If Mecca isn't the Qibla / Kaaba location, then...
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Salaam everybody! I just stumbled upon the idea/hypothesis that what we know today as Mecca, and the rituals associated with it, might be entirely wrong. I have been content for a while that the Qur'an is from God, but this has really throw me. Maybe you guys can help me with this
- Was Muhammad born in, and did he live around Jerusalem, more specifically in the Bacca / Bakkah area of Israel?
1a. Is Bacca/Bakkah a neighborhood in Jerusalem, or is it a valley, or both?
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If Muhammad was born in Israel, would that not mean that the Quraish (sp?), all of Muhammad's family, his wives, and so on were also? I thought they were an Arab tribe based in Arabia?
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Is Petra Sodom? If so, then Muhammad couldn't have lived there... it was destroyed, only remaining in ruins that, as the Qur'an says, he "Passed morning and night". Also, how can Petra be "the people of the elephant"? Again, the city was in ruins if it was Sodom.
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If, as Layth suggests, and the Qur'an seems to affirm, the Qibla was changed, then
*Where was it at first? Jerusalem? What's your proof?
*When it changed after Hijra, WHERE did it change to, if not Mecca / "the kaaba" in SA? Just a random direction (it was a test, after all), or some actual point?
*When it changed AGAIN ("...We see you turning your face toward heaven.... here's a Qibla that will please you...", where did it change to? Al-Aqsa / DOTR was bult after Muhammad's death, so how could that be Masjid al-Haram, aka "the real qibla"? Is the actual qibla / MAH the ruined Jewish temple? Evidence, please. )
*If it IS the Jewish temple ruins, then what about the fact that Christians, Jews, & Muslims won't ever / don't use the same qibla, according to the Qur'an? Is this not a contradiction?
- If pilgrimage / hajj is a continuous rite with all religions being, before their corruption, Islam (with perhaps some cultural variance), then did figures like Krishna and the Buddha, who I believe are likely Prophets, make hajj to Jerusalem (or wherever the Kaaba truly is)?
I know this is a lot to ask all at once, but I'd really appreciate any help you all can give. Thanks! )
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or perhaps the most fundamental question - Does Allah want us to seek out all these historical details?
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In the sense of "You must seek out these historical details as a matter of faith"? No, probably not. I mean, belief in God trumps where Muhammad was born.
However, the act of seeking out these details should not in any way contradict or weaken the Qur'an. In short, if the Qur'an is true, it will be proven true every time, no matter how deep you dig into history, no matter how much corroborating evidence you look for, and even no matter how hard you might try to disprove it.
So I'm still hoping for answers to this.
Right now, all I am is confused. lol
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Salam,
Forgive me if I don't quote all the relevant verses in my responce, but they should be easy to find.
- Was Muhammad born in, and did he live around Jerusalem, more specifically in the Bacca / Bakkah area of Israel?
From reading the Quran, we find that Mohammed during the revelations did move around.
In some verses, we have the Quran speaking of his people as "ummieen" (gentiles) and that they and their fathers never received a message - this could place him in Petra or Mecca Arabia.
In other verses we have God speaking to the people as "Custodians of the Restricted Temple" as well as speaking of the pilgrimage - meaning that he was located at that time at the site of the Temple.
We also read that he was "expelled" from his place - at least once.
1a. Is Bacca/Bakkah a neighborhood in Jerusalem, or is it a valley, or both?
The valley of Bakka mentioned in the OT lead to mount Zion. So the name appears to be of the area of the Temple. In current Jewish maps, it is a district of Jerusalem.
- If Muhammad was born in Israel, would that not mean that the Quraish (sp?), all of Muhammad's family, his wives, and so on were also? I thought they were an Arab tribe based in Arabia?
I would wager Petra being the place of his birth and people (gentiles) - as well as the fact that the Arabic language was completed by the Nabateans who took Petra as their capitol - add to that the presence of Allat and Uzza statues uncovered in Petra - which are mentioned in the Quran by name.
- Is Petra Sodom? If so, then Muhammad couldn't have lived there... it was destroyed, only remaining in ruins that, as the Qur'an says, he "Passed morning and night". Also, how can Petra be "the people of the elephant"? Again, the city was in ruins if it was Sodom.
Soddom, from the context, seems to be within the vacinity of the Temple. This would place it somewhere near the Dead Sea, which valleyes from Jerusalem lead upto (the remains of Qumran on the Dead Sea seem to be the most plausible site).
- If, as Layth suggests, and the Qur'an seems to affirm, the Qibla was changed, then
*Where was it at first? Jerusalem? What's your proof?
*When it changed after Hijra, WHERE did it change to, if not Mecca / "the kaaba" in SA? Just a random direction (it was a test, after all), or some actual point?
*When it changed AGAIN ("...We see you turning your face toward heaven.... here's a Qibla that will please you...", where did it change to? Al-Aqsa / DOTR was bult after Muhammad's death, so how could that be Masjid al-Haram, aka "the real qibla"? Is the actual qibla / MAH the ruined Jewish temple? Evidence, please.
*If it IS the Jewish temple ruins, then what about the fact that Christians, Jews, & Muslims won't ever / don't use the same qibla, according to the Qur'an? Is this not a contradiction?
Lots of questions in one...The Qibla was always to the Restrictd Temple as Mohammed was simply carrying on the teachings of Abraham. The evidence lays in the Mosque with 2 Qiblas in Medina - one of which points to Jerusalem, the other opposite. Also, this seems to be uncontested even amongst the sects - which, though it does not add much value, is an interesting phenomenan.
As for the change, it was simply away from Jerusalem (opposite). Mecca Arabia does not fit if a straight line is drawn through Medina.
Where the change was to, was back to the Restricted Temple. That the Jewish temple was destroyed according to history is not of much consequence as the Jewish temple is unclear in its location in Jerusalem and may have been meters away from the Restricted Temple (which we know because the Jews are still looking for the remains of the temple 60 years since they took Palestine). The Dome of the rock has always stood there in one form or another (the rock is part of the landscape) and infrared images do show an octaganol foundation older than the current structure.
- If pilgrimage / hajj is a continuous rite with all religions being, before their corruption, Islam (with perhaps some cultural variance), then did figures like Krishna and the Buddha, who I believe are likely Prophets, make hajj to Jerusalem (or wherever the Kaaba truly is)?
All prophets would have called to Hajj. The people you speak of may have been messengers - not prophets - as they did not come with any new revelation.
Regards,
Layth
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Thanks for your info, Layth. peace I do have a couple more questions, though...
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If Masjid-al-Haram is what we now call Al-Aqsa, then where is the real "most distant mosque" that God took Muhammad to by night? If it's in another universe / on another plane of existence, does that not contradict the verses of the Qur'an that say Muhammad never ascended to heaven in any form? If so, and it must be on Earth, then where did he go?
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Regarding Krishna, etc., are the Vedas and so on not revelation, albeit corrupted ones? If they aren't (and I can accept either premise), whose revelation - that is, what earlier Prophet - were they following?
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Also, on another matter, how could Jesus raise anyone from the dead, even by God's permission, if there is a barrier / partition separating the deceased from the living until the Last Day? Also, did Allah violate His own laws when he resurrected others mentioned in the Qur'an?
Thanks for your input. Have a good day!
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Peace Layth,
I've been following the discussion as this topic interests me as well. You said that Buddha and Krishna were not given revelation? How can you be sure of this? I know their scriptures and texts and are not named specifically in the Quran; but neither are they or their disciples mentioned by name. Would it not be pure speculation to say that neither were given any revelation?
I've read these scriptures and have found strong monotheistic elements, along with codes of conduct for those who choose to embrace the message. Even these scriptures contain a great deal of history and are written within a specific context. Though, they may not embody the perfection of the Quran; would it not be to fair to say that they may have been revelations that were either corrupted or altered with time and conflict?
I apologize for getting off topic. I just happened to disagree with that commentary.
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Here is news for proponent of Qibla at Jerusalem.
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1082648.stmQueen of Sheba's temple restored
The temple is thought to be 3,000 years old Archaeologists investigating the legendary kingdom of Sheba in the Yemeni province of Marib, have finished restoring an ancient temple which they believe could become one of the world's great tourist sites.
Six columns mark the entrance to the "Throne of Balqis", which is 15m (50ft) high and features a podium, a courtyard, a high wall and an irrigation canal.
According to scholars, the temple was built in the 10th Century BC at the time of Balqis, the Queen of Sheba, and access was restricted to the kingdom's elite.
Canadian, German and US archaeologists are now preparing to excavate another site 3km (1.8 miles) to the east, the Awam, or Moon temple, which should provide more insight on the Sheba civilisation.
Cultural centerpiece
"Marib was for centuries the political, economic and religious centre of the once-mighty kingdom of Sheba, referred to in the Torah, the Bible and the Koran," said Burkhard Vogt, head of the German team.
The temple dates from the tenth century BC "Arsh Balqis has been known to be a temple since 1988," he said, using the Arabic name for throne.
"When we started excavations in 1988, there was nothing apart from a 3m (10ft) hill with columns jutting out and some blocks of stone," said another German archaeologist.
German financed teams have been digging in the area since 1988, but the site has only been open to the public since November.
However, the area is considered a no-go zone for Western tourists because of the high risk of kidnapping by Yemeni bandits.
Ancient relic
The throne is the only vestige to be unearthed of a civilization founded in the 10th Century BC and which reached its peak between the eighth and first centuries BC.
Yemen can be a dangerous place for tourists According to Christian tradition Balqis was the wife of Solomon, theancient king renowned for his wisdom.
The temple was abandoned after 14 centuries when the kingdom's subjects started to convert to Judaism and Christianity. The destruction of the Marib Dam in 572AD sealed its demise.
Archaeologists estimate enough remains to be unearthed at the site to keep them occupied for another decade and need a further $12m dollars to finance their work.
However, they are confident their research could unlock the mystery surrounding the legendary Queen of Sheba and the site could potentially become the eighth wonder of the world.
Question If Kingdom of Sheba was in Marib, Yemen; then where should be Kingdom of Solomon and First Temple of Solomon?
And what Jerusalem has to do with Prophet Solomon?
