks and keeps the delivery focused?
From my studies I think the context is essential. And, I see most of the debates arise from not keeping it so eg. 435 to 36.
Regards
-
Salaam Ash Shuura,
Salaam Taj& Joe,
Interesting contrast of opinion, does Allah present His Qur'an in a way that interjects different subjects within each ayah haphazardly or does He only change the subject with suitable breaks and keeps the delivery focused?
From my studies I think the context is essential. And, I see most of the debates arise from not keeping it so eg. 435 to 36.
Thanks for the comments!
The thing is, there are sometimes sentences within the Ayat that can be part of the context as well as standing on their own and can be applied to many other situations, anywhere, anytime. One cannot limit them to just the context that they appeared in especially when the words used give bigger meaning or are of bigger use.I did write in a previous post here "That division has excluded some people. The second part of the Ayah reminds those people to accept that division and to follow the word of the Messenger and to not trespass it. And that is the moral part."
But the Messenger had to do other things in other places and situations that could have upset some other people too, so that sentence of the Ayah serves, all the time, to remind those people to abide by what the Rasool did.I will give you another example of sentences that have there proper, of course, place in the context yet can also stand out on there own. Take a look at Ayah
If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practice self-restraint, Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
The translation is, unfortunately, not so accurate, mainly the underlined parts.#1 and such settlement is best;
There is no 'and such' in Quran. There is "And the reconciliation is best" That is the closest translation I can think of. I cannot think of a closer one.#2 even though men's souls are swayed by greed. There is no greed in the Ayah! The closest translation to the Arabic would be "The selves are readied for Stinginess"!
Now, Ash Shuura, CAN #1 and #2 NOT be used apart from the context? DO they NOT provide a general rule that can be applied anywhere, anytime?
Taj
-
All of you give importance with earnestness to the grammar/dictionary meanings to start wiith, then soon you go for interpretation/context leaving the language/dictionary/meanings/gramar in the lurch. Contrasting difference of opinions, finally each sticking to his own understanding is enough evidence from Allah that we stopped groping about grammar and dictionary to understand an ayat of Allah. Let us use commonsense that has become very uncommon.