Knocking on the doors of atheism
-
Hi StopS
Thank you for replying to my questions, I note that you do not wish to be quoted "out of context" and hope you would apply the same rule to others.Oh dear, the joke did not come through. Oh well, maybe next time.
A little girl who was about to enter a sweet shop was shot in a crossfire between two gangs,.... where do you see a biological failing in such a situation ???
Ah now I see it! How badly "designed" she was. The girl should have been designed according to YOUR standards just like a robot, where if you can take the bullet out and reconnect all the parts and off she goes, on and on and on, ! the gansters too should have been designed to hit the right target at the right time and place... Perfect.If you would check your writing you would find that your approach is upside down. Can a girl, who is passive, be a cause of anything? No. So what other options are there? Ah, the people shooting guns in an area where innocent people can get injured and even killed. So the shooter is biologically damaged and has no ethics conforming with the society he lives in, where his freedom stops where the next person's freedom starts. His attitude does not conform with that. I don't consider this trivial at all and a real problem within people.
My standards? What standards?
Mine are non-standards as I allow for every conceivable variation in humans. I don't care whether someone is Muslim, Christian, Jew, Zoroastrian, Jain, Taoist, Rastafarian, and so on. If someone thinks they were abducted by aliens that also fine. It's a belief, not a matter of design and not something they expect me to participate in.
Who is that Designer than -\
Do I really need to spell it out again? And again? How many times? I have said it only a few lines above nature. It is not a design of any kind or type, so I used the term in jest in inverted commas.
You don't answer my questions, but why are you so bent on making me out as stupid, immoral, callous and indifferent?
-
Well of course!
It is a spiritual question after all, isn't it?
Don't you see?- Is this logical?
- God does not need anything from anyone.
- if they want to be part of His kingdom.
A kingdom without subjects is not a kingdom.
Is this a question asking for a logical or spiritual explanation?
- How do you interpret "Allah created some people for hell and some people for paradise" and "We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us"?
Is this a question asking for a factual or spiritual explanation?
So, no, I was more after the facts and logics to understand the process.
-
May be before you understand the attributes of and for a god it will be a good idea to try and understand who is at your service desprately trying to restore the molecular damage caused by environmental and metabolically generated free radicals, by spontaneous errors in biochemical reactions, and by nutritional components.
Once you work this out you will see the proof for my statement.
ByeeeeeYou asked whether I was sure about my cells not reproducing properly and I said yes and showed evidence for this.
I also explained why your suggestion was not too well thought out.
You picked up on what I answered good logic.
You propose some being which you have not yet delivered evidence for, so why should I believe it exists? I ask you about this, but you don't answer questions.I ask a question - which, of course, you don't answer and then provide an answer to good logic
I have not been provided any evidence, why should I be punished for that?
Like I saidIf a god is omniscient, he will know what evidence I require.
If a god is omnipotent, he can provide the evidence I require.
If a god is merciful, he will provide the evidence I require.You don't answer my question but give me some vague, ambiguous, unspecific and quite useless advice. Nobody has mastered the ageing process, so your suggestion is science-fiction or pseudo-science, not to be taken seriously.
-
Because you addressed me in your post and quoted my words.
Otherwise, I do not bother at all, as stated here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604722.msg315431#msg315431Besides, I have no idea whether you are kafir or whatever, based on few lines one might write on Forum. It is for God to decide about us all, and He will inform us in the Hereafter.
Do you think you could refrain from using this very insulting and derogatory word?
-
Do I really need to spell it out again? And again? How many times? I have said it only a few lines above nature
Yes please do spell out to me. What is nature and how did this nature managed to design me and you so differently, us being of the same species?
You don't answer my questions,
You mean like.... answer questions with questions
but why are you so bent on making me out as stupid, immoral, callous and indifferent?
It's not my fault if you feel that way.
You don't answer my question but give me some vague, ambiguous, unspecific and quite useless advice.
Me giving you advice? nope
Nobody has mastered the ageing process, so your suggestion is science-fiction or pseudo-science, not to be taken seriously.
Re-read what I wrote .... who is at your service desperately trying to restore.....
-
Is this a question asking for a logical or spiritual explanation?
Is this a question asking for a factual or spiritual explanation?
So, no, I was more after the facts and logics to understand the process.
Thank you for the answer
-
Peace,
Meaning of kafir copied from wikipedia
Kafir (Arabic kfir, plural kuffr) is an Arabic term used in a Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as "unbeliever," "disbeliever," or "infidel." The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth."
According to Oxford Dictionary of Islam the word 'Kafir' means 'Unbeliever. First applied to Meccans who refused submission to Islam, the term implies an active rejection of divine revelation. In Islamic parlance, a kfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith, i.e. "hides or covers ."'
"Kafara," which shares the Arabic root K-F-R with "kafir," means to "disbelieve," and also to be "thankless," "ungrateful," "disown," or "deny."
The Qur'an uses the word kafir to signify various negative qualities of a person, all of which assist in the precise defining of kufr. 482 derivations of the K-F-R root occur in the Qur'an, testifying to the importance of the concept of kufr. In the structure of Islamic thought, kufr represents all things unacceptable and offensive to God (Allh). In its most fundamental sense in the Qur'an, kufr means "ingratitude," however the Qur'an contains numerous verses in which more detailed definitions are provided.
The triliteral root kf f r ( ر occurs 525 times in the Quran, in 14 derived forms
289 times as the form I verb kafara (َ
14 times as the form II verb kaffara (َ
once as the form IV verb akfara (َ
27 times as the noun kfir (ر
once as the noun kfr (ر
five times as the nominal kaffr (ر
four times as the noun kaffrat (ة
37 times as the noun kuf'r (ر
once as the noun kuf'rn (ن
12 times as the nominal kafr (ر
three times as the noun kufr (ر
once as the noun kawfir (ر
129 times as the active participle kfirn (ن
once as the active participle kfirat (ةPeace O0
-
StopS let me make some things clear. I have no problems with what you believe or not believe in. You have this attitude that others should provide you with evidence and then you will change your mind. What I see in reading your post is arrogance, ignorance and loftiness that we need to defend our beliefs to you and providing evidence for you. Sure will not be me. You asked why I am posting. Mainly to address confused who started this post and also others lurking the site who are sincerely interested in learning and understanding. I do invite you to continue commenting as you have as you will only help in making my points. Someone who is knocking on the doors to atheism like confused can think about what you say and decide for herself where she stands.
-
Continuing on......
so either God exists or not. Either there is afterlife or not. Either the Koran is from God or not. Let me start off by making my positions clear. Yes, I believe God exists. I believe in afterlife and I believe that the Koran was not written by Muhammed or some Arab men.
Lets take one step at a time in a systemic fashion so we are not all over the place. The first step is belief in God. Confused, put aside scriptures and what people have told you. Question is do you believe in higher being who created you?
My belief is yes. What am I basing my belief on? By way of asking questions and wondering about life. how did i come into being? and origins of life? did i come from nothing? none of us can really know for certain the origins. At best, we can postulate. We can theorize what may have happened billions of years ago. the more i think about life and the more i learn, it is really hard for me to believe that things just started as a random, spontaneous process or by nature? What is nature and natural process?
It was only in the 1950s that we really came to understand DNA and we are constantly discovering and learning new things. When I first came to read about DNA, i was struck by the organization and structure. The more I read about this DNA, composition, embryogenesis, anatomy, physiology.... the more it lead me to wonder. How did life began long ago? Did the building blocks of DNA just come together to form this highly structured genetic code? What was the driving force behind the nucleotides to come together? "Nature" just put together the DNA for all living things? 3 billion bases on 23 chromosomes just came about from nothing? When I studied meiosis and mitosis- how so organized and structured the whole process is lead me to wonder if there is a master designer. When I held a human bone in anatomy class feeling every bump and learning the reason for every groove and bump, how everything fit in, it really made a sceptic out of me that all this could not be a result of "nature".
DNA has the instruction to form organs but I am more than just organs. I have emotions, feelings, thoughts - are they all just chemical reactions? The more I saw myself in the mirror and the living things around me, the more I felt convinced that there has to be a higher power. A master designer.
And this is why I believe in a God. This makes me a theist. I don't limit myself nor am i concrete in my thinking of "no evidence of God". For me, "evidence" is in life and all around us. I think beyond of the possibilities and the unknown.
Second point is belief in the life hereafter. It is just hard for me to believe that this life is it. It doesn't bode well with me. And at times, I think that the main reason why I believe in the life hereafter is due to injustice in this world. It doesn't sit well with me that most people get away, especially those who do so all in the name of God. That really bothers me the most. I have seen and experienced much that it is hard for me to think that this life is it. I believe in responsibility and accountability.
As I have said before, my fundamental theist beliefs are independent of scriptures.
Now about the Koran. The first time I read, I don't think I went past the first few pages. But what if it is true? Prior to reading the koran in a language I understand, I had read the bible. Born into traditional Sunni family and growing up in India for the first decade and then growing up in the United States, having attended Hindu and catholic schools, I was well aware of different faiths and beliefs. I started reading the Koran as very much a sceptic and by the time I finished over a span of about 3 years, I embraced it. Of course, there are things that i have troubles with now and then. it is a never ending continuous process of understanding, learning and discovery.
You need to figure out for yourself if the Koran is something that was written by men or perhaps not. I can share what lead me to conclude that it could not have been written by men.
Having said that, let's talk about hell and the verses that you are troubled with. At first when i read the same exact verses, i was troubled as well. We have family friends of many years who are Hindus. My closest and dearest friends are Christians. I have friends who are atheist. My brother is an agnostic. Now, are all of them going to hell? Based on a deeper understanding of God and the message of the Koran, the answer is a no.
Let's take kafirs. Who are they? Not all kafirs are the same and not all are kafirs for the same reasons. The same could be said about believers. Not all kafirs are mischief mongers, plotting against God/believers, acting out of envy, pride, arrogance, twisting and contorting or discarding the scriptures or willfully setting up idols to serve their own purpose may it be political or personal, out to destroy people, etc.
When I read the Koran, I try to understand the context. And also the general message. Who are these kafirs that the verses are referring to? Are they referring to my friend a very good person who believes Jesus is son of God. He believes that, as that is what he has been told. He is a follower than a questioner and it has been engrained in his mind that questioning is way of satan and that's how he leads people astray. Would He burn in eternal hellfire for that? I have had Christians trying to get me to accept Jesus as son of God as they truly believe that and are concerned for my soul ending up in hell. Are they going to hell for that? How about my brother who rejected the Koran and doesn't care for religious groups? Is he going to hell? How about friends of my family who are Hindus believing in Ganesh, Krishna, shiva, etc? Are they going to hell?
I can't think of the verses but my understanding is that at the end, we will all come to know the truth. God will explain to us what we varied on. And the good things we have done will be rewarded and bad things will be punished. Reward is based in accordance to your deeds. Just professing that you believe in God's existence is not getting you in heaven. It is only wishful thinking on people's part that if I accept Jesus then all my sins are forgiven or if I recite this or perform that ritual or die on a certain day or time then I am going to heaven. All wishful thinking.
Statement of belief is not enough. I could believe in the existence of God but be a sociopath. Just acknowledging that God exists means really nothing. Reasons for believing or not believing is another consideration. Why did my brother reject the Koran? Was it out of arrogance/pride or due to limitedness in understanding or comprehending or misunderstanding or troubles with certain concepts? Each persons circumstance and experience is different. Also the intentions/actions/deeds matter. For example, my Christian friends who want me to accept Jesus are doing so out of sincerity and concern, not to willfully lead me astray. They are not motivated by power, control or malice. When you think about it, power, control, land, and women are the primary motivation for these sects/religious groups who like to use the name of God to achieve their goals and purpose. And you know what the Koran says about those who do that? Pretty harsh words and warnings.
Confused, I really do think that your understanding of kafir is shaped by people and in the environment that you are living in. I suggest that you free yourself of that. I have read those same verses in the Koran and my understanding is far different than yours. Actually what makes you turn away from the koran is exactly what makes me turn towards. I don't profess to know all things and certainly I am not God and surely cant say for certain of afterlife but this is what I think and believe. And my views and beliefs are shaped by my own thinking, life experiences and from the Koran.
Others likely will disagree which is fine. it surely remains to be seen if I got it right.....
- those who believe in God, the life hereafter and strive to lead a righteous life doing good things who embody the definition of a believer in thoughts, characteristics, behavior and actions will be rewarded in the highest way.
- those who are enemies of God, willfully leading people astray who basically posses the characteristic of satan acting out of arrogance, ego, pride, selfishness, and such will be punished with hell in the worst way.
Between the two extreme minority groups, you have all the other kinds. The garden variety. I trust that God who is just will do the just thing bearing in mind that my definition of justice might be different. I may find so and so not worthy but I am biased. I am at best a faulty human. My yardstick and God's are different. I am certain though that no punishment will be undeserved. Each will be tailored to the individual and their deeds.
Let's take examples of few who don't believe god exists or not sure. My brother is an agnostic and although he has issues with religious groups, he is very respectful, ethical and charitable. Has done a lot of good things. he is into green earth and all that. One of my cousins who is an atheist is disrespect calling theists immature. He believes this life is it. As there is no afterlife, if you get away with things then you get away. His primary motivation in life is money and he only helps those who do things for him. He is doing things in the family that is wrong, adding stress, causing pain. Another person I know who is doesn't believe in God has had a rough life. Her mom was a drug addict. She was raised by her grandmother till she died and at age 10 went to live with her mom. She had to take care of siblings and her mother died of overdose. Her father is in prison for murder. she didnt have a childhood. Didn't finish school. all that she has known is pain and instability in her life. Then you have an atheist who is arrogant in his ways having read parts or all of the koran getting into arguments with believers having the attitude that if God is so omnipotent and all that then God can provide him with evidence and guide him. So, are these unbelievers the same? Should they be treated the same?
From my understanding of God and the Koran, each individual will be judged accordingly. You are not going to hell just because of your beliefs. Contrary to popular belief, God is a lot more understanding than we are mislead to believe. Each persons journey, circumstance, situation, reasons for belief or disbelief, intentions, motivations, deeds will all be considered.
I can tell you from my own personal experience how caring, loving, understanding God truly is. Some years ago, I experienced something horrific. Basically went into shell shock. I was hurting, angry, depressed, lost. My faith was uprooted from the ground. Literally I threw the koran in the garbage. It was all crap and lies. I was angry at God. Oh I did believe in the existence of God but just not all the characteristics of God. To me, God was a sick being who had nothing better to do than create earth, create people, create heaven, hell. All this suffering. Basically, I told God to screw himself over and if he is going to put me in hell for that, good enjoy and get your jollies. I turned away from God. Not out of arrogance, pride or ego but from pain. Some years later, something happened that there is no doubt in my mind that God never gave up on me, how he never turned away from me. My journey thus far has really lead me to a deeper understanding of God, life. The Koran has indeed been a source of comfort and refuge for me helping me to see and understand things.
An atheist can say anything. Dont care as I know my truths.
About those who think that they can do all kinds of nonsense and all have to do is say sorry and will all be forgiven are only deluding themselves. The Koran is clear on selfish people. Let's not take God for a fool. He knows if someone is sincerely remorseful for the wrongs that they have committed or if they are just sorry for themselves. We an fool and delude ourselves but not God.
Anyhow, this post turned out long but I just wanted to finish my thoughts. I sincerely hope that someday you will find peace within your soul and will be less confused.
-
I have seen more arrogant Muslims and Christians then atheists. Most atheists I know are very respectful of other people's faiths. They chose their path and they don't judge others. Muslims as we all know are not only constantly judging non-Muslims but also condemn Muslims who don't practice their way. I remember an American friend of mine who converted to Islam and was really upset at how Muslims constantly judged one another. In traditional Islam, if you don't practice a certain way, you are not a "bad" Muslim, no, they say you are not a Muslim at all.
The stuff you said about the DNA is very interesting. I am an educated person. I have University degree and a Masters degree. But like everyone I have my limits. I am really bad in science and math and barely passed the two in high school. So how am I supposed to get my head around the DNA science or embryology or other things that are supposed to prove God's existence? Yes, I wonder how the universe came to be, but I don't have the intellect to figure it all out. And guess what, God made me that way? So he gives me limits and then judges me for not being able to figure things out? Besides, religion is an ocean, science is an ocean. You can spend your whole life searching and never find answers. In fact, I know some people who got more confused as they increased their research. Besides, life is busy and complicated. People have school, university, family and kids, to take care of. Who has the time to dedicate every second of their life trying to figure things out? There are some people like me who do dedicate some of their time to finding their truth. But I also have a life and can only do so much. So how God put us in this world, knowing full well how complicated it will be, and then judge us for not having enough time to find the truth?
In terms of punishment, well, I still thing the idea of hell is arrogant, sadistic and just plain stupid. Yes, people should be accountable for everything they do, but to be punished by hell? Fire? Forever? I think this punishment should be kept for people who really hurt humanity, like Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, rebel leaders in Africa who maime and murder people, also killers and rapists. But normal people? Put them in hell just because they chose to believe one faith over the other, or not to believe at all? No, that's just plain ridiculous. -
So what you are saying is that your belief is shaped by people's attitude. Muslims and Christians are in general more arrogant and atheist tend to be less arrogant in how they treat others. And so you lean towards atheism
About figuring things out. Who said I or anybody else have figured things out and God judging you for not figuring things out? We only understand like 10% of how the brain functions. It is very simple as I said previously. Do you believe that a higher being created you or not? If the answer is no because you don't have that "evidence" then end of discussion. Suggest that you stop wasting your time here and go on with your busy life.
If you don't believe in God then simply doesn't make sense to talk about who goes to hell and heaven. It seems that you are so stuck in your thinking that "normal" people go to hell and you just cannot see any other way no matter what. Then I suggest that you stop wasting your time here. Instead of knocking on the doors to atheism, open the doors to atheism. Seems to me that you already have based on your posts.
Growing up, i was told that i am going to hell or will be in purgatory if i dont accept jesus as son of God. Either God had a son with human Mary or not. I tried to understand Christian beliefs. Read the bible. Read the Koran. Came to my conclusions that I don't agree with Christian beliefs and end of story. I don't argue with my Christian friends. I don't have issues with them. I am not bothered by their belief or behavior. I have a busy life and why would I waste my time on pedominately Christian forum asking the Christians for evidence to change my mind or having issues with their belief that I am going to hell for simply not accepting Jesus. Sure doesnt make sense to do that.
So confused, I suggest that you quit wasting your time here. You are right that hell is sadistic and normal people don't belong there. If that is what you understand Koran is saying then it makes sense to reject the koran and go on your way. Simply your life. As you say you find no evidence of God, then end of discussion. Seems to me that you are done knocking on the doors of atheism.
I have said enough. there is nothing new or more i can add and so I am done with my contribution on this post.
-
So what you are saying is that your belief is shaped by people's attitude. Muslims and Christians are in general more arrogant and atheist tend to be less arrogant in how they treat others. And so you lean towards atheism
About figuring things out. Who said I or anybody else have figured things out and God judging you for not figuring things out? We only understand like 10% of how the brain functions. It is very simple as I said previously. Do you believe that a higher being created you or not? If the answer is no because you don't have that "evidence" then end of discussion. Suggest that you stop wasting your time here and go on with your busy life.
If you don't believe in God then simply doesn't make sense to talk about who goes to hell and heaven. It seems that you are so stuck in your thinking that "normal" people go to hell and you just cannot see any other way no matter what. Then I suggest that you stop wasting your time here. Instead of knocking on the doors to atheism, open the doors to atheism. Seems to me that you already have based on your posts.
Growing up, i was told that i am going to hell or will be in purgatory if i dont accept jesus as son of God. Either God had a son with human Mary or not. I tried to understand Christian beliefs. Read the bible. Read the Koran. Came to my conclusions that I don't agree with Christian beliefs and end of story. I don't argue with my Christian friends. I don't have issues with them. I am not bothered by their belief or behavior. I have a busy life and why would I waste my time on pedominately Christian forum asking the Christians for evidence to change my mind or having issues with their belief that I am going to hell for simply not accepting Jesus. Sure doesnt make sense to do that.
So confused, I suggest that you quit wasting your time here. You are right that hell is sadistic and normal people don't belong there. If that is what you understand Koran is saying then it makes sense to reject the koran and go on your way. Simply your life. As you say you find no evidence of God, then end of discussion. Seems to me that you are done knocking on the doors of atheism.
I have said enough. there is nothing new or more i can add and so I am done with my contribution on this post.
I read the first paragraph and refused to read the rest. NO I am not an atheist because I think Muslims are more arrogant then atheists. Do you think I am five years old or something? Even five year olds have more brains than that. I was simply responding to your claim that atheists are arrogant and nothing more. But you latched to that of course.
-
Do you think I am five years old or something? Even five year olds have more brains than that.
Really and you wrote this; people who really hurt humanity, like Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Mubarak, rebel leaders in Africa who maime and murder people, also killers and rapists.
brickwall -
I read the first paragraph and refused to read the rest. NO I am not an atheist because I think Muslims are more arrogant then atheists. Do you think I am five years old or something? Even five year olds have more brains than that. I was simply responding to your claim that atheists are arrogant and nothing more. But you latched to that of course.
I suggest that you go back and read my posts. Seems to me that you read what you want to read. No, I don't claim all atheists are arrogant. As I said, not all atheists are alike and the same. My brother is agnostic and far from arrogant. I have friends who are atheists.
There are those who turn to atheism out of arrogance and ignorance. Do you refute that? Perhaps you have not encountered all the different types of atheists. Just the same, the nicest people I have across have been Christians and Muslims in particular Sunnis.
-
@confused
Growing up, i was told that i am going to hell or will be in purgatory if i dont accept jesus as son of God. Either God had a son with human Mary or not. I tried to understand Christian beliefs. Read the bible. Read the Koran. Came to my conclusions that I don't agree with Christian beliefs and end of story. I don't argue with my Christian friends. I don't have issues with them. I am not bothered by their belief or behavior. I have a busy life and why would I waste my time on pedominately Christian forum asking the Christians for evidence to change my mind or having issues with their belief that I am going to hell for simply not accepting Jesus. Sure doesnt make sense to do that.Perfect! needs to be repeated over and over again
Peace
O0
-
Yes please do spell out to me. What is nature and how did this nature managed to design me and you so differently, us being of the same species?You mean like.... answer questions with questions )It's not my fault if you feel that way.Me giving you advice? nopeRe-read what I wrote .... who is at your service desperately trying to restore.....
This conversation is useless and going nowhere.
-
The term refers to a person who rejects God or who hides, denies, or covers the "truth."
This shows you how ridiculous some people are who write in Wikipedia. You have read my definition and explanation so many times and you still quote this nonsense? What am I doing wrong?
Can you remember just one thing maybe rejection is for proven thing!!!
"Kafara," which shares the Arabic root K-F-R with "kafir," means to "disbelieve," and also to be "thankless," "ungrateful," "disown," or "deny."
Is there any value which I am missing in writing about kafara when discussing kafir?
Is there any value in bringing up the definitions at all?I can bring up the definitions of many derogatory words and still refrain from using them.
-
Ma yujadilu fee ayati Allahi illa allatheena kafaroo fala yaghrurka taqallubuhum fee albiladi
No one disputes concerning the signs of Allah except those who disbelieve, so be not deceived by their movement throughout the land.
One's approval or disapproval of God's words is between them and God.
Peace,
O0