Discussion on 4:3 and meaning of nisa
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Salamun alaika,
Just five preliminary lessons, and you will not feel any hinderance in self translating with the help of online available tools and meanings of individual words. Thereafter, you will learn all nicities yourself.
- Lesson One Identification of words of Quraan merely by watching the text.
- Identification of Phrases in text. (1) Prepositional Phrase; (2) Possessive Phrase; (3) Adjectival Phrase
- Three lessons for Sentence identification---Subject and Predicate and relational/explanatory clauses therein. Nominal sentence and Verbal sentence.
Is it just me who finds it hard to understand Mr. Mazhars post ? confused
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Is it just me who finds it hard to understand Mr. Mazhars post ? confused
You can start a poll, I think 90% forum members will be with you &
I don't mean any offense, but just came to this conclusion after seeing response of other members to Mazher's posts including me.
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You can start a poll, I think 90% forum members will be with you &
I don't mean any offense, but just came to this conclusion after seeing response of other members to Mazher's posts including me.
Hehehe dude I really hope Mr. Mazhar is reading this and would hopefully polish his communication skills.. because its h7aram that he spends so much time on free minds without getting his message throughout to people because they dont understand him.
I hope you agree with me mr. mazhar ;D
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Hmmmmm. Don't know if I agree with this public humiliation. I'm pretty certain it is not good behaviour. There must have been a less hurtful way to communicate to Mazhar that his posts might not be clear?
Peace,
Dawn. -
Hmmmmm. Don't know if I agree with this public humiliation. I'm pretty certain it is not good behaviour. There must have been a less hurtful way to communicate to Mazhar that his posts might not be clear?
Peace,
Dawn.But I just want to help the dude..
Then you must come with another suggestion sister... or perhaps you can have a private discussion with the dude and give him some good advice because your english is very good... Because as it is now my english is very bad, in fact us in Spain are world famous for our bad and horrible english so I am not suitable to give any concrete suggestions to anyone regarding english
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Hehehe dude I really hope Mr. Mazhar is reading this and would hopefully polish his communication skills.. because its h7aram that he spends so much time on free minds without getting his message throughout to people because they dont understand him.
I hope you agree with me mr. mazhar ;D
Salamun alaika,
Please tell me what is not understandable in the post under discussion to enable me to agree with you with thanks.
An evidence of overlooking the basic lessions of reading a text of any language might be seen even in this quote from a person who is an Arab
I will recall and provide you with details for why I didn't considered nesa to be a gender, one of them was because it seemed odd that nesa allegedly are women then why are nesa also translated as wife, daughter, girls etc? Not every woman is a wife, and women cannot be a girl because then she isnt a woman. The correct word to use there would have been UNSA not nesa........... then either the translater misunderstood something or the author of Quran did not knew the difference between the word female and women... As a believer in the quran I put the blame on the translater, not on the author of the quran.
It shows he is not identifying the difference between a word and a phrase.
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Salamun alaika,
Please tell me what is not understandable in the post under discussion to enable me to agree with you with thanks.
An evidence of overlooking the basic lessions of reading a text of any language might be seen even in this quote from a person who is an Arab
It shows he is not identifying the difference between a word and a phrase.
I dont know how I shall explain it to you Mr. Mazhar but when I read your post I feel like I am reading an old chemistry book.. do you understand what I mean ? confused
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salaam huruf, all,
In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
Thanks for pointing this out. I have not researched this in any detail, however a quick google revealed discussion about this area, i.e. how the verb can be either masculine or feminine if the subject mentioned is a broken plural.
e.g.
From http//www.madinaharabic.com/Arabic_Language_Course/LessonsLB/L030_005.html
The verb doers in these sentences are (children) and (people). The two nouns are broken plural ( ٍ forms (Lesson 13). This means that if the verb doer is a broken plural, the verb can be masculine or feminine....From http//forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2025330
The rule you mentioned in post #11 concerns only subject and verb agreeing. So, if the subject is a broken plural, the verb may be either masculine or feminine. / - / - /And specifically here http//khanivorous.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/notes-on-arabic-language.html
For subject which are in the Broken Plural form, the preceding Verb is
a. Singular
b. Of the Opposite Gender
ex. Qala Niswatun (Niswah is a feminine Broken Plural, and Qala is masculine)
ex. Qalat-il-A'raabu (A'raabu is a masculine Broken Plural, and Qalat is feminine)It would be interesting to see what the possible explanations of this are. However, claiming niswatun are part/all male in 1230 does not address what comes after, nor its other occurrence, wherein only feminine forms seem to be used. Nor does it resolve why "nisa" seems to be exclusively used with feminine forms.
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I dont know how I shall explain it to you Mr. Mazhar but when I read your post I feel like I am reading an old chemistry book.. do you understand what I mean ? confused
I tried to say something in simple manner regarding the cognitive process of understanding a written linguistic message.
Otherwise a simple thing, in relation to Qur'aan it starts seeming an old chemistry book, unfortunately. Here, many are scholarly disertations on concepts of Qur'aan without knowing or following the cognitive process.
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I had the impression that it must have something to do with that, since essentially broken plurals are group names, and group names in many languages tend to be3 feminine, but then there arises other questions which are may be even more puzzling. If nisaa' is a broken plural, aren't broken plural for people meant for masculine subjects? I mean the normal plural for women should be imra'at, or not? Also shouldn't the subjects also be in the singular? Because broken plurals are feminine but also concord in the singular. Either there is some concert on this or what it may turn out is a free for all, where anything can be anything. I do not think the Qur'an does that.
The use of nisaa' as a plural, where there is no singular from that same root continues to be an oddity, as it is an oddity that it should be a broken plural.
If we look at rajul-rijaal, it is weird that it comes from foot or leg, but still there is a singular and a plural. Not so with nisaa'.
Also puzzling is that we see that masculine in that sentence in 12.30, but it is weird, if being a broken plural it can be either feminine or masculine, that systematically it is feminine that is used in the Qur'an where nisaa' is concerned.
Also, is niswah really a broken plural? What kind of form or paradigm is that? If anything, it shows the shape of a feminine singular? Is there any other instance where a broken plural is made by adding a ta marbuta at the end and changing a hamza to waw.
The whole thing does not get less puzzling, and I must come back to my queery for a morphological study.
I do continue to have the feeling that the Qur'an is trying to teach us something important, but we are just too closed to let the light come in.
However, I am glad that we keep trying, even if for the moment we do not seem to get ahead. In sha' Allah we will get some fruit of this.
Salaam
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In 12.30 the verb is singular masculine and the subject is taken to be feminine plural. That cannot be.
Peace -- a few possibilities ...
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1230 should be consistent with 1231 and said (f/p) and 1251 said (f/p)
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Who is talking in 1230 -- Joseph, her husband, her kinsmen or NSWh ? in the town?
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Lastly how would one write -- "and said women his"?
1226 he said she sought to seduce me about myself and testified/witnessed witness from her family if it is his shirt torn from front so she speaks truth and he from the liars 1227 and if it is his shirt torn from back so she lied and he from the truthful 1228 so when he saw his shirt torn from back he said indeed it from your plot indeed your plot mighty 1229 Joseph turn away about this one and ask forgiveness for your guilt indeed you are from the sinners
1230 and said (m) NSWh ? in the town woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself hence infatuated her love indeed we surely see her in error clear 1231 so when she heard of scheming theirs (f/p) she sent for them (f/p) and she prepared for them a banquet and brought forth each one (f) from them (f/p) sikknan/a knife? and she said enter onto them (f/p) so when they saw him they admired him and cut hands theirs (f/p) and said (f/p) forbid to God not this one a mortal indeed this one only angel noble
1250 and said (m) the king bring me of him so when came to him the messenger he said return to your lord so ask him what of the al-NSWh ? the ones whom (f/p) cut hands theirs (f/p) indeed my Lord in plot theirs (f/p) Knowing 1251 he said what affair yours (f/p) when you sought to seduce Joseph about himself said (f/p) forbid to God not we know onto him from horrible she said woman the mighty now evident the truth indeed we sought to seduce him about himself and indeed he of from the truthful
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Salaam,
A quick note of an Arabic grammar rule and the use of feminine forms with Nisaa' and Niswatun. In fact, this question came up a while back in this thread concerning the use of the feminine word "wahidatun" in 4/3 and "sadiqaatiheen" in 4/4. I am attempting to not just address those two verses in particular but the rule in general which we see throughout The Quran and in The Arabic Language.
The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
"Sadaqaatiheen" is obviously referring to the last mentioned collective noun which is An-Nisaa' which of course is the word directly before "sadaqaatiheen".
However, I'd like to remind everyone here that collective nouns (although inherently plural in subject) DO have plural forms as well and the rules governing them do change depending of if the plural is a broken plural or sound plural and if it the plural is masculine or feminine in form. As Huruf has been saying, research probably should be done to ascertain if Nisaa is a singular collective noun which has a plural form or if it is already the plural form of a collective noun. If it is already the plural form, which paradigm is it (broken or sound)? What I do know is that the root possibilities Huruf gave us all appear to be "irregular" root words to me which means that we will really have to put our heads together to narrow things down and pinpoint what this word really is grammatically.
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I tried to say something in simple manner regarding the cognitive process of understanding a written linguistic message.
Otherwise a simple thing, in relation to Qur'aan it starts seeming an old chemistry book, unfortunately. Here, many are scholarly disertations on concepts of Qur'aan without knowing or following the cognitive process.
an innate tendency to impress homo sapiens with intricate concepts suggest a lack of completion of its assumptions........
the depth of the standards prerequisites prior lies in competences vacuum which can raise understanding barriers to learning as well as its quality of JURISDICTION... understanding the importance constitute the norm... adjectives agree structure can not be denied or repressed -
an innate tendency to impress homo sapiens with intricate concepts suggest a lack of completion of its assumptions........
the depth of the standards prerequisites prior lies in competences vacuum which can raise understanding barriers to learning as well as its quality of JURISDICTION... understanding the importance constitute the norm... adjectives agree structure can not be denied or repressedrotfl rotfl rotfl I love it. D
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The words Nisaa/Niswatun are Collective Nouns and in Arabic collective nouns are treated as feminine gender. So a proper collective noun will take on the feminine plurals even when the collective noun itself is NOT inherently or intrisically feminine. They are treated as Grammatically feminine.
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Peace Damon,
Does this look to be correct in regard to broken and sound plurals?
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Sound plural where the singular form of the word remains 'sound' i.e. as it is. You just add the sign of the plural at the end of the singular word. For example muslim muslim-oona. The singular remains as it is in the plural form. This is similar to what we have in english of adding an 's' at the end of the word girl girl-s
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Broken plural where the singular form of the word does not remain the same - it gets broken. For example hajar the plural is hIjAArAH - see all the extra letters? Also qalb qUlOOb. You dont just simply add the sign of plural at the end of the singular form, rather the singular form is broken and does not remain the same at all. This is somewhat similar to the word knife in english, where the plural is not 'knifes' - but 'knives' - besides adding the 's' other changes were also made, that is changing the f into a v.
I googled this and found the above information at a Sunni site.
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Salaam Released,
That is correct. Also keep in mind that sound plurals will be masculine or feminine just like the broken plurals will be either masculine or feminine.
Did You Notice??!! Did you notice how the KINDS of plurals and their Method Of Development are spoken of and detailed through your search? Now did you come across any information saying that there is a another way plurals are formed other than sound and broken plurals? Did you come across any such information explaining that plurals are formed in another manner with different root words than the singular?
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There are 50+ verses clearly understood from context that nisaa is women and few verses not understood like below as to who can drop by to visit without asking permission which of course does not include any female strangers and limited to women related i.e. nisahinna/women theirs (f) likewise in 2431 not display adornment theirs (f) except what apparent from it except to list of male relatives or female relatives theirs (f) and not to any strangers who are female...
3355 not blame onto them (f) in fathers theirs (f) and not sons theirs (f) and not brothers theirs (f) and not sons brothers theirs (f) and not sons sisters theirs (f) and not nisahinna/women theirs (f) and not what possess right hands/trust theirs (f) and be mindful The God indeed The God He is over each a thing Witness
2431 and say to the believers (f) they should lower from their gaze and they should guard their chastity and not display adornment theirs (f) except what apparent from it and let them draw their covering over bosoms theirs (f) and not display adornment theirs (f) except to husbands theirs (f) or fathers theirs (f) or fathers husbands theirs (f) or sons theirs (f) or sons husbands theirs (f) or brothers theirs (f) or children brothers theirs (f) or children sisters theirs (f) or nisahinna (i.e. female relatives)/women theirs (f) or what possess right hands/trust theirs (f) or al-tabAyn the walkers behind not the ones the desire from al-rijal/the men or the young those who not aware on private the women and not beat with feet theirs (f) to know what they conceal from adornment theirs (f) and turn to The God all you the believers that you may prosper
Likewise in prior post using context it makes sense as "and said women his in the town" (i.e. either women relatives of her husband or even more kinsmen the testifier who where gossiping and later desired to seduce Joseph along with the wife)...
2118 and said (m) those who not who know ...
1413 and said (m) those who disbelieve ...
1635 and said (m) those who associating partners ...1226 he said she sought to seduce me about myself and testified/witnessed witness from her family if it is his shirt torn from front so she speaks truth and he from the liars 1227 and if it is his shirt torn from back so she lied and he from the truthful 1228 so when he saw his shirt torn from back he said indeed it from your plot indeed your plot mighty 1229 Joseph turn away about this one and ask forgiveness for your guilt indeed you are from the sinners
1230 and said (m) NSWh/women his (m) in the town woman the mighty seeking to seduce her youth about himself hence infatuated her love indeed we surely see her in error clear 1231 so when she heard of scheming theirs (f/p) she sent for them (f/p) and she prepared for them a banquet and brought forth each one (f) from them (f/p) sikknan/a knife? and she said enter onto them (f/p) so when they saw him they admired him and cut hands theirs (f/p) and said (f/p) forbid to God not this one a mortal indeed this one only angel noble
1250 and said (m) the king bring me of him so when came to him the messenger he said return to your lord so ask him what of the al-NSWh/the women his the ones whom (f/p) cut hands theirs (f/p) indeed my Lord in plot theirs (f/p) Knowing 1251 he said what affair yours (f/p) when you sought to seduce Joseph about himself said (f/p) forbid to God not we know onto him from horrible she said woman the mighty now evident the truth indeed we sought to seduce him about himself and indeed he of from the truthful
Peace
