Answering the Philosophical "Problem of Evil" Argument: God & Logic
-
Peace.
I don't see the "problem of evil" as having a genuine solution, which is why the concept of God is often philosophically debunked. The only effective determination that can be manifested, on behalf of this, is the conclusion that (1) God is not completely good, (2) God is not all-knowing, or (3) God is not all-powerful. If he's not completely good, then the idea of him also creating evil is warranted. If he's not omniscient, then it can be determined that he doesn't necessarily know all of the causes of evil and is, therefore, unable to prevent it. If he's not omnipotent, then, even if he is omnibenevolent and omniscient, he may not have the power to effectively stop evil. From a logical perspective, those are the only alternatives. It doesn't make rational sense for an all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful god to create or allow evil within his design, at least not from how I understand things.
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace.
I don't see the "problem of evil" as having a genuine solution, which is why the concept of God is often philosophically debunked. The only effective determination that can be manifested, on behalf of this, is the conclusion that (1) God is not completely good, (2) God is not all-knowing, or (3) God is not all-powerful. If he's not completely good, then the idea of him also creating evil is warranted. If he's not omniscient, then it can be determined that he doesn't necessarily know all of the causes of evil and is, therefore, unable to prevent it. If he's not omnipotent, then, even if he is omnibenevolent and omniscient, he may not have the power to effectively stop evil. From a logical perspective, those are the only alternatives. It doesn't make rational sense for an all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful god to create or allow evil within his design, at least not from how I understand things.
Peace,
AhmadPeace Ahmad Bilal,
Where do you get your infomation from.
O0
-
Peace
Ahmad Bilal's arguement on the 'problem of evil' are classic arguements used invariably, at some point by all atheists to attack theism and has dogged christian theologists since centuries.Interestingly,this question never seems to have bothered muslim theologians and thinkers because the answers and very effective ones at that are there in 'the source' as someone has put it----the quran . We may have to zoom out a little and look at the forest instead of the tree.
Firstly God clearly tells us that we know only so much about him as He Wills.That means our limited Grey matter cannot really and truly comprehend God's Greatness.
Secondly,belief in the hereafter is reiterated so forcefully in the Quran that a believer is convinced that there is more to come after death,that perhaps life is an unending movie ,so to judge it by a few seconds of footage would be both illogical and unphilosophical.
Thirdly the Quran speaks of being Tested.What is a test without hardships and where is the joy in drinking without the thirst.At a more common man level,this may be the the answer to the problem of suffering which in my humble opinion is much more pertinent than the problem of evil.
Javed -
Salam StopS230 AND LO! Thy Sustainer said unto the angels "Behold, I am about to establish upon earth one who shall inherit it."22 They said "Wilt Thou place on it such as will spread corruption thereon and shed blood -whereas it is we who extol Thy limitless glory, and praise Thee, and hallow Thy name?" answered "Verily, I know that which you do not know."
The quoted bolded part brought to mind a new question for me. Unless evil existed before, how did the "angels" know that he who was being created would spread corruption and shed blood?
In many circles of those around quran, it is generally understood or sometimes stated that satan became evil when he rejected the creation of man and bowing to him, and that this is the first instance of evil in existence. But obviously the "angels" were already aware of such a thing as evil as evidenced by the question above that is quoted in bold. So who, before man was created, was spreading corruption and shedding blood?
Does anyone have any opinion, infomation or reference from quran for this?
-
Peace.
I don't see the "problem of evil" as having a genuine solution, which is why the concept of God is often philosophically debunked. The only effective determination that can be manifested, on behalf of this, is the conclusion that (1) God is not completely good, (2) God is not all-knowing, or (3) God is not all-powerful. If he's not completely good, then the idea of him also creating evil is warranted. If he's not omniscient, then it can be determined that he doesn't necessarily know all of the causes of evil and is, therefore, unable to prevent it. If he's not omnipotent, then, even if he is omnibenevolent and omniscient, he may not have the power to effectively stop evil. From a logical perspective, those are the only alternatives. It doesn't make rational sense for an all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful god to create or allow evil within his design, at least not from how I understand things.
Peace,
Ahmad
Very interesting. If the understanding that we all and everything ultimately returns to "God", which some understand as to mean is a part of "God", i.e. "God" is closer to you than your own jugular vein, then is "God" creating or allowing evil as a means to purify parts of "God"? I mean is hell or heaven different stages of development for the parts of "God", i.e. us, our souls, etc.; that "God" wants to live out through this existence?
-
Peace, Javed.
Firstly God clearly tells us that we know only so much about him as He Wills.That means our limited Grey matter cannot really and truly comprehend God's Greatness.
Secondly,belief in the hereafter is reiterated so forcefully in the Quran that a believer is convinced that there is more to come after death,that perhaps life is an unending movie ,so to judge it by a few seconds of footage would be both illogical and unphilosophical.
Thirdly the Quran speaks of being Tested.What is a test without hardships and where is the joy in drinking without the thirst.At a more common man level,this may be the the answer to the problem of suffering which in my humble opinion is much more pertinent than the problem of evil.The Qur'aan doesn't solve the "problem of evil" either. In the book, ALLAH (God) is described with the same characteristics as he's identified with in the Bible - omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence. The idea that we can't totally understand the greatness of God doesn't resolve this issue, since the same message is contained in the Bible - e.g. "How great is God beyond our understanding..." ; "Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?" ; etc. According to the Bible, we can't totally understand God either, and the same questions exist.
The concept of the hereafter ('afterlife' doesn't answer this question either. If anything, it presents a greater issue Why would God allow evil on Earth, which he ultimately formed by creating people 'imperfectly', and then punish people after death for acting in the manner in which they were created? Since the Qur'aan says that ALLAH (God) chooses who to guide and chooses who to lead astray, then he's ultimately responsible for whether we become believers or not. If we end up in hell, then ultimately, God chose to lead us astray and send us there. This is completely contradictory to characteristics assigned to ALLAH in the Qur'aan, such as mercy and justice.
Whether the question stems from the personification of God in the Qur'aan, Bible, Torah, or any other scripture related to the Abrahamic deity, the issue persists Why does ALLAH (God) allow evil? Or, on a more characterizing angle, why does he allow bad things to happen to good people? If it's for the purpose of 'testing' them, then what happens if they fail? If those good people succumb to the evil, wasn't it God who led them astray and caused them to sin? Why should they be punished for it?
What do you think of the Buddhistic concept of suffering? If they overcome the issue of suffering through the Buddhist doctrine (Dhamma), does this nullify God's ability to test them? What do you think?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Dear Ahmad,Peace.
You wrote"The idea of the greatness of God does not solve the issue".Actually it Does solve the issue.It just means thre are so many dimensions through which God operates of which we are fully clueless.We can only think in terms of temporo spatial and certain philosophical dimensions but there could be so much more about His greatness of which we r totally unaware and incapable of understanding and in some tiny recess somewhere in the infinite number of ways that God operates may be the answer to this vexed question of evil.Think in these lines dear Ahmed instead of thinking like a lawyer.
Buddhist and Hindu doctrines r totally philosophical,totally detached from reality.In practical terms the question of overcoming suffering cannot be both defined as well as implemented,so the question of nullifying Gods ability to test them does not arise.
Javed -
Peace, Javed.
You wrote"The idea of the greatness of God does not solve the issue".Actually it Does solve the issue.It just means thre are so many dimensions through which God operates of which we are fully clueless.We can only think in terms of temporo spatial and certain philosophical dimensions but there could be so much more about His greatness of which we r totally unaware and incapable of understanding and in some tiny recess somewhere in the infinite number of ways that God operates may be the answer to this vexed question of evil.Think in these lines dear Ahmed instead of thinking like a lawyer.
I can understand your viewpoint, and it poses a limited solution to the issue. What I was referring to, however, is a generalized understanding of the concept itself. Sure, we can say that we can never really understand ALLAH's greatness. However, we're still left with the question. Pretty much, if we adopt your viewpoint, then we're insisting that the question ("problem of evil" doesn't have a real solution at all, at least not one that we can ever grasp. While that determination may work for someone who already believes in the Qur'aan, the Abrahamic god (ALLAH) and the religion of Islam, it does nothing for the skeptic who is critical of those factors. If anything, it pushes him/her further away from Islam as a whole, since he/she is told that it can never truly be logically understood.
Here's my question for you How do you separate truth from falsehood? Outside of simply accepting the ideals of your belief system, what is your method of determining what it correct versus what is incorrect? Also, how do you determine what concepts to uphold from a literal (scientific) standpoint, given that the Qur'aan is not completely correct on all of them? For example, the Qur'aan, in one area, implies that the Earth is flat and that the Sun sets in a "muddy spring". You obviously know this isn't correct, or at least not literal. So, either the Qur'aan is wrong, or it's being allegorical in this instance. Do you merely accept what the Qur'aan says, or would you be willing to determine that the Qur'aan may perhaps be wrong on some things too?
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace,
What is so amusings about those who question God is that they think that their
intellegence is sufficient to solve questions about God.False Attributes
What happens is this they attribute to God attributes that they invent,
like God is bound by time or God cannot be everywhere or God does no exist
or God does not have control, these are false assertions. In any disscusion about
the God of Islam, the Quran must be the source, no matter what, and rather they
accept it or reject it is up to the individual, this is the nature of belief versus disbelief.
This is the gist of the matter.Who is more evil than one who attributes lies to GOD, while disbelieving in the truth that has come to him? Is Hell not a just requital for the disbelievers?
God is far above their claims
GOD be glorified; far above their claims.
Glory be to your Lord, the great Lord; far above their claims.
Be He glorified; He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, the Lord with the great dominion, far above their claims.Non-believers think they understand but they misunderstand.
Some of them listen to you, but we place veils on their hearts to prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of proof they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they come to argue with you, the disbelievers say, "These are tales from the past."
To quote Godsubmitter
Man has not enough neurons to understand God! Similarly as monkey has not enough neurons to play chess!God must be approached from Quran.
O0
-
I find your argument extremely weak because it is built on the premise that all evil originates from man.
Young babies that die from disease without a chance, natural disasters that wipe out hundreds of thousands, hunger, etc none of these come from humans.
Also I find it weakens your argument when you said in your original post that God chooses not to have power over certain things. This means that God is not all-good. It kind of goes against your point to say something like that. If God is all-good and wants the best for all humans and God also is all-powerful and has the power to make it so, how can he choose not to? If he chooses not to, then that would make him sort of good, not all-good.
-
Quote from mirjamnur on November 13, 2012, 015613 PM
Salam StopS230 AND LO! Thy Sustainer said unto the angels "Behold, I am about to establish upon earth one who shall inherit it."22 They said "Wilt Thou place on it such as will spread corruption thereon and shed blood -whereas it is we who extol Thy limitless glory, and praise Thee, and hallow Thy name?" answered "Verily, I know that which you do not know."The quoted bolded part brought to mind a new question for me. Unless evil existed before, how did the "angels" know that he who was being created would spread corruption and shed blood?
In many circles of those around quran, it is generally understood or sometimes stated that satan became evil when he rejected the creation of man and bowing to him, and that this is the first instance of evil in existence. But obviously the "angels" were already aware of such a thing as evil as evidenced by the question above that is quoted in bold. So who, before man was created, was spreading corruption and shedding blood?
Does anyone have any opinion, infomation or reference from quran for this?
Can anyone help with this? If you can't give reference from the quran, can you just give me what your opinion is and/or possibilities?
Thanks,
Salaam -
Can anyone help with this? If you can't give reference from the quran, can you just give me what your opinion is and/or possibilities?
Thanks,
SalaamMaybe there was the concept of evil and the thoughts of corruption without actually committing any crimes.
Maybe there was a male lion who killed all the cubs of a competitor and they thought they would not do this and considered it evil, not nature.
Maybe there were roaming story-tellers who told the others stories about evil people.
Maybe they had books or simulator games with simulated corruption and bloodshed.
I think this is sheer speculation and anything is possible. -
Maybe there was the concept of evil and the thoughts of corruption without actually committing any crimes.
Maybe there was a male lion who killed all the cubs of a competitor and they thought they would not do this and considered it evil, not nature.
Maybe there were roaming story-tellers who told the others stories about evil people.
Maybe they had books or simulator games with simulated corruption and bloodshed.
I think this is sheer speculation and anything is possible.Nonsense! and not from Quran.
O0
-
I haven't read much of this thread, so if I sound repetitive or if what I'm saying isn't relevant then my mistake.
I don't really see any problem of evil. Bad things exist to test us. We're given freedom of choice and as a result some people will make the wrong choices. The wrong choices they make and the natural hardships present in this world both serve to give us opportunities to become closer to The Creator.
-
Peace, answerseeker.
Very interesting. If the understanding that we all and everything ultimately returns to "God", which some understand as to mean is a part of "God", i.e. "God" is closer to you than your own jugular vein, then is "God" creating or allowing evil as a means to purify parts of "God"? I mean is hell or heaven different stages of development for the parts of "God", i.e. us, our souls, etc.; that "God" wants to live out through this existence?
I guess this is one way of looking at it... However, this isn't a reasonable conclusion in accordance with Islam, since the Qur'aan claims that God is 'completely good' and 'perfectly righteous'. If this is the case, then there aren't any parts of him that need "purification". This is how the concept came about that people are constantly being perfected by way of reincarnation, and they're constantly being raised to higher levels until they reach "God". Unfortunately, the Qur'aan rejects the concept of reincarnation as well...
Peace,
Ahmad
-
Peace, answerseeker.
The quoted bolded part brought to mind a new question for me. Unless evil existed before, how did the "angels" know that he who was being created would spread corruption and shed blood?
In many circles of those around quran, it is generally understood or sometimes stated that satan became evil when he rejected the creation of man and bowing to him, and that this is the first instance of evil in existence. But obviously the "angels" were already aware of such a thing as evil as evidenced by the question above that is quoted in bold. So who, before man was created, was spreading corruption and shedding blood?
Does anyone have any opinion, infomation or reference from quran for this?
There's no passage in the Qur'aan that justifies this position. However, there are passages in other writings, such as the Judaic Mishna, that promote the idea that modern humans weren't the first set of humans (as we understand them) created by God. This is also a concept promoted by various Christian groups, who proclaim the ideology concerning a pre-Adamic race of people who were eliminated by God - thus the statement in Genesis 128 instructing them to "replenish" (or RE-fill) the Earth.
Peace,
Ahmad