Am I still a Muslim?

[StopS]

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans.

You seem so serene and unwavering, so I hope you don't mind my asking you some questions as you have made me curious.

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
   And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

Do you think a loving couple should not have sex unless they are married? What I am referring to is the experimentation phase that young people go through when finding out in life as well as partners what is important for them.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people.

Yes, this is sad - but then, what can you do if students walk out of a biology lecture when it comes to evolution and dogmatic belief trumps scientific facts? You seem quite versatile. Are you in a Muslim majority country?

3. I don't believe in angels.
   This is curious. Why not?

Do you really believe angels and other beings exist? I mean outside of our imagination in the real world? Made from light of what frequency or wavelength?
Our range of what we can see of the light spectrum is very limited, so humans have built all sorts of sensors to extend our capabilities - yet to my knowledge no angel has ever been realistically picked up. So what makes you believe angels exist anyway?

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
   Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress.

While I would not cite the Daily Mail as a source, especially not when it refers to brain damaged patients here, I understand the point. What do you think is the benefit of prayer over other ways of mental relaxation?
In its 5000 year history, prayer has never shown any effect - other than brain stimulation. I don't experience stress, so I'm curious what other say about it and how they combat it.

But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

Outside of Iran, Pakistan and KSA? "Many nations". I don't know any. Do you have examples?
Most countries have recently granted women equal rights, so the approach of "especially by women" should not really exist in 2012. Can you qualify this?

7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
   Yes. I do believe it happened.

Do you have a reason why you believe this if there is no physical evidence for this?

the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things.

The Koran mentions sperm (not semen), an ovum, the process of fertilisation and the womb? Where?
I hope 2312-14 are not your source.

humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us

No, Sir, in my experience there is no indication whatsoever that anything described in the Koran precedes modern science.

Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things.

You believe this in spite of black holes or even asteroids destroying planets, a meteor wiping out dinosaurs here on Earth, the Andromeda galaxy on a collision course with us and our sun eating up Earth in a few billion years?

This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Do you knowingly ignore diseases, poisons, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hail, radiation, droughts, tornadoes, epidemics, lightning, floods, avalanches, fires, asteroids, etc. or you believe this in spite of all evidence to the contrary?

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen.

When do you believe the Koran literally and when does it get too much and you need to resort to the miracle claim?
Like the splitting of the moon? Literal? Miracle? Future event?
541 The Hour has come near, and the moon has split .

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
   He is Merciful and He is also Just.

Don't you think this is a logical contradiction?
Just = adequate punishment
Merciful = less than adequate punishment

Humans were given free will.

So there is no omniscience?

The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills.

Sorry, but there are still some open points.
Why do you think were the revelations not sent to some tribes, who have no word for god or any reference to a god in their culture?
If there are humans who will not listen, why test them? Is god omniscient?
If humans are created, why do they require testing? Is god not omniscient?
If god creates and wills anyway, why the test?
And most important, why, if god creates and wills, are almost all humans punished for eternity?

[Seek_Peace]

I don't mind questions at all. haha Thank you for saying so, I enjoy serenity so I like it when others seem to think of me as being serene.

Do you think a loving couple should not have sex unless they are married? What I am referring to is the experimentation phase that young people go through when finding out in life as well as partners what is important for them.
I believe that the body should be treated with respect and to give one's body to another in that way is a show of great intimacy. Just love is not a sufficient prerequisite for sex, in my view. In my opinion, such a moment should remain only between a married couple. That is because marriage is the highest commitment one can make to another. Also, considering that pregnancy may result from sex, it just adds to the importance of the parents having established what they hope may be a lifelong commitment.

Yes, this is sad - but then, what can you do if students walk out of a biology lecture when it comes to evolution and dogmatic belief trumps scientific facts? You seem quite versatile. Are you in a Muslim majority country?
Versatile? How so? No, I live in a Western country with there is quite a bit of diversity in faiths and ethnicities.
The evolution of humans is a theory, not fact. Whether or not humans are descended from now extinct hominids, I cannot say. I do not see evolution and Islam as being incompatible. I do not see science as contracting beliefs that come from Islam. If people walk out of a lecture because they don't agree with what is being taught, I don't really mind. It is their business whether or not they want to listen to something but to attack someone because they have an opposing view or to insult them for it is both disrespectful and offensive. I've been in biology lectures with a large number of Muslims and when the topic of evolution came up, and in which I am sure there were other theists, and I didn't see a single person get up and leave. Evolution is taught is many Muslim countries and science foundations in about a dozen Muslim countries have agreed with the theory of evolution. But regardless of whether or not Muslims or other theists agree or disagree with evolution, I do not see that as justifying insulting people's beliefs or views.

Do you really believe angels and other beings exist? I mean outside of our imagination in the real world? Made from light of what frequency or wavelength?
Our range of what we can see of the light spectrum is very limited, so humans have built all sorts of sensors to extend our capabilities - yet to my knowledge no angel has ever been realistically picked up. So what makes you believe angels exist anyway?
We are not able to sense God with our five senses or with sensors, yet so many still believe in Him. I believe in God. My belief in a Being that I cannot sense comes along with an acceptance that there exists things and beings that we are unable to sense or create tools for sensing them. I believe that is because God willed it to be so, as He has power over all things. So I believe in angels because I believe in God.

I never found difficulty in believing in them so I never struggled with the question of how I could believe in them. Because I will give a short explanation of the story of how I came to believe that they existed firmly. When I wanted to explore my beliefs, reasons behind them, whether or not I was religious or Muslim, I decided to dissociate myself from any label (ie. "Muslim", etc). After questioning, research, and deep reflection I came to identify my belief that there is One God, Islam as a true religion and the Qur'an as the Word of God. As such, I accept His Word entirely and He has mentioned angels in the Qur'an. Therefore, due to my belief in God, due to my acceptance of the Qu'ran as His Word, I accept that there exists angels, among other things.

While I would not cite the Daily Mail as a source, especially not when it refers to brain damaged patients here, I understand the point. What do you think is the benefit of prayer over other ways of mental relaxation?
In its 5000 year history, prayer has never shown any effect - other than brain stimulation. I don't experience stress, so I'm curious what other say about it and how they combat it.
I don't usually use it as a source either but I wasn't really focusing on the source rather than the relevance of the article. But I understand what you mean.

Brain stimulation is not an insignificant occurrence. Depending on the part of the brain stimulated, it means that there may be thinking functions and traits that are being promoted. My speculation is that the effects of prayer on a martial relationship according to various studies, stated below, likely arose due to prayer's effects on the brain.
"Couple prayer has been found to decrease negativity, contempt, and hostility, as well as emotional reactivity toward one?s partner".
Another study "found that religious practices such as prayer helped Catholic couples to manage their anger during marital conflict".
And yet another "found that prayer facilitates couple empathy, increased selfchange focus, and encouraged couple responsibility for reconciliation and problem solving".
Source for this information http//www.public.iastate.edu/~ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Religiosity%20and%20marriage.pdf

The importance of prayer according to the Qur'an is clear from how much it is mentioned. Verse 317 mentions those who may be forgiven and granted entry into Paradise, if God wills, and they include those who often pray for God's forgiveness, among other things. We also pray to worship God, to praise Him, to give thanks, to remember Him, to ask for guidance, to ask for protection from the torment of Hellfire, to be granted entry into Paradise, among other things.

Outside of Iran, Pakistan and KSA? "Many nations". I don't know any. Do you have examples?
Most countries have recently granted women equal rights, so the approach of "especially by women" should not really exist in 2012. Can you qualify this?
Not all countries recognize the right of women in certain cases. For example, in Indonesia, the law states that adultery by married persons is punishable by death. Lethal stonings of individuals claimed to be adulterers occur also in present-day Somalia, Iraq, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, UAE, and Yemen. In many of these cases, most of the "adulterers" were women. Usually, insufficient evidence is held against them. And in some cases, the women have even been rape victims. In these countries, women rights are not realized to the same degree that you seem to suggest they exist. The fact that the year is 2012 is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, women are still oppressed in parts of the world. Those who carry out these stonings often claim to follow Sharia Law. But if the verses regarding adultery in the Qur'an were adopted into laws in these countries or by religious groups in these countries, it would provide an alternative punishment that requires four witnesses and provides a punishment for accusers who do not produce witnesses, thereby diminishing the number of prosecuted individuals. If you want further information on these cases, you can Google each country's name and "stoning".

Do you have a reason why you believe this if there is no physical evidence for this?
The Koran mentions sperm (not semen), an ovum, the process of fertilisation and the womb? Where?
I hope 2312-14 are not your source.
Thank you for the correction. The correct word was sperm.

Why is that your hope? In addition to those verses, there is also 7537-39, 396, and 5345-46. Other verses regarding the nature and formation of existing objects or entities. They can be read here.

No, Sir, in my experience there is no indication whatsoever that anything described in the Koran precedes modern science.
I think you mean "miss".
The idea that sperm contains a small baby that simply just grows in the womb was the common belief even into the 1700s. Whereas, as the verses in the link I provided above, there is this verse

"Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" 2313-14

This verse reveals that the formation of a human being in the womb does not consist simply of a miniature baby simply growing in size but rather includes a change in form. So this does precede the understanding of the formation of fetuses in the womb in science.

There is also the verse stating the expansion of the universe (5147) which wasn't discovered by scientists until the 1900s.

This link provides more information http//www.cometoislam.com/IslamandScience.htm

You believe this in spite of black holes or even asteroids destroying planets, a meteor wiping out dinosaurs here on Earth, the Andromeda galaxy on a collision course with us and our sun eating up Earth in a few billion years?
I believe this due to everything that truly exists. Even what is chaotic in the universe has an order and purpose to it.

Do you knowingly ignore diseases, poisons, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hail, radiation, droughts, tornadoes, epidemics, lightning, floods, avalanches, fires, asteroids, etc. or you believe this in spite of all evidence to the contrary?
I don't ignore any of that. Humans are vulnerable and susceptible to disease or may possible experience a disaster or accident. Everything is fated to happen. However, that does not mean that God does not care nor that He does not exist. This life is a test and we may experience hardships. If we strive hard in this life and if God so wills to forgive us on Judgment Day, then we may enter Paradise and experience no affliction, harm, or illness. However, there are various ways that we experience God's Mercy in this life, even if we do experience hardships.

When do you believe the Koran literally and when does it get too much and you need to resort to the miracle claim?
Like the splitting of the moon? Literal? Miracle? Future event?
541 The Hour has come near, and the moon has split .
I believe in it completely. If God's Word states that the moon has split or wil split, then I believe Him. It's never gotten to be "too much". Why would it? And I don't "resort" to "the miracle claim". Miracles and anything that exists or occurs in nature is by God's will, so I don't see why saying it is a miracle or not changes the perception of it.

Don't you think this is a logical contradiction?
Just = adequate punishment
Merciful = less than adequate punishment
No, I don't. I do not see justice and mercy as being incompatible. Mercy is the "compassionate treatment of or attitude towards an offender, adversary, etc., who is in one's power or care; clemency; pity". I did not find any definition of mercy or translation of Raheem (The Merciful) that stated it as meaning "less than adequate punishment". Those who have been or will be punished, if God wills, suffer it due to their own deeds such as those who disbelieve (26-27). So I do not find any contradiction in justice and mercy.

So there is no omniscience?
Having free will does not mean that God is not All-Knowing (astagfurallah). Indeed, God is All-Knowing, infinite in Wisdom, so I believe there is Wisdom in His willing to create humans as beings with free will.

Why do you think were the revelations not sent to some tribes, who have no word for god or any reference to a god in their culture?
According to the Qur'an, there was a warner or prophet sent to every people in the past (1047, 137, 3524). Some people chose not to believe or over time, the following generations may have chosen to move away from monotheism. Over time, this may have led to the eventual disuse of any word referring to One God or may have even be repurposed. These people will either be exposed to the idea or concept of One God, a Holy Being and Creator, one way or another regardless, even if it may arise out of their own contemplations, as it seemed to have been the case of Prophet Abraham (675-679).

If there are humans who will not listen, why test them? Is god omniscient? If humans are created, why do they require testing? Is god not omniscient? If god creates and wills anyway, why the test? And most important, why, if god creates and wills, are almost all humans punished for eternity?
God is indeed All-Knowing. He knows all that we have done, are doing, and will do. Those who will be punished if God wills, like I mentioned previously, have brought misfortune upon themselves. God never wrongs a people, people only wrong themselves so those who are going to Hell, if God wills, have done major wrongs and will suffer for it. The test is due to God's Mercy when Adam and Eve erred. They would have been sentenced to living on earth in misery if it were not for But would you rather God immediately punish people before they erred for eternity, if He willed? Or that everyone knowing that they have a time to do what they will before they will be judged? In my opinion, to be given a time and a Day of Judgment when we will all see what we have done is just and for our benefit.

[StopS]

I don't mind questions at all. haha Thank you for saying so, I enjoy serenity so I like it when others seem to think of me as being serene.

Do you think a loving couple should not have sex unless they are married? What I am referring to is the experimentation phase that young people go through when finding out in life as well as partners what is important for them.
I believe that the body should be treated with respect and to give one's body to another in that way is a show of great intimacy. Just love is not a sufficient prerequisite for sex, in my view. In my opinion, such a moment should remain only between a married couple. That is because marriage is the highest commitment one can make to another. Also, considering that pregnancy may result from sex, it just adds to the importance of the parents having established what they hope may be a lifelong commitment.

Yes, this is sad - but then, what can you do if students walk out of a biology lecture when it comes to evolution and dogmatic belief trumps scientific facts? You seem quite versatile. Are you in a Muslim majority country?
Versatile? How so? No, I live in a Western country with there is quite a bit of diversity in faiths and ethnicities.
The evolution of humans is a theory, not fact. Whether or not humans are descended from now extinct hominids, I cannot say. I do not see evolution and Islam as being incompatible. I do not see science as contracting beliefs that come from Islam. If people walk out of a lecture because they don't agree with what is being taught, I don't really mind. It is their business whether or not they want to listen to something but to attack someone because they have an opposing view or to insult them for it is both disrespectful and offensive. I've been in biology lectures with a large number of Muslims and when the topic of evolution came up, and in which I am sure there were other theists, and I didn't see a single person get up and leave. Evolution is taught is many Muslim countries and science foundations in about a dozen Muslim countries have agreed with the theory of evolution. But regardless of whether or not Muslims or other theists agree or disagree with evolution, I do not see that as justifying insulting people's beliefs or views.

Do you really believe angels and other beings exist? I mean outside of our imagination in the real world? Made from light of what frequency or wavelength?
Our range of what we can see of the light spectrum is very limited, so humans have built all sorts of sensors to extend our capabilities - yet to my knowledge no angel has ever been realistically picked up. So what makes you believe angels exist anyway?
We are not able to sense God with our five senses or with sensors, yet so many still believe in Him. I believe in God. My belief in a Being that I cannot sense comes along with an acceptance that there exists things and beings that we are unable to sense or create tools for sensing them. I believe that is because God willed it to be so, as He has power over all things. So I believe in angels because I believe in God.

I never found difficulty in believing in them so I never struggled with the question of how I could believe in them. Because I will give a short explanation of the story of how I came to believe that they existed firmly. When I wanted to explore my beliefs, reasons behind them, whether or not I was religious or Muslim, I decided to dissociate myself from any label (ie. "Muslim", etc). After questioning, research, and deep reflection I came to identify my belief that there is One God, Islam as a true religion and the Qur'an as the Word of God. As such, I accept His Word entirely and He has mentioned angels in the Qur'an. Therefore, due to my belief in God, due to my acceptance of the Qu'ran as His Word, I accept that there exists angels, among other things.

While I would not cite the Daily Mail as a source, especially not when it refers to brain damaged patients here, I understand the point. What do you think is the benefit of prayer over other ways of mental relaxation?
In its 5000 year history, prayer has never shown any effect - other than brain stimulation. I don't experience stress, so I'm curious what other say about it and how they combat it.
I don't usually use it as a source either but I wasn't really focusing on the source rather than the relevance of the article. But I understand what you mean.

Brain stimulation is not an insignificant occurrence. Depending on the part of the brain stimulated, it means that there may be thinking functions and traits that are being promoted. My speculation is that the effects of prayer on a martial relationship according to various studies, stated below, likely arose due to prayer's effects on the brain.
"Couple prayer has been found to decrease negativity, contempt, and hostility, as well as emotional reactivity toward one?s partner".
Another study "found that religious practices such as prayer helped Catholic couples to manage their anger during marital conflict".
And yet another "found that prayer facilitates couple empathy, increased selfchange focus, and encouraged couple responsibility for reconciliation and problem solving".
Source for this information http//www.public.iastate.edu/~ccutrona/psych592a/articles/Religiosity%20and%20marriage.pdf

The importance of prayer according to the Qur'an is clear from how much it is mentioned. Verse 317 mentions those who may be forgiven and granted entry into Paradise, if God wills, and they include those who often pray for God's forgiveness, among other things. We also pray to worship God, to praise Him, to give thanks, to remember Him, to ask for guidance, to ask for protection from the torment of Hellfire, to be granted entry into Paradise, among other things.

Outside of Iran, Pakistan and KSA? "Many nations". I don't know any. Do you have examples?
Most countries have recently granted women equal rights, so the approach of "especially by women" should not really exist in 2012. Can you qualify this?
Not all countries recognize the right of women in certain cases. For example, in Indonesia, the law states that adultery by married persons is punishable by death. Lethal stonings of individuals claimed to be adulterers occur also in present-day Somalia, Iraq, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, UAE, and Yemen. In many of these cases, most of the "adulterers" were women. Usually, insufficient evidence is held against them. And in some cases, the women have even been rape victims. In these countries, women rights are not realized to the same degree that you seem to suggest they exist. The fact that the year is 2012 is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, women are still oppressed in parts of the world. Those who carry out these stonings often claim to follow Sharia Law. But if the verses regarding adultery in the Qur'an were adopted into laws in these countries or by religious groups in these countries, it would provide an alternative punishment that requires four witnesses and provides a punishment for accusers who do not produce witnesses, thereby diminishing the number of prosecuted individuals. If you want further information on these cases, you can Google each country's name and "stoning".

Do you have a reason why you believe this if there is no physical evidence for this?
The Koran mentions sperm (not semen), an ovum, the process of fertilisation and the womb? Where?
I hope 2312-14 are not your source.
Thank you for the correction. The correct word was sperm.

Why is that your hope? In addition to those verses, there is also 7537-39, 396, and 5345-46. Other verses regarding the nature and formation of existing objects or entities. They can be read here.

No, Sir, in my experience there is no indication whatsoever that anything described in the Koran precedes modern science.
I think you mean "miss".
The idea that sperm contains a small baby that simply just grows in the womb was the common belief even into the 1700s. Whereas, as the verses in the link I provided above, there is this verse

"Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!" 2313-14

This verse reveals that the formation of a human being in the womb does not consist simply of a miniature baby simply growing in size but rather includes a change in form. So this does precede the understanding of the formation of fetuses in the womb in science.

There is also the verse stating the expansion of the universe (5147) which wasn't discovered by scientists until the 1900s.

This link provides more information http//www.cometoislam.com/IslamandScience.htm

You believe this in spite of black holes or even asteroids destroying planets, a meteor wiping out dinosaurs here on Earth, the Andromeda galaxy on a collision course with us and our sun eating up Earth in a few billion years?
I believe this due to everything that truly exists. Even what is chaotic in the universe has an order and purpose to it.

Do you knowingly ignore diseases, poisons, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanoes, hail, radiation, droughts, tornadoes, epidemics, lightning, floods, avalanches, fires, asteroids, etc. or you believe this in spite of all evidence to the contrary?
I don't ignore any of that. Humans are vulnerable and susceptible to disease or may possible experience a disaster or accident. Everything is fated to happen. However, that does not mean that God does not care nor that He does not exist. This life is a test and we may experience hardships. If we strive hard in this life and if God so wills to forgive us on Judgment Day, then we may enter Paradise and experience no affliction, harm, or illness. However, there are various ways that we experience God's Mercy in this life, even if we do experience hardships.

When do you believe the Koran literally and when does it get too much and you need to resort to the miracle claim?
Like the splitting of the moon? Literal? Miracle? Future event?
541 The Hour has come near, and the moon has split .
I believe in it completely. If God's Word states that the moon has split or wil split, then I believe Him. It's never gotten to be "too much". Why would it? And I don't "resort" to "the miracle claim". Miracles and anything that exists or occurs in nature is by God's will, so I don't see why saying it is a miracle or not changes the perception of it.

Don't you think this is a logical contradiction?
Just = adequate punishment
Merciful = less than adequate punishment
No, I don't. I do not see justice and mercy as being incompatible. Mercy is the "compassionate treatment of or attitude towards an offender, adversary, etc., who is in one's power or care; clemency; pity". I did not find any definition of mercy or translation of Raheem (The Merciful) that stated it as meaning "less than adequate punishment". Those who have been or will be punished, if God wills, suffer it due to their own deeds such as those who disbelieve (26-27). So I do not find any contradiction in justice and mercy.

So there is no omniscience?
Having free will does not mean that God is not All-Knowing (astagfurallah). Indeed, God is All-Knowing, infinite in Wisdom, so I believe there is Wisdom in His willing to create humans as beings with free will.

Why do you think were the revelations not sent to some tribes, who have no word for god or any reference to a god in their culture?
According to the Qur'an, there was a warner or prophet sent to every people in the past (1047, 137, 3524). Some people chose not to believe or over time, the following generations may have chosen to move away from monotheism. Over time, this may have led to the eventual disuse of any word referring to One God or may have even be repurposed. These people will either be exposed to the idea or concept of One God, a Holy Being and Creator, one way or another regardless, even if it may arise out of their own contemplations, as it seemed to have been the case of Prophet Abraham (675-679).

If there are humans who will not listen, why test them? Is god omniscient? If humans are created, why do they require testing? Is god not omniscient? If god creates and wills anyway, why the test? And most important, why, if god creates and wills, are almost all humans punished for eternity?
God is indeed All-Knowing. He knows all that we have done, are doing, and will do. Those who will be punished if God wills, like I mentioned previously, have brought misfortune upon themselves. God never wrongs a people, people only wrong themselves so those who are going to Hell, if God wills, have done major wrongs and will suffer for it. The test is due to God's Mercy when Adam and Eve erred. They would have been sentenced to living on earth in misery if it were not for But would you rather God immediately punish people before they erred for eternity, if He willed? Or that everyone knowing that they have a time to do what they will before they will be judged? In my opinion, to be given a time and a Day of Judgment when we will all see what we have done is just and for our benefit.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Not everything you say makes sense to me and some things simply clash with reality. But I don't want to argue, so I'll say thank you for being so open and providing those explanations.
Oh and the Sir was actually neutral, like I will call a group of people "guys", even if there are females amongst them. But thanks anyway for pointing that out.

[Pakistani_Assassin]

Salam assissino

When I read this topic, it shocked me how close your views are to my own. I can say that im in exactly your position at the moment.
If im bieng honest, if listed all my views and methodology, no doubt people would consider me athiest; which for me is the default position i.e not believing or taking true unless you have valid justification/evidence to do so. This justification/evidence is different for different people, some set the bar low and some like myself are very meticulous. So don't feel to disheartened at labels; like other posters have said labels dont really tell the whole story. One thing im grateful i learnt from quran only islam and this forum is to challenge ideas and question.

I have the same view with regards sex outside of marriage. I would however like to bring up the issue of STD's, it is obvious to state that their is a greater risk to catch std's when one sleeps around, but however the cause of the problem is not random sex, however it lies in bieng unaware that the person carries a std. Awareness and cause of the problems are the issues and those linking them to sleeping around is abit naive.

Marriage has come up alot for me as ive got to a stage where i'd like to start a family. the worrying thing is that i myself feel incompatible with many religious people. Open-mindness and tolerence i have noticed is more prevelant amongst free thinkers, those who reflect and study tend to be alot more suitable for me atleast. This rarely occurs among devoutly religious people and that is the problem for me. Say you marry a devout sunni/christian/hindu/anti-thiest etc and you have kids, you may indeed be open minded however if you significant other is really devout they will definitely enforce there views on kids. The issue boils down how invested the person is in there beliefs and whether those beliefs allow for them think outside of box.

to reply to your views on miracles. This is what has been the pivotal for me recently. When i first started quran only islam miracles i accepted as a package included with the power of God but chose not to devout time to studying it. I only took up interest in miracles recently when sunni's were flashing around hadiths as proofs of miracles and scientific miracles in the quran. This got me curious.

First we need to define what we mean by miracle ;-

1. a highly improbable but still possible event/occurance e.g falling from a tall building and surviving.
2. an impossible event/occurance which goes against the "laws" that we know govern our reality e.g an actual headless man walking and talking with his head in his arms.

In the case of 1 there are several claims that can fall in to this category, however you need to be aware that this implies that it is able to be explained and examined using science, if not they fall to second category.

Majority of the miracle claims of a religious nature fall in to the second. This is where the problems starts for me. Depending on how one defines God (its pointless otherwise), I'd say for purposes of this, God is limitless/boundless and cannot be comprehended meaning literally God can do absolutely anything. So it is in Gods ability to do the virgin birth.
now here's the thing the quran states that in few places that God does not go against our reality i.e his decree is unchanging (feel free to correct me if im wrong, cant remember the relevant verses might be mistaken), he can but he doesn't becuase of the business of free will etc. However he also states that he shows signs to us for those who believe and these signs include the virgin birth. Jesus was concieved from literally nothing and is like occurance of Adam from nothing ( im aware this is not the only interpretation). We know this from our understanding of reality that this feat is not only impossible but cannot be tested or reproduced. If reality tells us such a thing is impossible and untestable then how is one able to attest to an event such as the virgin birth even happening. Im told its a sign of God and fair enough but thats the same as me telling someone I the hear voices in my head which gives the correct lottery numbers but i choose not to play them. this is also a circular reasoning because God then requires us to believe to believe. When i need a good evidence to believe as a basis.

My view on the punishments in the quran seem to be very excessive and in particular the punishment for disbelievers in hell. The problem for me ties in with the concept of free will and it the following applies to the concept of hell in general for "sinful" acts

1. Did God create hell? according to the Quran i'd say yes.
2. Did God create the criteria by which the universe works and how souls are judged? according to the quran i'd say yes. He set the rules of reality and he set the rules of who goes to heaven and hell.
   3 Does anything happen that goes against God will or does anything occur independantly of God (something that God is NOT aware of)?
   according to the quran id say no. God is omniscient etc.
   4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling. This also leads the question of how does one realise he is rightly guided? Like you said alot of question do go unanswered when going from sunni to quran only islam.

Id like to say something about faith. After years of contemplation ive realised in my own view that faith really isn't a pathway to truth. It for me gives me something to believe i have no good reasons to believe. For me in my sunni days it made me quite biased toward favorable sources and jump to conclusion. When i came to quran only i only kept faith in God but made a biased assumption that the quran was the word of God without any justification to do so. So here i am in a poition to evaluate the quran is what it say it is. and honestly its not looking very good.

Ive realised if God exists then he will exist regardless if the quran is true or not. For me my main desire is to know what is true and not what i want to be true, and that is a decision you yourself have to make.

My advise would be go first through the different arguments for GOD. Ontological and so on and also go through the oppositions to them also. then decide do you believe God exist or not. If you feel you like the idea of God then go and read up on various religions that interest you but remember be aware of the jump one can make from saying there is a god to quran is the word of God with no justification, its easy trap to fall in to.

Id also like to add that the quran itself is the claim and CANNOT be used as the proof of itself. by that i mean saying the quran is the word of god because it says it is the word of god is not proof. also contrary to what some may believe you cannot use the quran itself as a proof of GOD because you first have to prove God exists before attribute something to Him. Thats where you have to decide whether you believe god exists or not and analyse the quran to see whether it is the word of God, which i myself have doubts about

Good luck on your journey to truth.

Peace peace

Salam seekingtruth, I enjoyed reading your response peace. Also sorry for the late reply...and to everyone else who i wont be able to reply to...have been busy.

It seems we're both on agreement on most things. I can't accept the Quran is the word of God just because God says so, nor is there any evidence of there being anything remotely divine about the Quran. In my opinion, the supernatural and the divine do not exist, since there has never been any proof of either, only conjecture over the 4000 year history or so of the Abrahamic faiths.

And I agree, that first we need evidence of the existence of God. And even if there is, I have to ask, does it matter? God could exist, but that doesn't change anything in our lives does it? Our prayers still go unanswered and people still struggle to survive.

And good luck on your quest to start a family. Me personally, I'm not ready for such a thing...until a long long time. My family obviously want me to get married to a nice sunni muslimah, though thats definitely not going to happen. I think there'll be a few heart attacks the day I come home with a non-believing westerner and then I'll have to fear the wrath of my mum and my grand parents. Should make for an interesting thread one day. rotfl

So, do you still identify as a muslim? In your opinion are we still 'muslims'? (of course I don't care much for labels but i'm curious what others think)

Take care and post more peace

[Pakistani_Assassin]

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me. P

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
   And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
   I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe. But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures. As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

3. I don't believe in angels.
   This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
   Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
   On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it) http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html

5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
   If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators
   "The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 242

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 244

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
   I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test. In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.

7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
   Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this

"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 660

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens

"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 2265

"Allah certainly holds together the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 3541

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 189-1813. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
   This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
   He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.

10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
    In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.

11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
    I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
    God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.

13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
    In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
    A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

I never said it's impossible for people to have a loving relationship when married, lol. And yes, if two people want to have sex, imo marriage is not needed.

As for me, I don't think I've come across any non-believer who mocked my previous beliefs probably because they simply never cared. Maybe it's because I've grown up mainly among muslims for my whole life, I dunno but the non-believers I know are great people. And I forgot to mention - along with religious people; a militant Atheist or someone like that would be at the bottom of my list as well.

I don't believe in angels because there is no evidence of their existence. The words of the Quran are not evidence, rather faith based evidence - something I can't really ascribe to anymore. Of course this depends on how you interpret malaika.

The requirement of 4 witnesses is bronze age mentality - likewise the flogging punishment; this sort of stuff used to happen in England 300 years ago. People should be free to fornicate a they please (should not be mistaken for me being a fan of fornication).

Again, God requires obedience to him, by ordering us not to consume pork. This is absurd. First of all, God - if he exists - does not need us to be obedient to him. Secondly, your just advocating blind belief - i.e. 'do not consume pork because god said so and because god said we have to be obedient to him.'

For these miracles to happen, the laws of physics had to be broken, yet there is no proof anywhere of such grand miracles ever occurring - just the idle talk of religion and divine scripture, whether that be Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Neither have hard proof to bring to the table and some people like me don't have faith to fall back on.

Now if Judgement day does exist, I'd suppose it'd be a good thing. But again, I don't have faith. Ideal things such as absolute peace do not exist in this world so of course humans fall back on to an afterlife in which absolute justice occurs. Of course with no evidence. If an afterlife does exist, I'm don't think it would be the one described in any holy book.

God would have done us a big favour if he explained to us why he decided to do anything but he didn't. He expects us to rely on faith and serve him, but I cannot.

Thanks for your reply peace

[good_logic]

Peace Assassino.

Quote I don't believe in angels because there is no evidence of their existence. The words of the Quran are not evidence, rather faith based evidence - something I can't really ascribe to anymore. Of course this depends on how you interpret malaika.

I take it you do not believe Qoran is from God? Who authored this book then? Who is this " God" that Qoran describes in

They can never fathom the greatness of God. The whole earth is within His fist on the Day of Resurrection. In fact, the universes are folded within His right hand. Be He glorified; He is much too high above needing any partners.

And

Thus, He completed the seven universes in two days, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.

And

With Him are the keys to all secrets; none knows them except He. He knows everything on land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls without His knowledge. Nor is there a grain in the depths of the soil. Nor is there anything wet or dry, that is not recorded in a profound record.

He says about us

You do not get into any situation, nor do you study/read any Quran, nor do you do anything, without us being witnesses thereof as you do it. Not even an atom's weight is out of your Lord's control, be it in the heavens or the earth. Nor is there anything smaller than an atom, or larger, that is not recorded in a profound record.

Quote (2) Now if Judgement day does exist, I'd suppose it'd be a good thing. But again, I don't have faith. Ideal things such as absolute peace do not exist in this world so of course humans fall back on to an afterlife in which absolute justice occurs. Of course with no evidence. If an afterlife does exist, I'm don't think it would be the one described in any holy book.

This is what says about "Resurrection"ie "the hour".

Those who disbelieve have said, "The Hour will never come to pass!" Say, "Absolutely - by my Lord - it will most certainly come to you. He is the Knower of the future. Not even the equivalent of an atom's weight is hidden from Him, be it in the heavens or the earth. Not even smaller than that, or larger (is hidden). All are in a profound record."

If this was from " other than God", then who Authored it?

Peace.

[StopS]

I take it you do not believe Qoran is from God? Who authored this book then? Who is this " God" that Qoran describes in

They can never fathom the greatness of God. The whole earth is within His fist on the Day of Resurrection. In fact, the universes are folded within His right hand. Be He glorified; He is much too high above needing any partners.

If this was from " other than God", then who Authored it?

Peace.

Interesting question. Do you believe the Koran was written by a god because the Koran says so?

[good_logic]

Peace StopS.

Yes.

Peace.

[StopS]

Peace StopS.

Yes.

Peace.

Fair enough. To answer your question I am not convinced. I am agnostic here and say I don't know. And I don't know if we will ever clear this up one way or the other.

[Ruuube]

After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

[hawk99]

After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

Agreed

It is a question of trust as you point out.

Muslims have to learn to understand that our deen has nothing to with the kuffars
and that there is a veil between them and us.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say, "O you disbelievers.

"I do not worship what you worship.

"Nor do you worship what I worship.

"Nor will I ever worship what you worship.

"Nor will you ever worship what I worship.

"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."

Peace

O0

[StopS]

After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

I have no clue who the "you" is, but if you would ask me, I would answer, yes, I need to know that I believe what I believe for a reason. That's why you have empirical, versus stated beliefs. You have Occurrent, Dispositional, Explicit, etc Beliefs.
http//plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

I once thought I saw a UFO. Later inspection showed me it was wishful thinking combined with a trick by my brain. So I stopped believing I saw a UFO.

Exactly! This is what I explained when defining atheism bring evidence or stop believing and atheism automatically vanishes by definition.

And that is precisely why there is something called faith. Which I lack. So if a person claims he has a Toyota in his garage I accept it. If the claim is there's an invisible dragon in my garage or a 747 I sort of would expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.

Or, to go back to my own story I REALLY believed there was a UFO, but since nobody else could corroborate my vision and I could provide only my testimony, the story died. Through rational reasoning.

What "extraordinary insight" are you talking about? I am not aware of anything extraordinary said of Muhammad. Except maybe the splitting of the moon, but that is more allegoric than factual.
What exactly would you call "like the Qur'an"? And if someone did, who would be the judge and by what standard? Sorry, the inimitability claim fails badly in reality.

So, yes, I see no benefit to "believe without concrete evidence". But as you see I don't look down on believers or insult them. I don't say I am absolutely right and I admit mistakes. I hope I answered what you were curious about.

[one-9-one]

I have no clue who the "you" is, but if you would ask me, I would answer, yes, I need to know that I believe what I believe for a reason. That's why you have empirical, versus stated beliefs. You have Occurrent, Dispositional, Explicit, etc Beliefs.
http//plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

I once thought I saw a UFO. Later inspection showed me it was wishful thinking combined with a trick by my brain. So I stopped believing I saw a UFO.

Exactly! This is what I explained when defining atheism bring evidence or stop believing and atheism automatically vanishes by definition.

And that is precisely why there is something called faith. Which I lack. So if a person claims he has a Toyota in his garage I accept it. If the claim is there's an invisible dragon in my garage or a 747 I sort of would expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.

Or, to go back to my own story I REALLY believed there was a UFO, but since nobody else could corroborate my vision and I could provide only my testimony, the story died. Through rational reasoning.

What "extraordinary insight" are you talking about? I am not aware of anything extraordinary said of Muhammad. Except maybe the splitting of the moon, but that is more allegoric than factual.
What exactly would you call "like the Qur'an"? And if someone did, who would be the judge and by what standard? Sorry, the inimitability claim fails badly in reality.

So, yes, I see no benefit to "believe without concrete evidence". But as you see I don't look down on believers or insult them. I don't say I am absolutely right and I admit mistakes. I hope I answered what you were curious about.

Hi StopS

I tend to agree with you generally on this. Though I consider myself at this point neither yet a believer nor yet an unbeliever. Do you have any opinion on this.

[StopS]

Hi StopS

I tend to agree with you generally on this. Though I consider myself at this point neither yet a believer nor yet an unbeliever. Do you have any opinion on this.

Hahaha, this is not to taken lightly and not intended as a joke.... but if you don't believe, you are, by definition, a non-believer. I don't see the possibility of believing something exists just a little bit.

What some people do is say I think there was a creator who push-started everything and set this Universe into motion and then "retired" and is no longer involved in the day-to-day operations. That would be a deist.

On the other side you have people who don't see any evidence for the existence of a god and don't require or need one either, which are anti-theists. So you get this whole scale with a range of possibilities

anti-theist----------------atheist--------------------agnostic-----------------------deist-----------------------theist-----------------------gnostic theist

^
|
Are you here?

[one-9-one]

Hahaha, this is not to taken lightly and not intended as a joke.... but if you don't believe, you are, by definition, a non-believer. I don't see the possibility of believing something exists just a little bit.

What some people do is say I think there was a creator who push-started everything and set this Universe into motion and then "retired" and is no longer involved in the day-to-day operations. That would be a deist.

On the other side you have people who don't see any evidence for the existence of a god and don't require or need one either, which are anti-theists. So you get this whole scale with a range of possibilities

anti-theist----------------atheist--------------------agnostic-----------------------deist-----------------------theist-----------------------gnostic theist

^
|
Are you here?

Very well said StopS! So I have put my balancing act together.
---I should stand between heaven and hell in the center of nothing I suppose---.

[Ruuube]

I have no clue who the "you" is, but if you would ask me, I would answer, yes, I need to know that I believe what I believe for a reason. That's why you have empirical, versus stated beliefs. You have Occurrent, Dispositional, Explicit, etc Beliefs.
http//plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/

My beliefs are empirical indeed -- some of the things in the Qur'an are extraordinary claims, others less so. I have to ask though, what reason would be sufficient for you to believe? I refer back to my allegory earlier; it is of no difference to the man whether he convinces you or not, he decided of his own will to tell you the tale. I think what more we are looking at here, rather than types of belief, are types of analytical behaviour.

I infer that you believe things based on the truths present and work backwards from there, I believed in the Qur'an by working from the basis that this is a series of 'truths' being presented to me, and then compared them with my own experience and knowledge. As in modern science, even things that have been observed to be true remain a theory. Without the willingness to accept something alternative is the truth, it becomes impossible to progress.

I once thought I saw a UFO. Later inspection showed me it was wishful thinking combined with a trick by my brain. So I stopped believing I saw a UFO.

I don't feel this is a fair analogy, seeing something in the sky could be anything from a unique angle of an object in the sky, to indeed, a UFO. The Qur'an is either the work of man, or the work of God as it claims.

And that is precisely why there is something called faith. Which I lack. So if a person claims he has a Toyota in his garage I accept it. If the claim is there's an invisible dragon in my garage or a 747 I sort of would expect extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim.

Again, I don't feel this is a fair analogy. It feels a lot like the 'flying spaghetti monster' argument. If you switch God with something ridiculous and remove the basis of the belief in God -- i.e his works, then it is only logical that you wouldn't believe the claim.

What "extraordinary insight" are you talking about? I am not aware of anything extraordinary said of Muhammad. Except maybe the splitting of the moon, but that is more allegoric than factual.

Not 'of Muhammad', 'by Muhammad'. If you take away God being the author of the Qur'an, then the book must be written by Muhammad -- or Muhammad and his allies. In this case, one would consider the Qur'an to be something extraordinary Muhammad wrote, in the same way The Illiad is something extraordinary Homer wrote.

What exactly would you call "like the Qur'an"? And if someone did, who would be the judge and by what standard? Sorry, the inimitability claim fails badly in reality.

A book claiming to have knowledge 'of the Unseen' if you like. As for judges, considering humanity is subjective the only fair judge would be all of those who read it. However, this is irrelevant, as is the question posed at the end of my first post. The Qur'an itself claims it is of no difference whether you believe it or disbelieve in it, for the author is free of need.

[StopS]

My beliefs are empirical indeed -- some of the things in the Qur'an are extraordinary claims, others less so.

Does that mean I can delete the word faith from my vocabulary? If your belief would have empirical evidence it would not be called belief but knowledge.

I have to ask though, what reason would be sufficient for you to believe? I refer back to my allegory earlier; it is of no difference to the man whether he convinces you or not, he decided of his own will to tell you the tale. I think what more we are looking at here, rather than types of belief, are types of analytical behaviour.

Proof. Extraordinary proof. That is what it would take to make me accept that a being "created" everything. If a fair and just person tells me something and does not care whether or not I believe it on blind faith I should not have to bear any consequences. If "analytical behaviour" is faith versus evidence I agree.

I infer that you believe things based on the truths present and work backwards from there,

Opposite. I look at evidence and see where it takes me. Only if confronted with a ready-made statement do I ask for evidence.

I believed in the Qur'an by working from the basis that this is a series of 'truths' being presented to me, and then compared them with my own experience and knowledge.

What is a "series of truths"??? Are there more than 1 truth?

If you work on the premiss that the Koran is true you don't care for the truth. This is not a judgement of the Koran, but anything.

As in modern science, even things that have been observed to be true remain a theory. Without the willingness to accept something alternative is the truth, it becomes impossible to progress.

How can the Koran or its contents progress?

I don't feel this is a fair analogy, seeing something in the sky could be anything from a unique angle of an object in the sky, to indeed, a UFO. The Qur'an is either the work of man, or the work of God as it claims.

1. Did I say anything about sky? No, it was right in front of me, only half a mile away.
2. I disagree. Strongly. There are other alternatives. It could be written by aliens or represent a collection of stories developed out of society, not the "work of man".

Again, I don't feel this is a fair analogy. It feels a lot like the 'flying spaghetti monster' argument. If you switch God with something ridiculous and remove the basis of the belief in God -- i.e his works, then it is only logical that you wouldn't believe the claim.

Why and how is this unfair? Is the claim that "something" intelligently designed and created everything normal, rational or reasonable? No, of course not. It is extraordinary. It is not a matter of not believing the claim but not believing the claim without strong evidence.

Not 'of Muhammad', 'by Muhammad'. If you take away God being the author of the Qur'an, then the book must be written by Muhammad -- or Muhammad and his allies. In this case, one would consider the Qur'an to be something extraordinary Muhammad wrote, in the same way The Illiad is something extraordinary Homer wrote.

Why? Why on Earth is there a dichotomy Muhammad or not Muhammad? How about poets? Story tellers? Cultures? History? We have multiple stories from different eras and different regions. Do you seriously believe that everything was collected and compiled within just a few years or 2 or 3 decades?

A book claiming to have knowledge 'of the Unseen' if you like. As for judges, considering humanity is subjective the only fair judge would be all of those who read it. However, this is irrelevant, as is the question posed at the end of my first post. The Qur'an itself claims it is of no difference whether you believe it or disbelieve in it, for the author is free of need.

Then every James Bond, Sherlock Holmes or Harry Potter would qualify. How would those who read any book be able to judge whether it is "like" the Koran? And what if they say yes?
If you really believe that "it is of no difference whether you believe it or disbelieve in it" I don't understand why anyone then should be tested and subsequently punished. After all there is only this one book.

[good_logic]

Peace StopS.

What kind of proof would you accept that a " Designer/creator" exists?

If I suggest the following

( GOD? Designer of the universe? Surely HE will leave some kind of proof? Sign? code?)

( Phi, ? constant- = 1.61803? is the creator s signature on all HIS designs i.e The golden ratio? Science has proved ? See Dr Steven Markout 25 year study- that the relative ratio 1.61803? relates to all created structure of our universe. Also the sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? ? The work of Fibonacci, also called the sequence of nature, has a connection with the golden ratio ? See science research on flowers, spirals, DNA, etc?-
The golden ratio and Fibonacci sequence permeates throughout the universe in both organic and inorganic worlds and at all scales and levels to such a degree that the probability of this being chance/ coincidence is virtually impossible. Hence a Designer, Creator exists.

You will probably say it is just " nature"?
Or this is not "Science"?

Or are you going to Wait until the "Creator" shows up. He will come down ,at the right time predetermined by Him! So wait, we too are waiting!

Peace.

[StopS]

Peace StopS.

What kind of proof would you accept that a " Designer/creator" exists?

If I suggest the following

( GOD? Designer of the universe? Surely HE will leave some kind of proof? Sign? code?)

( Phi, ? constant- = 1.61803? is the creator s signature on all HIS designs i.e The golden ratio? Science has proved ? See Dr Steven Markout 25 year study- that the relative ratio 1.61803? relates to all created structure of our universe. Also the sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5,8,? ? The work of Fibonacci, also called the sequence of nature, has a connection with the golden ratio ? See science research on flowers, spirals, DNA, etc?-
The golden ratio and Fibonacci sequence permeates throughout the universe in both organic and inorganic worlds and at all scales and levels to such a degree that the probability of this being chance/ coincidence is virtually impossible. Hence a Designer, Creator exists.

You will probably say it is just " nature"?
Or this is not "Science"?

Or are you going to Wait until the "Creator" shows up. He will come down ,at the right time predetermined by Him! So wait, we too are waiting!

Peace.

My rationale is different would there be no possibility of discovering Pi without a god? Is there one particular religion where the followers discovered Pi? Is there proof that only a god could have revealed Pi?
Now do the reverse what is special about this ratio? Is the fact that it is infinite the appeal and the claim to mysticism? Does that make it the target of wishful thinking.

And so on. So we see that this is not the kind of proof which is persuasive. I would love to see a 14 billion year-old book, perfect and without error, meaning not requiring any context, clearly worded and automatically changing language depending on the reader. I would love to see a justification for continuous testing and hell. There's probably a long list like this in my head somewhere.

[farida]

And so on. So we see that this is not the kind of proof which is persuasive. I would love to see a 14 billion year-old book, perfect and without error, meaning not requiring any context, clearly worded and automatically changing language depending on the reader. I would love to see a justification for continuous testing and hell. There's probably a long list like this in my head somewhere.

A hi-tech book for all times, it will hold no surprise or a quest for knowledge, just turn the era, turn the page until it reaches your time and there You are an all embracing believer. yay