Evolution or Intelligent design ?
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perhaps you are not understanding me. No where did i say Allah is a man that looks down with hands and legs. that upsurd. Allah is formless. nothing compares to the Creator. Allah surrounds everything be he is not everything. why can you not grasp the gravity of the situation? Allah created everything out of nothing the earth the stars the galaxies that formed from gas and intense heat, all these things matter and anti matter etc are all created properties, everything created will perish..
All the cosmos and many others OBEY Allahs laws that he has place in the universe, gravity, time space etc. all the laws of physics are implemented by the creator.
let me use an example a cheesey one yet it may get the point across. If you have ever watched star wars, "the force" is described much like Allah, a force of intelligence that is everywhere we turn, yet it is unseen, it works through the creation but it is NOT the creation. the force was an immeasurable thing that binded and created all things.
Allah is immeasurable. and everything in creation can be measured, and has divisible quantities. Allah is indivisible. "the one" this is the concept of tawheed.
sadly to many muslims take " i am every where you turn" to literally mean that everything (pantheism) is Allah. in doing so much like suffis and bahais people begin to self glorify and thing THEY are Allah. shirk in the highest degree. there is no comparison to Allah. that goes for all of creation. what does Allah say? when everything is destroyed all that will remain is his face(metaphorical of course) hence quite clear Allah has no begining and no end. he is not the creation but he surrounds and guides and manages it. he works through the creation.
nothing compares to the Lord of the Worlds.
the universe had a begining and it has an end. and the Quran is quite clear that Allah has no begining and no end. so to even associate these things with Allah and say Allah is the universe is a gross assumption.
Salam
Words has semantic problems... let's do this using math notations...
I hope your math is quite good..Let
God =Which give us
1 not equal to
2 not equal to
5 not equal to
100 not equal to
0 not equal to
100 <
200 <= 1 X
/ = 1
A set of { 0 .. 1000000000000000000000000000000 } is within { 0 .. }
1000000000000000000000000000000 <http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity
Salam / Peace
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Do people here distinguish between chemistry and alchemy?
Is astronomy the same as - or similar to - astrology?The one is based on facts, confirmed predictions and reproducible experiments and the other is wishful thinking or superstition.
ID is designed, but not intelligently. It is not based on any form or branch of science, even though the Christian inventors never cease to claim this.The comments above show that very few people have actually read the books on ID and IC or have understood the principles and their refutations. What astounds me the most what is the problem with looking at evolution and the underlying theory realistically? Does evolution threaten or in any way even touch religious beliefs?
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Does evolution threaten or in any way even touch religious beliefs?
Yes it threatened the 'pride' of a sentient species on earth.. who always refuses that their ancestor were once a primate.. and they share some 'degree of kinship' with other primates (and also other non-primate species)..
Can you imagine what 'Adam's full name' will be in semitic culture?
Adam bin Bonobo bin Chimpanze bin MonkeyThey always insist that their species is the most 'unique species' on earth thus their root ancestor was being born out of nowhere.. "Hocus Pocus" and their root ancestor was born..
Salam / Peace
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who always refuses that their ancestor were once a primate..
I don't understand. Are you aware of the fact that humans ARE primates?
and they share some 'degree of kinship' with other primates (and also other non-primate species)..
Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to the great ape species. Not just "some degree".
Can you imagine what 'Adam's full name' will be in semitic culture?
Adam bin Bonobo bin Chimpanze bin MonkeyI am beginning to understand you don't have a working knowledge of evolution, how it works and what it does.
They always insist that their species is the most 'unique species' on earth thus their root ancestor was being born out of nowhere.. "Hocus Pocus" and their root ancestor was born..
Salam / Peace
Who is "they"? No, evolution is a fact and not dependant on opinion or pride. It does nothing to creation and does not have an opinion on creation.
Evolution does not consider god or a creator. It does not consider Adam or any specific person, just the development of species and how they slowly developed from single cell organisms to complex organic structures.This is why I asked the question about alchemy and chemistry. Does chemistry concern itself with alchemy? No! If you want to believe something, it is your choice.
Just don't mistake "Intelligent Design" for an alternative to evolution. It has no predictive capabilities and is not based on anything tested or formalised. Just like alchemy.
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I don't understand. Are you aware of the fact that humans ARE primates?
And can you understand any single word that I said???
I'm explaining to you why they don't (want) to believe in evolution...
Nonetheless believe shall not in any way change or alter the hard fact...
In which, homo sapiens is the result of evolution and it's still going on as we speak.. -
And can you understand any single word that I said???
I'm explaining to you why they don't (want) to believe in evolution...
Nonetheless believe shall not in any way change or alter the hard fact...
In which, homo sapiens is the result of evolution and it's still going on as we speak..If I misunderstood you, sorry. It really does look as though I do not understand what you are saying.
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Shalom Aleikhem,
I regret to inform you that from my experience, what I have seen is that overwhelming majority of those who reject Evolution has no clue about it. They do not even know the basic fundamentals. Their idea is something like " A tornado going through a junkyard resulting in a fully functional F22 Raptor". If that was true representation of Evolution, would you accept it ?
Jafar pointed out something important. Our arrogance and ego always stops us from learning the truth.
The scientific back up that the theory of Evolution has is so strong, that we would have to discard a HUGE part of what we learnt from Modern Science for Evolution to be wrong. When I say HUGE, you can assume that I am talking about almost everything we learnt in the last 100 years. (from relevant branches of Science)
Peace
---------------- Student of Allah -
subhanallah at the verses you posted. but Allah is not the creation. after the creation has perished only Allah will remain. the cause to the effect. Allah is the cause. the universe and creation is the affect. PEACE
In my opinion you run into a problem with that statement as Allah states numerous times He is everywhere thus He is the creation BUT and I emphasise the but because as you also state He is beyond His creation so we will never comprehend Him fully and it would be incorrect of us to personify or limit Allah to creation.
I believe panentheism is the best conceptualised notion of Allah...the universe being contained 'within' Allah and yet Allah being 'outside' the universe. Seems odd at first but we have to take into account that we are confined to dimensions while Allah is beyond them and within them.
PEACE
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Peace.
Regardless of instituted viewpoints in connection with the secular concept of evolution, we have to face the hard fact evolution, via natural selection, poses a huge problem to theological notions relating to creation. From a philosophical perspective, it only takes a little back-tracking. If we evolved from a lower (different) species of being, and all of life ultimately stems from the pre-production of a single-celled organism, then how did God create (e.g. shape/form) Adam from dust/mud? The same skeptical inquiries are becoming increasingly prevalent from a cosmological standpoint too. If the universe can ultimately form (and dissolve) itself, which is the theme of a very well-written book by Professor Stephen Hawking, then what did God do? How did he create the entire physical presentation of the universe in 8 days? If everything can ultimately form itself, then what is the "use" of God at all?
In ancient times, people used the existence of "gods" and "goddesses" as key explanations for everything they didn't know and/or understand. When they felt rain pouring from above their heads, they began asserting that the "gods" must be sad and, therefore, crying. When they heard thunder strike in the distance, they asserted that the "gods" must be angry. The Greeks and Romans even developed elaborate tales of how and why the seasons change, such as stories about Artemis and Persephone. In today's world, those gods and goddesses are obsolete - not because the prevalent themes don't relay a message, but because we have no further "use" for those gods. We know why and how those natural changes and formations occur from a scientific standpoint, and we recognize that attributing those things to various deities is foolish and irrational.
Professor Stephen Hawking has already asserted that, given the current cosmological arguments with regard to formation and development of the universe, the idea of God as a creator is "completely unnecessary". Many, if not most, cosmologists and astrophysicists agree with him. Professor Richard Dawkins, a prominent biologist, has already asserted that the idea of God shaping, or even generating, the various species of life on our planet is ridiculous, and the mainstream sector of biology agrees with his viewpoint. So, with this in mind, how long will it be before people begin to catagorize the Judeo-Christian deity (e.g. Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, etc.) with the likes of Zeus, Apollo and Prometheus - mythical figures who have been logically proven to be unnecessary and, therefore, nonexistent?
Science is shifting things in that general direction, whether with regard to cosmology and the formation of the universe, or with regard to biology and the natural variation of species. Eventually, the need for a god may become obsolete.
Peace,
Ahmad
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My only issue with the Theory of Evolution (man and ape sharing a common ancestor) is Social Darwinism, which is a racist philosophy. I remember reading excerpts in my Biology class from The Origin of Species then I checked out the book from the library, discovering its full title which is really On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
There is no doubt in my mind that God could guide life through evolution on a massive scale over millions and millions of years leading up to Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but it troubles me that such a model can be and has been used to justify racism through science (go to Apricity or Storm Front forums and browse a bit to see what I mean). My pride does not prevent me from accepting that our ancestors once walked on four limbs, but if I were a black person, I'd be offended to know my race was once considered "less evolved" or as the "missing link"
The socio-cultural implications of macro-evolution does not negate the science but it makes me wonder.
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769 alludes to the evolution of Man. God has tweeked the Humans after the generation of Noah and "Increased in their creation". that could be understood as evolving or evolution
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Peace,
Evolution is an intelligent design!
Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.
And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some
walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.Have they not seen how GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it? This is easy for GOD to do
Say, "Roam the earth and find out the origin of life." For GOD will thus initiate the creation in the Hereafter. GOD is Omnipotent
He is the One who created you in stages.
O0
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Peace,
Evolution is an intelligent design!
Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay.
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.
And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some
walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.Have they not seen how GOD initiates the creation, then repeats it? This is easy for GOD to do
Say, "Roam the earth and find out the origin of life." For GOD will thus initiate the creation in the Hereafter. GOD is Omnipotent
He is the One who created you in stages.
And here I was, thinking we are in the 21st century and the information age. I was soooo wrong! Evolution is NOT goal or result oriented.
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Life on this planet is carbon based. Not water based. Just because our cells consist more than half of water does not mean we are "created from" water.
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While humans do consist of some materials also found in clay, we consist of more elements and different elements NOT found in clay. It would be more accurate to state that we were created from squirrel.
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The next time you bite your lip or wear glasses remember how perfect you are.
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What happened to creatures walking on 6, 8 or 88 legs? Forgotten? Why mention only 2-legged or 4-legged creatures. Does the Bible mention more legs?
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No, that unfortunately is the problem nobody has seen it or experienced or has found any kind or type of evidence for it. Sorry. But if we look at nature we find evidence galore. Strange.
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no data
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I was created in stages? The 23 Carnegie stages? Or the 3 wrong stages found in Greek medicine?
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Can anybody explain how human beings were created from clay/mud through an evolutionary timeline? Did we become human and accountable the moment Allah gave us recognition? Then how does clay factor in? If we were created from it, so were all of our predecessors...?
In verse , a variation of the last word means Evolution.
http//i.imgur.com/pAqSb.pngThis makes me question Creationism. I still have many doubts, like clay/mud, social darwinism, abiogenesis...
*just seeing StopS's new post, I've been led to wonder if clay could actually mean carbon...
We created man from an extract of clay. (Qur'an, 2312)
but all life is made up of carbon...not just people. hmm -
Can anybody explain how human beings were created from clay/mud through an evolutionary timeline? Did we become human and accountable the moment Allah gave us recognition? Then how does clay factor in? If we were created from it, so were all of our predecessors...?
Almost ALL civilisations had clay as the basis for life.
In the Akkadian (~2000 BCE) epic of Atra-Hasis we find not just another creation story, but details such as the creation of man as coming from clay and the blood and flesh of the god We-ilu. Because the gods had problems with their creation, they wiped them out almost completely and started from scratch. Almost all ancient civilisations, whether
Canaans
Sumerians
Babylonians
Egyptians
African tribes
Incas
Greeks
Burmese
Kumis
Korkus
Maoris
Hopis
.. and many, many others have clay as the basis for life, so it is not surprising for me to find it in the various later scriptures of the Jews, Christians and Muslims as well. -
Why did almost all civilizations believe in a clay creation story?
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Shalom Aleikhem,
My only issue with the Theory of Evolution (man and ape sharing a common ancestor) is Social Darwinism, which is a racist philosophy. I remember reading excerpts in my Biology class from The Origin of Species then I checked out the book from the library, discovering its full title which is really On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
Well, that does not disprove evolution. What it tells us is that we should not be living by Darwinistic means and ideas when it comes to our social life. Having problem accepting "E=mc^2" because it would mean that a gram of dung potentially holds within the same amount of energy as a gram of gold would be funny and comparable to your objection. Having learn't what Einstein discovered, we did not go and start using that as a philosophy and start selling dung jewelry. In the same way, we should not resort to a darwinistic social model. It would be a really bad idea.
Oh, and by the way, "Preservation of Favored Races" does not stand in the title of the book as an indication/hint for advocating racism. For example, lets take a country, mmm, lets say, Egypt. If do not allow Egyptians to use modern medicine, health benefits, proper food, shelter, technology, and keep them that way for lets say 3000 years. Wouldn't the Egyptians be in trouble and potentially be inferior when compared to another set of people that were given everything necessary to prosper ? That is the favor Darwin was talking about. If you have 2 variants of the same species in a given environment, one is fit for the environment and the other is not, who do you think will be favored by nature ? Let me dumb it down even more. If you had 2 variants of a species, one that can swim and one that cant. Now if you throw them in water by whatever means, wouldn't the ones who can swim be favored ?
I really don't see why the use of the word "race" has to misunderstood like that.
There is no doubt in my mind that God could guide life through evolution on a massive scale over millions and millions of years leading up to Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but it troubles me that such a model can be and has been used to justify racism through science (go to Apricity or Storm Front forums and browse a bit to see what I mean). My pride does not prevent me from accepting that our ancestors once walked on four limbs, but if I were a black person, I'd be offended to know my race was once considered "less evolved" or as the "missing link"
The socio-cultural implications of macro-evolution does not negate the science but it makes me wonder.
One should not mix up socio-cultural things with the understanding we have of Evolution. There is a good reason for that. Evolution via natural selection is not the only way forward. We do walk around with a lot of evolutionary baggage from our past. A man is expected to look as masculine as he can look. But if you think about it, in today's society, there is no reason for a man to be that strong. Men no longer depend on inefficient tools (stones and bare hand) and have to protect us and other from wild animals. Surely in our past, that feature was favored. But in today's society, success isn't measured that way. Look at Bill gates, he does not have the body of a pro-body builder. Would you consider him less successful in life ? Would you say that he can not provide for and protect his family ? I hope not. But its still deeply rooted within us to expect men to look a certain way. My point is, we are far too complex beings for anyone to dismiss our potentials based on inherently racist claims. Evolution is still going on, and nature is till favoring the best ones. Its just that in case of complex societies (like ours), it is not easy to measure/quantify that.
Peace
------------- Student of Allah
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Salaam,
There is no evolution in the Qur'an. Variation within species is not evolution, that is a misapplication of a purposely vague term. Evolution as a term that is accepted by secularists is the grand statement that all life has descended with modification from some 'simple' first organism(s) (there are various theories actually).
Micro and macroevolution. If you believe that micro can add up to macro, you are truly lacking in knowledge and intelligence. I am sorry, but I have no mercy for such blatant ignorance on a topic like this. I have studied this topic for ten years now at least and I am sick of liberal Muslims (and many qur'an alone muslim) spouting this complete garbage.
If you want a proper analogy, micro is like jumping and macro is like flying. Jump all you want, you will never fly. There are issues of constrained coding in DNA and morphology which completely destroy this line of reasoning that lots of micro leads to macro.
The Qur'an is very clear on this issue, and I am willing to debate anyone on this topic.
The scientific evidence has completely crushed the grand theory of evolution and now demonstrates the clear design of life. Secular scientists and their muslim/christian lapdogs hold on to the theory of evolution because it is the only politically correct one and because for atheists, there are no allowable alternatives. That is the only reason the theory (more correctly, hypothesis) survives.
To that end I recommend the following links to educate yourself (you can search within them to get copious amounts of data and refutations of evolutionist bs).
http//www.evolutionnews.org
http//www.arn.org/blogs/index.php/literature
http//darwins-god.blogspot.com/
http//crev.info/ (A Christian creationist website, but this section is an excellent and updated resource on articles and finding)Salaam to all and if you think the Qur'an accepts or allows for evolution, bring it on, I am ready to debate.
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Salaam,
There is no evolution in the Qur'an. Variation within species is not evolution, that is a misapplication of a purposely vague term. Evolution as a term that is accepted by secularists is the grand statement that all life has descended with modification from some 'simple' first organism(s) (there are various theories actually).
Micro and macroevolution. If you believe that micro can add up to macro, you are truly lacking in knowledge and intelligence. I am sorry, but I have no mercy for such blatant ignorance on a topic like this. I have studied this topic for ten years now at least and I am sick of liberal Muslims (and many qur'an alone muslim) spouting this complete garbage.
If you want a proper analogy, micro is like jumping and macro is like flying. Jump all you want, you will never fly. There are issues of constrained coding in DNA and morphology which completely destroy this line of reasoning that lots of micro leads to macro.
The Qur'an is very clear on this issue, and I am willing to debate anyone on this topic.
The scientific evidence has completely crushed the grand theory of evolution and now demonstrates the clear design of life. Secular scientists and their muslim/christian lapdogs hold on to the theory of evolution because it is the only politically correct one and because for atheists, there are no allowable alternatives. That is the only reason the theory (more correctly, hypothesis) survives.
To that end I recommend the following links to educate yourself (you can search within them to get copious amounts of data and refutations of evolutionist bs).
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But when it comes to having a conversation about a specific topic, I think some definitions are in order.
Evolution what exactly is your definition?
Secularism what exactly is your definition?
Micro-Evolution what exactly is your definition?
constrained coding in DNA what exactly is your definition?
Secular scientists what exactly is your definition?
constrained coding in morphology what exactly is your definition?
atheist what exactly is your definition?
theory vs hypothesis what exactly is your definition?
What is the difference between the "Theory of Evolution and the "grand theory of evolution"?What is your proof for your claim "there are various theories actually"
What is your proof for your claim "all life has descended with modification from some 'simple' first organism"
What is your proof for your claim "scientific evidence has completely crushed the grand theory of evolution"
"atheists, there are no allowable alternatives" what do atheists have to do with evolution? Would atheists all stop being atheists because the theory of evolution turns out to be wrong?
What is an "evolutionist"? Is that similar to a "gravitationalist"? Or an "atomist"?Have you, in your 10 years of study, ever bothered to look for evidence for what you propose here or what your links propose? Have you ever bothered to look for evidence and not just doubts?
Do you see all scientific theories as giant conspiracies which are actually based on a hunch? Or are all other scientific theories valid and based on facts - just evolution is not?
Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Only, if you are of the opinion you can fly it might lead to a painful awakening to reality. Maybe it's time you checked whether your opinion is based on wishful thinking or facts. It remains your choice.
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Peace pshorg.
Quote Salaam to all and if you think the Qur'an accepts or allows for evolution, bring it on, I am ready to debate.Evolution is Divinely Controlled
We learn from the Quran that evolution is a divinely designed fact
Life began in water "From water we initiated all living things."
Humans are not descendants of monkeys,however they had to undergo an evolution process "He started the creation of man from mud."
Man created from "aged" mud "I am creating the human being from 'aged' clay."
Evolution is possible only within a given same species.
Peace.