Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Apparently not but at least we know he's looking forward to the end of days...for better or worse.
Salaam friendly neighbourhood mod,
Soon we will come to know if he is right or not, the end of days is near, just 2 weeks from now on. (source wiki)
The good news for all of us is that we will not get the torture of the grave, because 21 december is on a friday yay (source Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 1367)Salaam,
Bender -
Well, you're wrong because Monday is the day to die. All other days pale by comparision, it is known.
In any case, any day can be the end of days for us, might as well plan for it. On which note, I wonder what happens to a wife whose husband is bound for hell? Is she part of someone else's harem of heavenly delights or does she get 4 nymphs of her own. Then again, maybe heaven is just being rid of the guy.
peace
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Then again, maybe heaven is just being rid of the guy.
Yes and opposite maybe true too...
6610 shows The God example for those who disbelieve woman Noah and woman Lot were under two servants from Our servants righteous so they both betrayed them so not they availed both of them from The God whatsoever and it was said enter the fire with the ones who enter
6611 and shows The God example to those who believe woman Pharaoh when said Lord build for me near You a house in the garden/paradise and save me from Pharaoh and his work and save me from the tribe the wrongdoers
Peace
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Well, you're wrong because Monday is the day to die. All other days pale by comparision, it is known.
Salaam,
Are you questioning Al-Tirmidhi o this is clear Kufr with capital K.
In any case, any day can be the end of days for us, might as well plan for it. On which note, I wonder what happens to a wife whose husband is bound for hell? Is she part of someone else's harem of heavenly delights or does she get 4 nymphs of her own. Then again, maybe heaven is just being rid of the guy.
peace
D
What about a believer who dies, and then his believing wife marries a other believer, and the new husband also dies then she marries another believer, do they have to share her in paradise.
Salaam,
Bender -
Yes and opposite maybe true too...
Yep...but the male apparently gets a goodly amount of substitution.
Salaam,
Are you questioning Al-Tirmidhi o this is clear Kufr with capital K.
Tirmidhi is small fry, if I had questioned Bukhari then you'd have a point ;D
What about a believer who dies, and then his believing wife marries a other believer, and the new husband also dies then she marries another believer, do they have to share her in paradise.
Excellent question. Maybe there's heavenly cloning involved, along with some sort of perfected total recall like memory implantation so that she's not dreaming of one while with another.
peace
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Help me understand, Mazhar.
It is manifestly obvious from the foregoing that "Polygamy-having many spouses" as a Custom-Rule and as source-an approach of pleasure is not allowed in the Grand Qur'aan. It is prescribed rather to meet exceptional situations arising in the society and as a responsibility-duty-obligation imposed upon men who can manage and afford additional liability of caring for the bereaved children and wives of dead husbands. The Ayah-Verbal Unitary Passage begins with a conditional clause explaining existence-emergence of a peculiar situation, whereby Allah the Exalted issues orders-ordinance to tackle the situation. It is an accepted principle of law that if the prescribed precondition does not exist, the action allowed to be taken or the granted permission ceases to exist. It is thus obvious that Allah the Exalted has NOT allowed marrying four four virgins. Thereby, there is no concept of "Polygamy" in Qur'aan.
Are you saying that peculiar situations which apparently include one man multiple wives scenarios due to various reasons here, apply in heaven as well? And why on earth or heaven would that be?
Obligation precludes pleasure? Basically based on the above, only men financially capable (and allegedly having a 'serious' bent of mind where sex is a moral duty that must be done for the good of all or maybe justify it as "but it's for the women, I'm but a mere tool"... and hence undertaken in a suitably grim determined fashion inclusive of hectic schedules and comprehensive planning which is kinda hilarious to imagine; the stoicism is hot though) of maintaining multiple women have the apparent right to enjoy multiple pleasures which they probably would partake in... to the hilt, if you will. Rich men have it good, really. If there is something other than sexual pleasures being talked about, do clue me in on what that might be.
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Surat 55.46 to 72.
Perhaps you will compromise on this issue while enjoying life in one of the Gardens with your husband.
Peace Mazhar,
Unfortunately, I cannot. My mental health is important to me as well. I would initiate the divorce process, and with God lies my Judgement.
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Are you saying that peculiar situations which apparently include one man multiple wives scenarios due to various reasons here, apply in heaven as well? And why on earth or heaven would that be?
Earthly life has its own problems and situations. One is that of pairing for sex. Husband and Wife is the ideal pair.
Problem area emerges when men die and leave behind wives--now without a male partner. Number of women increase. What could be the best solution, let them re-marry. A widow may get an unmarried man, an ideal situation for her. However, if they are larger in number, they have but to opt marry already a married man. Why would a married man like to wed with a widowed woman? Only if he is made duty-bound. So the commdanding order-ordinance obliging them for it.
Paradise is something which is earned-purchased. Women win the race and get in the Paradise larger in number than the men who arrived in Paradise. What is the demand and solution of such situation.
Ordinary Men are wed with four wives. Information rather fascinating for men is that they all are made virgins when resurrected. So it is not obligation oriented but pleasure indicative. -
Peace Mazhar,
Would it not be possible for the widowed women to remain chaste? Must a nikah always constitute to sex? Is that momentary pleasure a reward for having taken on an additional financial responsibility? Is that momentary pleasure worth it when it stabs one's wife in the heart a thousand times over? Must we hurt one another so terribly and destroy our initial marriages.. in the name of justice? There must be other options...I do believe there are..
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Earthly life has its own problems and situations. One is that of pairing for sex. Husband and Wife is the ideal pair.
Problem area emerges when men die and leave behind wives--now without a male partner. Number of women increase. What could be the best solution, let them re-marry. A widow may get an unmarried man, an ideal situation for her. However, if they are larger in number, they have but to opt marry already a married man. Why would a married man like to wed with a widowed woman? Only if he is made duty-bound. So the commdanding order-ordinance obliging them for it.
Paradise is something which is earned-purchased. Women win the race and get in the Paradise larger in number than the men who arrived in Paradise. What is the demand and solution of such situation.
Ordinary Men are wed with four wives. Information rather fascinating for men is that they all are made virgins when resurrected. So it is not obligation oriented but pleasure indicative.Women win the race? How? Where is this? If anything it's the men that are dying earlier in your scenarios so the gold should be theirs. Is there any statistic that shows there are way more women than men ever created? If not and there aren't any, then why is there some kind of time dependent clause? Do the women who lived in the 19th century get to heaven faster than the women in the 21st? Are the women who lived as multiple wives due to a war etc for example in these scenarios, be deliberately lumped with the same conditions in heaven when some other women in non war situations for example in these scenarios, got one man for the rest of their lives (which you claim and accept is ideal) and later on too? Why? Were the women in the former situation...different than the latter?
Then, there are apparently exceptional cases where men would be 'duty bound' to marry more than one woman i.e. not the norm as in your article...then why would men ordinarily be wed with four wives? Ordinary men even. Information that is fascinating to a woman as well, since it's a woman that feels the pain of virginity really...but why would being virgins after resurrection point towards pleasure?
I'm actually mesmerised by this pov tbh...I couldn't imagine such scenarios in heaven even if there was a pitchfork pointed at me.
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Women win the race? How? Where is this?
We are advised to try taking lead in the race towards the Paradise.
And you people hasten emulously aiming at seeking protection and forgiveness, which is ensured subject to condition by the Elevated Messenger to you as promise from your Sustainer Lord, and towards the Paradise.
Her capaciousness-width is that of the Skies and the Earth.
The Paradise is prepared exclusively for those who endeavour for ultimate success remaining mindful and cautious, avoiding unrestrained conduct in reverence and fear of Allah the Exalted. -
Not necessarily if it is the marriage/Nikah of a she-doll and he-doll as some small girls in our villages play.
Peace Mazhar,
I hope you are not mocking me.
Yes, and I believe it could take place take this way, out of respect for the first wife's relationship with her husband. The issue here is not in taking in the orphans, managing their wealth, spending on them from one's own wealth and resources, or even sharing one's inheritance with them. The issue here is the nature of the relationship. It really just boils down to the sex and romantic aspect of it. In regard to this, I have the same feelings as Dawn
What has sex and romance got to do with the ultimate goal of helping the vulnerable? For this, I don't have an answer for her or even myself. This what gnaws at my heart.
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Salaam Released, Savage Carrot, Dawngorgeous,
My wife and I have been married for 16 years now. I have two very simple questions
WHY do I have to marry a woman (young or old) in order to help her? In other words where is the explanation (in Quran or elsewhere) given that a man cannot help a woman unless he is married to her?
WHY can't I help a woman without marrying her? The financial situation DOES NOT change if I marry her. If I choose to pay her rent or mortgage for her, pay for her weekly groceries, utility bills and give her spending money, the money I am providing her remains the same whether I marry her or not. The financial situation itself does not change. So the question that begs an answer is why I cannot do those things for her without marrying her? How does it change financially if I marry her or not? Can everyone here see how ridiculous this whole thing is?
Released, you mentioned that you cannot and will not live in a polygamous marriage. Imagine how all of the other women feel who are forced to live that way against their will. The difference between you and those other women is that you are voicing your concerns and made up your mind that you will not live that kind of life. But you have to know that you are not the only woman who feels the way you do about this issue. I have seen with my very own eyes and on numerous occasions what polygamy does to a family. I am speaking about the FIRST wife and family and how their lives were destroyed due to the man taking on another Wife (cough, cough - Sex Partner - cough, cough). All of the polygamous lifestyles I've witnessed have ended and ended very badly. One woman who was a second wife in one situation I've seen would routinely beat the crap out of the first wife and the husband did nothing about it. This second wife was quite a "Looker" compared to his first wife and she also had quite a bit of money that the husband used to finance a restaurant he opened. Hhmmmm. There was another one who was my wife's friend at the time. She was a big woman and her pathetic excuse of a husband was a little guy (who has a thing for big girls by the way) and she beat the brakes off of him when he went and got a second wife and then she left him. These are just two of many cases I have seen where polygamy is concerned.
Just because a woman who is a co-wife is silent on the situation does not mean she's happy or okay with it. Some women have no choice in the matter in a lot of so-called Muslim Countries. But I can assure you that you are not the only woman who feels the way you do about the prospects of living a polygamous life. If you can't accept if for yourself (and I bear personal witness that most women ain't feeling this crap at all) then that should be an indication that something is terribly wrong with the idea of polygamy as it has shown me that it really, really hurts people and destroy families and relationships. It is a one-sided, unfair situation which does not offer any bigger solution than the welfare system that is in place in the Progressive, non Muslim Countries.
On a related note, some people may think that the men who believe in this and promote it are not necessarily chauvinist. I beg to differ. There are many, many, many marriages out there where the woman is either the sole bread winner or brings home more bacon than the husband. I wonder how those men would react to the idea of their wives taking on additional husbands in an effort to financially assist and support them. It is my understanding (and I base this solely on observations I have made over the years) that those men who promote, support and otherwise defend the idea of polygamy do so to let their wives and other people know that they will certainly consider taking another wife if they so choose and being that a man does not have to marry a woman in order to help her makes it obvious that he is marrying her for a different reason. They see that as an option for an extra sex partner.
My message to all women reading this; Please do not fool yourselves and please do not allow these...ummm...men...fool you either.
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Peace Damon,
I get what you're saying and agree with you for the most part. Where I have reservations in my opinions regarding what the quran might mean is where it involves different ways of doing things for different people. Meaning keeping the options open. I am loath to say "this is the only way it's meant to be" when it might not have to be.
Thanks for the anecdotes...polygyny for example in Pakistan is an option which is taken with mixed results. Some are happy with the system and some aren't depending on how it's done. I knew a lawyer who chose to be in such a relationship because the other wife couldn't have kids and they all seemed and said they were happy as much as married people can be at the end of the day to an outsider. There were other women I knew as well, one of which actually pushed her husband to do it because she couldn't take the sexual attention and just wanted the security of marriage. People are crazy. Maybe things weren't rosy and maybe they were regardless of what they said...we wouldn't really know much of the factors unless we were living it. Such a thing would always be a rarity rather than the norm given free choice imo, unless it is being forced upon the populace in the form of cultural norms/pressure/dictates by groups/men/authorities etc.
As far one of the understandings of multiple marriages in the quran goes, apparently marrying multiple women for any reason other than creating multiple families for orphans is a no no, so the above marriages shouldn't have taken place anyways.Would multiple marriages for the sake of creating real multiple families for orphans work? I don't know. I don't know of anyone who has done so. I can imagine the situation and am on the fence regarding it in theory. It could work depending on the type of people involved, the conditions and with free choice. If it doesn't, nothing stopping people from divorcing at the end of the day. So, yeah...maybe it's viable but like I said, I'd need to see realistic examples of it rather than theoretical "it's the best thing for all" or "it'll never work".
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Peace Mazhar,
I hope you are not mocking me.
Yes, and I believe it could take place take this way, out of respect for the first wife's relationship with her husband. The issue here is not in taking in the orphans, managing their wealth, spending on them from one's own wealth and resources, or even sharing one's inheritance with them. The issue here is the nature of the relationship. It really just boils down to the sex and romantic aspect of it. In regard to this, I have the same feelings as Dawn
What has sex and romance got to do with the ultimate goal of helping the vulnerable? For this, I don't have an answer for her or even myself. This what gnaws at my heart.
No mocks, just ground realities.
Financial issues of father-orphan youngesters are dealt with separately. No denying that lot many people usurp such properties.
In Ayah under study, the apprehension is about relationship with father orphan children. It is about relational-sentiment-love-affection-attention care inequality between such and children of living fathers. Marriage which has inevitable sex aspect causes relationship of Man with womb of his wife. This helps and strenghens feelings of love and affection with her children also who were born of her earlier husband. Qur'aan tells that once intercourse is done with a woman, her daughter from first husband becomes non-permissible. If this is not done with her and she is divorced, her daughter on becoming mature remains permissible for marriage. This might indicate the delecacy of sex aspect in marriage.