Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa

[Sunnah-hero]

I have heard from some quranist that NISA cannot mean women from a quranic perspective. I am an Arab, and do recognize that without the sunnah everything in the Quran become questionable as a quranist is someone who uses his own logic in order to understand Quran. And I feel Shirley does that, she is someone who knows how to think out of the box and uses her reason and logic to approach some controversial aspects of Quran el Karim. I have a lot of respect for you Shirley, and I look forward to read more from you.

Wael

[Noon_waalqalami]

first of all, there is no quranic evidence that it was a man named Muhammad who came with the quran.

Peace Maha, use cross-reference and the evidence is logically deduced ...

297 say from/who he is an enemy to Gabriel so indeed he descended it on your heart by permission The God confirming to what between His hands and guidance and glad tidings to the believers

31
32 The God not deity only He The Living The Sustainer of all
33 descended to you the book in the truth confirming to what between His hands and descended the Taurat and The Injeel

472 and the ones who believe and do the righteous works and believe in what descended on Muhammad and it the truth from their Lord rids from them their evil deeds and corrects their condition

Peace Damon,

You seem to have studied this verse in depth, and have provided us with a lot of new insight. Could you please continue with this thread and answer Noon, Mazhar, and Wakas's questions even if you've already addressed them prior? Also, if you've addressed them prior to this, then can you please tell us where in the thread we can find these answers?

We'd like for you to continue, please.

Yes we're all waiting for a simple translation of nisaa while he avoids answering and now wants to run-away.

First point, the particle "" (ma) does not mean who. (man) means who and "" (ma) is NOT used in The Quran as a substitute for (man). Since Wakas is so big on evidence he should have asked UQ to present a line in the Quran where "" (ma) is used to obviously mean who; where it can only mean who and nothing else. (man) means who and
"" (ma) means what, whatever, that which and whatsoever and sometimes as the word not when used as a substitute for (Laa) . "" (ma) is "" (ma) and (man) is (man) and they each have their own distinct meanings. It should be known by those who are students of Arabic that the word "" (ma) can mean who or whoever when it is attached to the conjunctive prefix Ayya (Alif Yaa).

Then post less about your rift with Wakas and simply translate?

43 so marry ma/whom aba/agreeable to you from the women

422 and not you marry ma/whom married your fathers from the women except ma/what hence passed

[Shirley]

Salaam StopS, Released, Inquisitivetrini, Dawngorgeous, Answerseeker, Good Logic and Maha,

I would like to pick up where we all left off in this discussion. I guess it's only fair to answer the questions in the same order they were asked. We can start with StopS' enquiries.

Since I don't really have any position on this, may I ask a question? I am a bit puzzled as a search on "nisaa" in transliteration gives me 21 instances of the word in connection with a very female context, such as menstruation or dowry.
Why would you want to have a word look as though it relates to women and mean something different?

I'll answer the first question "Why would you want to have a word look as though it relates to women and mean something different?"

I have to try and answer this without coming off as racist or anti Arab. But the fact of the matter is that the Arabic Culture has alwasy been and is now a male centric, woman oppressing and male chauvinist culture. This is all to evident today right before our very eyes. A pretty good book to read which is quite an eye opener is The Arab Mind by Raphael Patai. This book pretty much confirmed for me what I had already realized just by dealings with and observations of Arabs. Again, I have to emphasize that I am in no way or fashion taking a jab at Arabs or their culture. I am merely pointing out the culture of oppression that exists among Arabs and how that culture made its way into the Arab Ideology of Islam. So to answer your question WHY they do this is because Arab men have always traditonally dominated Arab society and they have always had this thing where a woman "has her own place in society" and that place is always relegated away from the public eye, in the house, the kitchen and the bedroom. That's it!! That's their lot in life. It's not a lot, but it's their life.

The Quran came to mandate EQUAL RIGHTS and OPPORTUNITY for ALL HUMAN BEINGS....white, non white, Arab, Indian, African, male, female, young and old. The Quran was threatening to to totally turn on it's back the male centric Arab culture. It was threatening to give women rights and opportunities Arab men are uncomfortable with. The Ideology of The Quran (NOT the Religion of Islam) had the potential of reaching the hearts and minds of the masses who were yearning for the dismantling of the system of injustice and replace it with a system that is based on complete justice. The Quran gave an exposition of just that along with the step by step formula to make this all happen and in a realistically short span of time. The BEST thing that the enemies of truth could do was get rid of The Quran entirely or otherwise make it an irrelevant book. Not being able to do this in actual practice, they did the next best thing. They arbitrarily heaped their own meanings and interpretations on literally THOUSANDS of the words that are in The Quran. And to make sure that these meanings remain unchallenged and unquestioned they put in place SOMETHING ELSE that we can verify with our own eyes today. They issued their corrupt blasphemy and apostate laws to punish and kill those who question and reject their interpretations and who attempt to teach interpretations that are contrary to what the enemies of truth have shoved upon the poor masses against their will. This is the TRUE FUNCTION of the Sheikhs, scholars, mullahs, Imams and religious priests. To keep the dummy mill working and to counter anyone who comes along with a fresh new view of The Quran and its teachings. Another good book worth reading is Muslim Conspiracies Against The Quran by Dr. Akhtar Sherazi. This book gives the full and relevant history of the arbitrary changes made to the definitions of the Quranic words and their meanings, especially during the Abbasid Dynasty. He cites complete references and lists many, many books and papers relevant to the subject that one can read for further delving into this topic.

Example 2222 says ... concerning menstruation. Say It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you.
Can this refer to something other than women or have I missed your point?
Thanks

We can begin by asking some questions and exercising our common sense. Were the people to whom The Quran was revealed engaging in sexual activity that The Quran had to reveal a passage ruling against it? Does not every woman and man know that that is the time to leave women be and allow nature to take its course? Another question to ask is HOW the subject of menstruation fits in the context of the verses BEFORE and AFTER 2/222 (2/221 and 2/223 respectively)? When reading 2/221 and 2/223 we see that these verses are discussing CONFLICT/FIGHTING/Political Activities!! How and where does a woman's monthly mense fit into this overall context?

When people were made aware of the fact that the word for menstruation is not maheeDd but heeDd, they said the word maheeDd in 2/222 is time of menstruation. If it is time of menstruation, it would not be ALmaheeDd it would simply be maheeDd, because the time of menstruation is a general form. It does not occur at the same time for every woman everywhere. It occurs differently for all women everywhere. Different times it starts, differrent times it finishes and different degrees of discomfort. I know for a scientific fact that not ALL women have menstruations. I know for a scientific fact that not ALL women experience discomfort. I know for a scientific fact that some women have it irregularly like once every other month. And I know for a scientific fact that some women will have it for only like two days and then they are done with it. So adding the definite article "AL" to the word "maheeDd" would make it ONE SPECIFIC thing that applies to all women across the world and I'm sure you know just as well as I do that this would be absolute nonsense.

But if it is the time of menstruation, then why ask the nabiyy who is not a woman and does not have a menstruation cycle that he goes through? There are many verses in The Quran where the nabiy is directly instructed to ASK someone something in order to get details and/or clarification of somethings. Just look at 2/211, 7/163 and 10/94 just to name a few. If the nabiyy in these verses is told to ask other people about things he does not know about, wouldn't it make more since to also instruct him to ask WOMEN about menstruation if menstruation was a subject of The Quran? (which it is not by the way) And if it is the time of mensuration, then answer that is given in the traditonal translations does not match up to the question that is asked. If the question is about the TIME of menstruation, then why do the traditional translations have Tell them in it it is pain/discomfort as the answer? If they are asking about the TIME of menstruation, why is the nabiyy telling them about its EFFECTS instead ?

Please have a look at 2/221 to get an idea of the CONTEXT that 2/222 is placed in. This verse is saying to NOT make an agreements, bonds or social contracts with the mushrikaat be they individuals or parties. I am of the view that it is talking about parties because of the inclusion of the definite article. Again, if it was only speaking of mushrikaat in general then it would not include the definite article in front of the group name for these people. Without the definite article keeps it general. With the definite article makes it a very specific group of people. Same thing for the Mushrikeen mentioned later on in this verse. But they are told not to make an agreement with the Mushrikaat and the Mushrikeen as long as they are not sharing the same conviction to The Quranic cause as yourselves. It is better to make agreements with other people who share the same conviction of The Quranic Mission as you do no matter how fascinating and alluring the Mushrikaat and Mushrikeen may seem to you. The Mushrikaat and The Mushrikeen are inviting you towards a path of chaos and destruction whereas the injunctions, statutes and ordinances of Allah are inviting you to a Garden Like environment based as a reward for your work and efforts towards this goal.

For the definition of fire please have a look at 3/103.

So now we move from 2/221 to 2/222 keeping mind the context of conflict and political strife and activities. The word maheeDd comes from the root word Ha-Yaa-Dodd and the basic definitions of this root word are for water to rise and flow. It's basic meaning is simply to flow. The word "heeDd" which some people use as the word for menstruation is also actually used to describe the red water that comes out of a babool tree (which is a certain type of cactus). It is also used to describe the gum and sap from the acacia tree too. By the way, these definitions are given in "Lughaatul Quran" which is a Quranic Lexicon compiled by the late Allamah Ghulam Ahmed Parvez. The similarity between these things and a woman's menses is what compelled the translators, Imams and Sheikhs to use this word to mean mense. HOWEVER this may come as a shock to some people but this word DOES NOT mean MENSE!! Including the word "heeDd". The ACTUAL word for mense is Ttamth which means menstruation and menstrual discharge according to Hans Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic on page 665. There is ANOTHER meaning associated with this word and that is a woman's vagina which bleeds due to menstruation AND/OR losing her virginity. In other words , as they say here in America, to have her "cherry busted" (my sincerest and deepest apologies ladies). The root that this word comes from is Ttaa-Meem-Thaa and one of the meanings of this word word is for a vagina to bleed for the first time rather it be from menstruation or losing her virginity. This word is still used today by Arabs to describe a woman's menstruation.

Now here's the question that needs to be asked and examined...

There are two words that are used to mean menstruation, HeeDd and Ttemth. The root word that heeDd comes from means TO FLOW and that is it. This FLOWING description can apply to any liquid and any source. It does not "inherently" mean to bleed or for a woman to have her menses. Ttemth, on the other hand, means ONLY blood from a woman's vagina and it applies to loss of virginity AND to the menstrual discharge. HHhmmmmmm.... hmm I'll let you take it from there.

So keeping in mind that heeDd does not inherently mean menstruation and the CONTEXT of 2/221 through 2/223 we can look at what 2/222 is really saying.

The prefix MA (in MA-heeDd) is usually used for a place in which the verb it modifies is enacted or done. It makes it into a noun of place. For example, KaTaBa means to write or to scribe or to record in writing. A MAktaab is a Library, Bookstore, Office or even a Desk ( a place where writing is done and stored). DaRaSa is to inform or teach and give lessons. A MAdrasa is a school. A place for learning and teaching. But this prefix is also used as for nouns of time as well. For example, we have the word Wa-3a-Da (Waw-3ayn-Daal) which means to give or make a promise. Then we have the word Maw'3id which means appointment or date. Hence a time in which the promise is to be taken up. These sort of words (nouns of time and place) will almost always go by the Maf3al or the Maf3eel measure. MaheeDd is obviously of the Maf3eel measure. So MaheeDd is either the time or place of something which rises and flows. The thing in the context of 2/221 - 2/223 which rises and flows looks to me to be chaos, pain and suffering. Due to the fighting aspects of these conflicts, I have no problem with saying that "blood" may rise and flow...in essence "Bloodshed"!! But this booldshed is not rseerved for women. No, not all. How often in a war do you see people making efforts to shed the blood of only the women and not the men? If anything, most invading armies make it a point to kill the males and keep the women alive (unfortunately). So this is THE TIME or THE PLACE of bloodshed.

Here is an alternative translation of 2/222 based on all that was discussed up to this point

"They ask you about the times of bloodshed (occuring because of war/conflicts/political strife). tell them in it it is pain and suffering, so keep away from the weaker segments that are involved in this bloodshed (meaning don't get involved in the bloodshed/violence along with them) until they make efforts to separate (cleanse) themselves from non-Quranic commandments and activities. Don't make any commitment or agreements with them. However, when they are finally cleansed from the non-Quranic commandments and practices then you may approach them as instructed in the the commandment given . No doubt The state of Allah has love and compassion for those who are constantly turning towards us and loves those who purify themselves from non-Quranic commandments and ways of living."

And the best rendition I can come up with for 2/223 would be

"Your people who are of the weaker and forgotten segments of society are the ones who you are to plant seeds among and nurture for the establishment, refinement, expansion and maintanence of a society based on Quranic Laws and Permanent Values. So you can approach and instill these values in them however you think is best. Treat them socially and personally with respect which you learn beforehand through your own adoption of the permanent values. And stay ever mindful of Allah and your duties to Allah and that you must face Allah for judgement of your interactions among each other. Proclaim this good and fair mandate to this who have conviction in our laws."

I am going to reiterate something that I said earlier which is that I do not normally do translation because a translation STILL DOES NOT fully convey the CONCEPTS of each Arabic word and the overwhelming message of each verse. This is why what I have done above is not word for word literal. My rendention is based on my understanding of the overwhelming message of 2/223 and the concepts underlying each and every word in this verse.

My apologies for such a long post, but I felt that I needed to cover a lot of ground in order to do full justice to your question.

"The Quran is NOT a Religious book geared towards men alone. It is a book of Social Justice geared towards women and men equally.The Quran is a document outlining the implementation of JUSTICE. It is NOT only upon males to implement justice it is upon males and females alike. Because of this, a document concerned with JUSTICE FOR ALL must also ADDRESS ALL!! That is why you find 41 - 43 being addressed to ALL PEOPLE (An-Nas). It is addressing all people and the system of justice it recommends is for the benefit all people - 6/90, 12/104, 38/87, 43/44.

I hope I live long enough to see the day when The Quran is no longer viewed as a sexist, chauvinist, male centric religious book."

[Wakas]

Salaam all,

Damon states "He (Wakas) Does not answer questions that are asked of him even though the other person answered his."

Yet doesn't explain which questions and we are all still waiting for him to answer multiple questions asked of him, including one almost at the very beginning of this thread, i.e. reply #5 "And there is absolutely nothing hard for The Quran to use the appropriate pronoun. For example, IF, as you seemingly claim, "nisa" is not "women" then please explain why Quran in 43 uses "fawidatan" or in 44 uses "aduqtihinna" etc etc."

Damon states "He (Wakas) claims that my points have been refutted."

I used the word "countered" not "refuted", which looked up in a dictionary basically means "opposing", "contrary" etc. If I was all about winning an argument as Damon claims in his typical ad-hominen diatribe, I'd have used "refuted".

Damon states "notice that UQ produced Zero Evidence to support what he has said in his posts which Wakas accepted at face value. What is wrong with this picture? Isn't Wakas the one he DEMANDS EVIDENCE for every claim made? If I were to do what UQ has done which is make claims without giving evidence for the claims, Wakas would have dismissed the information because it did not come with any evidence. Do you guys not see the double standards and hypocrisy being practiced by Wakas or am I the only person seeing this?"

Firstly, anyone who can read carefully can see uq provided evidence (reference).
Secondly, here are clear examples of when I required further evidence based on what uq said
"Of course, I am aware that he did not provide a reference for "ma" very occasionally referring to sentient beings in Classical Arabic and/or Quran, so this needs to be looked into."
"One example would suffice I think. If uq can share one, that would be handy."

Damon states "First point, the particle "" (ma) does not mean who. (man) means who and "" (ma) is NOT used in The Quran as a substitute for (man). Since Wakas is so big on evidence he should have asked UQ to present a line in the Quran where "" (ma) is used to obviously mean who; where it can only mean who and nothing else. "

To anyone who can read carefully, they will see uq did provide an example, i.e. "ma malakat aymanukum".
Further, with Noon's example above, these should suffice.

Damon states "Every Singular Word W. Wright included in his grammar book have their own plural forms which come from the same root letters as their singular forms. Every Word including the words for mouth and the word for mole."

Everyone can see for themselves
http//s10.postimage.org/581165nl5/roots.jpg

Perhaps Damon can explain why Wright says what he says then, underlined in red.

And here it is again, a list of Damon's unanswered questions
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604721.msg315351#msg315351

Unanswered questions

1. "And there is absolutely nothing hard for The Quran to use the appropriate pronoun. For example, IF, as you seemingly claim, "nisa" is not "women" then please explain why Quran in 43 uses "fawidatan" or in 44 uses "aduqtihinna" etc etc."
   Damon claimed in reply #10 of this thread "You obviously do not know the answer to this BUT I DO." - yet we are still waiting for him to attempt an answer.

2. Potential problems based on Damon's understanding of 43. Note this is only problems resulting from this verse, there are other verses as pointed out by member Noon.
   Quote from Wakas
   You say "al-yataam" are "those who are left alone in society to fend for themselves and who can use a helping hand (Al Yatamaa)" but the verses clearly talk about their wealth, as in they have some. You never explained that. You also set a dangerous precedent if you imply when Quran uses "their" X, it may not actually be "theirs" as such but it means what they are entitled to justly speaking. This would require further investigation.

Also, you never explained how people are meant to practically determine whom falls under the category of "...a "Sub Group" of the overall group of Yatamaa. The Nisaa' are oblivious to the fact that they have been socio-economically manuevered into being left as sheep in a world of wolves. "

You never explained why leave out the non-nisa from al yataam when making bond/contract etc, i.e. why only help those who are oblivious/forgetful from those who could use a helping hand. So they need a helping hand, but dont help them?

Your understanding also causes issues in the verses which follow, e.g. those who are oblivious/forgetful can tibna part of saduqat, implying they can think/discern/determine this.
You also talk about mutual agreement, but having this from people who are deemed "oblivious/forgetful" seems odd.

3. can you find another example wherein "an-nisa" are doing a masculine verb. Since "nisa" is used 59 times in Quran, finding an example shouldn't be too difficult.

Quote from Mazhar
The Subject of Verb is never in genitive case as in 4/3 is .

Preposition "Min" is used in Qur'aan perhaps more than 1500 times, just search, one will never find its object noun as subject of a verb.

The reason I cite the above is because there are over a thousand examples in Quran of 'subject of a verb' and use of "min" prior to noun, thus to disprove what Mazhar said with one or two examples from Quran should be relatively simple, IF Damon is correct.

[Shirley]

Dear StopS, I don't mind if you have further questions for me or if you wish for me to address any of your concerns or objections. We can walk through it all together if you'd like.

Dear Inquisitivetrini,

We can now move on to your questions

Peace Shirley,

For me, it is very difficult to follow the discussion because I'm very new at this "finding the Arabic root" thing. English is my only language. '(

You guys are discussing linguistics in depth and it is very hard for me to look at what you're referencing because then I have to utilize my brain to it's fullest extent trying to see where all the terms occur and at what level. I have no idea what an Arabic "Jussive mood" is or whatever or how words are feminine or masculine and whatever. I will eventually learn these things, of course, but I easily understand basic explanations of the subject. For instance, the post you began with was one that I understood fully. You showed instances where the word "Nisa" was used and why it cannot mean women and I picked up on that quickly.

But know the conversation has gotten a bit too specific for me. I need help understanding this and the only way for me to understand this is if you present a translation and then explain why that translation works. It is this method that I can understand and I know I can understand it because of reading several articles on free-minds that use this exact method (What's in the Name, Free Choice, etc).

So I'm sorry, I've tried to read the argument here but I cannot follow. So my experience reading this now is like reading a foreign language with a few accusative English words sprinkled in so that the only thing I understand is that you two are in a disagreement and accusing each other of certain things. For me, this is very frustrating to read and as you can see, it took me about 20 minutes or so to understand a simple explanation of linguistics in Bender's quote. I really need some help understanding. Perhaps you could PM me and others who want to know?

Peace and blessings Released, Shirley, and everyone here! yay

Keeping You, Released, StopS and other people in mind, I tried my best to eliminate any confusions of the grammar by getting rid of the textbook grammar terminologies. I'm sorry if I didn't do an adequate job of doing that. In fact, if you are learning Arabic in order to engage the Quran in its own language you don't need to learn the grammatical terminologies. You only need to know how they function. For example, possession in Arabic has a terminology for it and that term is Idafa. You don't need to memorize the word Idafa, you just need to be able to recgonize a possessive structure in a sentence when you come across it while reading The Quran in Arabic. I am of the opinion when a person deliberately tries to dazzle people with the grammatical terms and textbook definitions do so in order to impress others and maybe even intimidate others and give themselves an "air of authority". I always try my best to refrain from doing such a thing and again my apologies if I did a poor job of this.

Anyway, although I said that I am not one for doing translations I guess I have no choice but to honor your request to a certain extant. I cannot give you a word for word literal translation because each Arabic word packs a lot of information in them and to try and choose one English equivalent for these words would do the message of The Quran an injustice in my humble opinion. This will always be a shortcoming of all translations because one can only choose so many words to convey the concepts of the Quranic words and verses and to choose the wrong English words or too few words as an equivalent of an Arabic word has the risk of falling short of conveying the intended message. But I will give it a shot starting from 4/1 and going through 4/3.

4/1

• Oh People/Mankind

• Be mindful and regardfull of your Nourisher and Sustainer who formed/molded you from one essential reality

• And formed/molded from this same essential reality its relative counterpart or pair (the other side of this reality, i.e. good and bad, male and female, justice and injustice, tyranny/oppression and freedom, etc).

• And spread out far and wide many a strong people and nation and weaker people and nations from these pair/dual reality.

• And be mindful and regardful of Allah by/through which you ask or expect that which is your inherent and due rights (as human beings brought into existence by the same creator, placed in the same environment and requiring the same resources for your nourishment and development physically, intellectually, economically and morally). Certainly Allah is supervising and taking into consideration what you all are doing.

4/2

• And produce economic empowerment for the benefit of those who are left alone to fend for themselves in society. This is their basic human right and is what is owed and due to them.

• And DO NOT exchange that which is just and correct for that which is unjust and incorrect.

• And DO NOT monopolize and keep for yourselves what they have rightful entitlement to in regards of economic resources and earning opportunities.

• To do so is MOST CERTAINLY a great and terrible travesty against the human condition.

4/3

• And if you all have a lingering fear that you will not be able to act with equity and justice concerning those who are left alone and castrated in society.

• Then intermingle/establish contractual relationships as long as he agreed to it for you with those from among the weaker and forgotten segment of society.

• two at a time, three at a time or four at a time.

• But if you all fear that you will not be able to do full justice with such an arrangement, then one is enough per contract/agreement or whatever is already under your care and charge.

• That way you will not be placed under undo hardship and struggle.

So, to answer your question Released, YES, I am offering an alternative translation of Nikah from what the traditional translations offer. Again, feel free to offer whatever feedback, concerns, criticisms, objections, additional questions and I will reply as soon as possible.

A quick note on my rendition of this part of 4/3 ( - Then intermingle/establish contractual relationships as long as he agreed to it for you with those from among the weaker and forgotten segment of society.)

As I have been pointing out in this thread both the word Taaba ( ) and An-Nisaa' ( ) are 3rd Person Mentioned words. The word Taaba ( ) can be acted out by another 3rd person party not mentioned (such as The Quranic Government or whoever is in charge of overseeing the "Nikah" operation) OR by An-Nisaa'. I personally take the view that it is acted out by those who are from among AnNisaa' because they are the ones who are mentioned in this verse and I am big fan of clarity concerning those talked to or talked about in The Quran. Also, I don't think only the person or people overseeing the operation of the Social Relationships between those from among the Nisaa and those who aren't not from among them should have the only say regarding who gets a social contract with who. I think those from among the Nisaa' would have to first agree to whatever the terms are of the contract in question and the relationship that will be established based on it.

The traditional translations render this sentence as whatever pleases you or whatever you think is good or something along those lines. Here are a few traditional translations of this verse

(Yusuf Ali) If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

(Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthal) And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

(Muhammad Asad) And if you have reason to fear that you might not act equitably towards orphans, then marry from among women such as are lawful to you - two, or three, or four but if you have reason to fear that you might not be able to treat them with equal fairness, then one - or those whom you rightfully possess. This will make it more likely that you will not deviate from the right course.

(Shakir) And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

There are two issues I have with the traditional translation of this verse and their rendering of the word "Taaba". First issue is that these translations make it appear as though the 2nd Person audience (who are the addressees) are the ones who are somehow acting out this 3rd Person Verb and I see this as a serious folly. The second issue I have is that they doctor up this folly by giving the 3rd Person Active Verb a 2nd Person Passive Voice which is what they are essentially doing with words such as "who seem good to you". In other words, they are saying the word Taaba should be translated as Is Good. This is terribly wrong. Even as a Non Arab I can tell you with 100% certainty that this is terribly, terribly wrong. But grammatical rules are routinely ignored and overruled by a religious ideology which is clouding people's vision and preventing them from giving a true linguistic translation of this verse (and many, many verses of the Quran).

There IS a word which means good or lawful or agreeable and that word is Tayyib. The feminine form of this word (with Ta Marbuta) is Tayyibaat and This is the word that should be used if the Nisaa' are a bunch of women and the Nisaa' are certainly the people acting out the verb Taaba. And there are also grammatical rules which would take the 3rd person past tense verb Taaba ( as an irregular hollow verb) and morph it into a present tense passive and that is simply not what we see in 4/3. At the risk of sounding arrogant or argumentative, I must say it really is as simple as that.

I am not going to try and dazzle you with traditional explanations and Tafseer Sciences to make it seem like An-Naas are the ones acting upon the verb Taaba. I am giving you the straight no chaser grammatical structure of this verse with absolutely no additives or preservatives. nope

[Noon_waalqalami]

...So MaheeDd is either the time or place of something which rises and flows....
So this is THE TIME or THE PLACE of bloodshed.

What did it mean to Arabs -- any mention of war?

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

y d = To have her courses, menstruate; Her blood flowed from her womb, to attain the age of menstruation, to make a thing flow.
hada vb. (1) impf. act. 654
mahid n.m. 2222
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 322, 323

1 , (S, A, Msb, K,) aor. , inf. n. and (S, Msb, K) and , (Aboo-Is-h?k, K,) said of a woman, (S, A, Msb, K,) She menstruated; i. e. her blood flowed; (A or blood came forth from her womb; (Mgh as also or this latter signifies she likened herself to the . (TA.) -b2- Also She attained the age of menstruation. (TA.) -b3- , (S, A, Msb,) aor. as above, (Msb,) inf. n. , (S, Msb,) The flowed with, (S,) or emitted, (A,) a matter resembling blood; (S, A flowed with its gum (Msb the matter which it emits is called ; and is applied to the head of a new-born infant to scare away the j?nn, or genii. (A, TA ) -b4- The torrent overflowed; or poured out, or forth, from fullness; or ran; syn. . (TA.) 2 He attributed to the woman. (Msb.) -b2- , (TK,) inf. n., (Sgh, K,) Tempore men- struorum inivit ancillam suam. (Sgh, K, TK.) -b3- , (TK,) inf. n. as above, (K,) He made the water to flow. (K, TA.)

5 see 1. -b2- Also She abstained form prayer (&#1577 during the days of her ; (S, Msb, K, TA waiting for the stopping of the blood(TA or she abstained, and did as the does (A, * Mgh or she reckoned herself , and did as the does. (TA.) 10 , (S, Mgh, Msb,) in the pass. form, (Msb,) with damm to the , (Mgh,) found in the handwriting of Aboo-Zekereey? , (TA,) She continued to have a flow of blood (S, Mgh) after her days (S or she had an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb or her blood flowed without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (TA.) . -b2- A thing which flows from the , resembling . (Mgh.) A single time, or turn, of menstruation, or of the flow of the menstrual blood (S, * A, * Mgh, Msb *) pl. ; (A, Msb like as is pl. of , and of , and of , and of ; though by rule it should be . (Msb.) You say, and and . (A.) -b2- As used by the professors of practical law, The accustomed days thereof. (Mgh.) -b3- Also A single flow pl. . (TA.) the subst. from (S, K, TA or a mode, or manner, or state, of (Msb or the state (Mgh, TA) of the , (TA,) which is one of avoidance (Mgh, TA) of prayer and fasting and the like (Mgh pl.. (S, Msb.) -b2- Also The menstrual blood; the blood of menstruation; and so and . (TA.) -b3- Also The piece of rag which the binds over her vulva; (S, Mgh, * Msb, * K and so (S which latter also signifies a piece of rag thrown away (TA pl. of the latter, . (S, TA.) see . , applied to a woman, act. part. n. from ; (S, Mgh, Msb, K thus, because it is an epithet of particular application ; (Msb and with ', being like and &c.; (TA and in like manner also, (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) on the authority of Fr (S pl. (of the former, Msb) , (S, Mgh, Msb, K,) like as is pl. of , (Msb,) and , like as is pl. of , (TA,) and of the latter, , (Msb,) or . (S, Mgh, K.) -b2- In a certain trad., in which it is said that God will not accept the prayer of a unless she be with a , this does not mean one who is menstruating while actually occupied by prayer, (Msb, TA, *) but One who has attained to the age of menstruation; (TA or one who has attained to womanhood (Mgh or it has not this meaning; for if it had, one would understand that a girl not arrived at puberty might pray with her head uncovered, which is not the case; but it means the menstruating kind, whether she have attained to puberty or not; as though the term female had been used in its place. (Msb.) is a simple subst. as well as an inf. n. (Zj, K as the former, it is a n. of place; and as such it is used in the Kur ii. 222; meaning A woman's ; (Zj her ; (Mgh because it is the place of . (Zj, Mgh.) Some say that is hence derived; because the water flows to the (Az, K for the Arabs put in the place of , and in that of. (Az, TA.) -b2- It is also a n. of time . (TA.) -b3- See also . -b4- When it is a simple subst., it has a pl., namely . (TA.) see . A woman continuing to have a flow of blood after her days (S or having an exuberance of blood ; not what is termed (Msb or having her blood flowing without stopping, not on certain days, nor from the vein of menstruation, but from a vein called . (K, * TA.)

Here is an alternative translation of 2/222 based on all that was discussed up to this point

"They ask you about the times of bloodshed (occuring because of war/conflicts/political strife). tell them in it it is pain and suffering, so keep away from the weaker segments that are involved in this bloodshed (meaning don't get involved in the bloodshed/violence along with them) until they make efforts to separate (cleanse) themselves from non-Quranic commandments and activities. Don't make any commitment or agreements with them. However, when they are finally cleansed from the non-Quranic commandments and practices then you may approach them as instructed in the the commandment given . No doubt The state of Allah has love and compassion for those who are constantly turning towards us and loves those who purify themselves from non-Quranic commandments and ways of living."

And the best rendition I can come up with for 2/223 would be

"Your people who are of the weaker and forgotten segments of society are the ones who you are to plant seeds among and nurture for the establishment, refinement, expansion and maintanence of a society based on Quranic Laws and Permanent Values. So you can approach and instill these values in them however you think is best. Treat them socially and personally with respect which you learn beforehand through your own adoption of the permanent values. And stay ever mindful of Allah and your duties to Allah and that you must face Allah for judgement of your interactions among each other. Proclaim this good and fair mandate to this who have conviction in our laws."

Thus according to you ...

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the bloodshed from nisakum/weaker and forgotten segments yours (m) if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier

[Noon_waalqalami]

4/3

• Then intermingle/establish contractual relationships as long as he agreed to it for you with those from among the weaker and forgotten segment of society...

I am giving you the straight no chaser grammatical structure of this verse with absolutely no additives or preservatives. nope

What did it mean to Arabs?

and and A woman who is supposed to be pregnant; (K as also (A, K) and (A or in whom pregnancy has appeared (K or, (K) and , (TA,) as also , accord. to J and IM, but this is rejected by F, (TA,) a woman whose menstrual discharge is later than its usual time, and who is therefore hoped to be pregnant (S, K pl. and and is also said; and sometimes the sing. (&#1612, being originally an inf. n., is used as a pl. (TA.)

One who mixes, or converses, with others ex. He is one who mixes, or converses, with women. (K.)

The Fakeeh of the Arabs says, (S, * TA

An Arabic-English Lexicon. London. Williams and Norgate. 1863. Edward William Lane.

Thus according to you...

422 and not you marry whom married your fathers from the weaker and forgotten (includes males according to you and one can marry ?strong segments" whom married your fathers according to you nope

423 ...
and mothers nisakum/weaker and forgotten yours (mother's of the strong permitted according to you nope and your step daughters the ones who in your guardianship from nisakum/weaker and forgotten yours the ones whom entered in them so if not you were entered in them so not blame upon you ?

56 O you the ones who believe when you stand up to the prayer so wash your faces and your hands to the elbow and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles and if you are impure so purify yourselves and if you are sick or on journey or comes one from among you from the toilet or you touched the the weaker and forgotten nope ...

whatever

[savage_carrot]

654 and the ones (f) who despaired from the bloodshed from nisakum/weaker and forgotten segments yours (m) if you doubt so their waiting period three ashr/cycles and the ones (f) not yaid'na? and those the pregnant their term that they put aside their loads (i.e. give birth) and from fears The God He makes for him from His directive easier
Good points Noon, was wondering the same. Hopefully, the explanations are pregnant with possibilities, or not.

[huruf]

Abounding on the morphology of "nisaa'".

Could some of the well versed in that part make a list or exposition of the morphological possibilities of the word according to each of the three possible roots from which it might be derived? Also of the any other factor that might be of interest.

Thanks and salaam

I reiterate this request.

I mainly refer to nisaa' as coming from three different roots

hamza-n-s
n-s-hamza
or
n-s-w

As stated in previous messages, I find that the first root listed seems more likely than the other two, but would be nice to have a detailed statement of the possibilities of derivation of the word with their pros and cons, from the morphological point of view.

Salaam

[Wakas]

On multiple occasions, Damon says

What I DO KNOW for a 100% FACT is that Taaba is referring to Al-Yatamaa.

Wakas, I don't think, I know that Taaba is referring to An-Nisaa' in 4/3.

The issue of Taaba and WHO it is referring to. I made myself clear that it is referring to An-Nisaa'.

I am stating it again for all to see. The word Taaba in 4/3 is referring to An-Nisaa'......

Evidence # 1 established.

But now says...

The word Taaba ( ) can be acted out by another 3rd person party not mentioned (such as The Quranic Government or whoever is in charge of overseeing the "Nikah" operation) OR by An-Nisaa'.

[Wakas]

Salaam Noon, all,

To allow others to insert Damon's understanding of "nisa" into Quran more easily, to see what happens, the following is an excerpt from Concordance of Quran by Hanna E Kassis (note OCR, i.e. machine read, and traditional/common translation).

Insert nisa = oblivious/forgotten/weaker ones

249 (46) slaughtering your sons, and sparing your women

• 2187 (183) permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast,. is.to go in to your wives
  2222 (222) go apart from women during the monthly course
  -.2223. (223) your women are a tillage for you
  2226 (226) for those who forswear their women a wait of four months
  2231 (231) when you divorce women, and they have reached their term
  2232 (232) when you divorce women, and they have reached their term
  2235 (235) there is no fault in -you touching the proposal to women you offer
  2236 (237) if you divorce women while as yet you have not touched them
  314 (12) - women, children, heaped-up heaps of gold
  342 (37) He has chosen thee above all women
  361 (54) our wives and your (wives)
  361 (54) our (wives) and your wives
• 41 (1) from the pair of them scattered abroad many men and women
  43 (3) marry such women. as seem good to you, two, three, four
  44 (3) . give the women their dowries as a gift spontaneous
  47 . to the women a share of what.parents and kinsmen leave.
  411 (12) 'if they be women above two, then forthem two-thirds
  415 (19) such of your women as commit indecency-
  419 (23) it is not lawful for'you to inherit women against their will
  422 (26) do not marry women that your fathers married
  423 (27) your suckling sisters, your wives' mothers
  423 (27) being born of your wives you have been in to
  424 and wedded women, save what your right hands own
• 432 (36) to the women a share from what they have earned
  434 men are the managers of the affairs of women"
  443 (46) or you have touched women, and you can find no water
  475 (77) for the men, women, and children 'who, being abased, say
  498 (100) except the men, women, and children who, being abased
  4127 (126) they will ask thee for a pronouncement concerning women
  4127 (126) to you in the Book concerning the orphan women
  4129 you will not be able to be equitable between your wives
  4176 (175) the male shall receive the portion of two females
  56 (9) or you have touched women, and you can find no water
  781 (79) see, you approach men lustfully instead of women "
  7127 (124) we shall slaughter their sons and spare their women
  7141 (137) . slaying your sons, ,and sparing your women
  146 (6) slaughtering your sons, and sparing your womeri
  2431 (31) say to the believing women, that they cast down their eyes
  2431 (31) or their sisters' sons,-or-their women
  2460 (59) such women as are past child-bearing and have no hope of marriage
  2755 (56) what, do you approach men lustfully instead of women?
  284 (3) slaughtering their sons, and sparing their women
  3330 (30) Wives of the Prophet, whosoever among you commits a flagrant indecency
  3332 (32) Wives of the Prophet, you are-not as other (women)
  3332 (32) (Wives) of the Prophet you are not asother women
  3352 (52) thereafter Women are not lawful to thee
  3355 (55) their women, and what their right hands own
  3359 (59) say to thy (wives) and daughters'and the'believing women
  4025 (26) slay the sons of those who believe with him, and spare their women
  4825 (25) if it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers
  4911 (11) neither let women scoff at (women) who may be better than themselves
  4911 (11) neither let (women) scoff at women who may be better than themselves
  582 (2) those of you who say, regarding their wives
  583 (4) and those who say, regarding their wives
  651 (1) When you divorce women, divorce them when they have reached their period
  654 (4) as for your women who have despaired of further menstruating

NISWAH n.f. (pl.; see nisa', above)-women
*1230 (30) certain women that were in the city said
1250 (50) what of the women who cut their hands?

Or look up here for detail http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nsw

You will no doubt see many many potential problems that need resolving.

[Mazhar]

Brother Wakas, and Noon,

I wish to draw your attention to an information given in Qur'aan, that is relevant to the scene now obtaining on this thread.

It is that you cannot make a deaf person listen when he has turned his back towards you.

Bob asked on the thread

What is the evidence for Nisa being women?

I replied

Millions of living Arabic speaking population.

But you read out billions of pages written in Arabic by pure Arabs which say that Nisa means and refers only to Women and Wives in possessive phrases; swith on the Arabic channels where native Arabs are talking and calling Nisa pointing women; to a deaf person not looking at you, he will not accept.

So humble advice, just relax and forget. I wish people benefit from your time saved from such deaf situations.

[bkanwar2]

Damon Bro, they will not lisen to you.

For 2222, following is the answer that I gave to some one.

, man I must admit you are good. This is a very shrewd observation. In 2222, word "Haiz" the first letter is , which is substituted here for in the written text. Hence, this word's root is ha-Ya-Dad and not Ha-Ya-Dad. The fact of consonant substitution is discussed in Lexicon but not well discussed in the Grammar books. When one gets stuck, this rule is usually the savior.

[Shirley]

Salaam Brother Badar,

I know certain people here are stuck in there N2I ways of thinking. My efforts in this thread are not for their benefit. It's for the benefit of the honest and sincere people who are willing to question the religious status quo and exercise logic and basic common sense.

Part of the problem is these people rush to rejection because they are assuming that all of the verses mentioning Nisaa are speaking of women and that they all have some sort of feminine context. I think the simplest thing to do (which is what I am trying to do here) is look at a couple of ayaat with Nisaa as the subject and see how it DOES NOT and CANNOT mean women. 4/3, 3/14 and 24/31 are just three such verses. Once We Ascertain That Nisaa Does Not Mean Women we are then forced to re-examine and reinterpret every verse that mentions this word. We are also forced to re-examine and re-interpret every word that is included in those same verses. It has become all too apparent that some people are strictly averse to doing any of this. I can only feel sorry for them. They were all born with brains but forsake using them. Honesty and the willingness to question things can carry us a long way.

No worries brother, you are doing very hard work in correcting the N2I nonsense that has been heaped on top of The Quran. You and I and our Quranic circles are planting the seeds right now. Due to dishonesty and stupidity it is only logical that some weeds will be present in the garden that you and I will eventually grow for humanity.

[bkanwar2]

Quranic understanding was lost when first translation was written. Since then what Muslim are following is the translation of the Quranic message; all of them with out realizing this fact at all. This includes a vast majority of so to called Quranists, as well. It is not just an issue of few words or terms or concepts being changed.

When a simple sentence of "Allahu La illah" can become whatever else it became, instead of "Allah is not an illah/god/a deity for worship". They rest had to become history.

Quran needs to be re understood letter by letter, sign by sign and word by word again. There are no short cuts for it. No tafseer no tasreef, until it is understood word by word.

Regards

[huruf]

NISWAH n.f. (pl.; see nisa', above)-women
*1230 (30) certain women that were in the city said

Or look up here for detail http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nsw

You will no doubt see many many potential problems that need resolving.

In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.

[Shirley]

Salaam Brother Badar,

Quranic understanding was lost when first translation was written. Since then what Muslim are following is the translation of the Quranic message; all of them with out realizing this fact at all. This includes a vast majority of so to called Quranists, as well. It is not just an issue of few words or terms or concepts being changed.

When a simple sentence of "Allahu La illah" can become whatever else it became, instead of "Allah is not an illah/god/a deity for worship". They rest had to become history.

Quran needs to be re understood letter by letter, sign by sign and word by word again. There are no short cuts for it. No tafseer no tasreef, until it is understood word by word.

Regards

I agree with you 100% Brother. We you are doing with your studying and translation work Has To Be Done. Sure, it's a hard task and will be an uphill battle, but it must be done. We didn't get into this mess overnight so we will not get out of it overnight either. It seems some people would rather stick with the traditional understanding due to intellectual laziness and quite possibly ulterior motives.

[Shirley]

In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.

That's a keen observation and further supports what I have been saying concerning 4/3. Thank You Very Much Huruf.

[savage_carrot]

In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.

If it's so, I agree...the alternative from the alternative side is what exactly? that nisa there is singular m? plural m? Forgotten (m) from the city said? Weak (m) said? What do we use to substitute nisa when there is no substitute offered that really makes sense everywhere without a whole lot of effort to insert? I'm really curious since I have no horse in this race. If there is a better option that makes sense, I'm all for it. If not, let's see why these apparent anomalies exist.

[huruf]

The morphological question from my point of view is fundamental. I am not an expert on it, but I do have enough experience and feeling (I think) to suspect that the root hamza-n-s for nisaa' is more fitting than n-s-hamza.

The variety n-s-w is something else, and the two times it appears and wakas has included in the list in one case, as I pointed out the verb is masculine singular and the subject is interpreted as feminine plural. In the other case both seem to be feminine plural.

Is there a difference (there must be) between niswa and nisaa'? If so what is it? And if there is no difference, there must be an explanation. What is it?

In one thing I do concur with shirley and it is that it is very odd, very striking, not to be brushed aside, that there should not be a plural for persons-women coming from the same root as the singular. I do not think there can be exageration in noting how strange that is, because finallly women are not something odd or rare in nature, particularly seen from the point of view of the human species, it is very common. If nisaa' was derived from root hamza-n-s it would be far more logical and far less odd that if it were to come from n-s-'.

I many instances the meaning of nisaa' as women as it appears inthe honourable Qur'an, for me fits too well and makes too much sense to discard. But I continue to have the feeling that the honoured Qur'an is 20 paces (at least) ahead of us and that we try to make it fit our lack of horizon instead of trying to open up our horizon.

Which is why I pointed out that there might be a sociological meaning to nisaa' and rijaal, yes, that the Qur'an indeed understands perfectly the concept of gender as distinct from sex. And consequently uses words to handle different aspects.

The Qur'an is consistent. I establishes and guarantees the due regards and safeguards for the category of women as the main executers of reproduction, but at not time establishes any gender roles.

We do have to open our fan of meanings and possibilities and not brush aside what poses problems under the rug. The Qur'an may have been revealed in the seventh century, but God is ageless and knows what he has created and what we hide and what we do not know that we hide.

So once more, please, somebody able to make a study of the morphological questions regarding the three different roots for the words nisaa'-niswa.

I for one would be grateful and very appreciative.

Salaam