Perception and thought in 4:3-Polygamy for pleasure or obligation
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Peace Released,
I must say I am absolutely shocked that you say I have been totally insulting to you. Please could you cite the incidences. If having a discussion with you and disagreeing with you is insulting to you, then perhaps it is best if we don't talk to each other. I really would like you to detail the insults though, so that I can observe my future behaviour, if , indeed, I have been insulting. I am always careful to be polite to everyone.
Dawn.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
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You sound so much like a marrocan feminist I once met rotfl No offence my friend but please don't forget the human rights of us males
Maybe I should start an organisation called 'Mens human rights' as I feel women would soon control the world &
Peace Wael,
I care for the rights of all. I am against male circumcision as well. However, in regard to marriage, I think both parties should have an equal say as to what happens or changes their overall dynamics. Equality for both sexes.
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Peace Released,
The following is an example of what I am talking about you say my only frame of reference is Saudi women. How do you know this? Certainly, I have spoken only of Saudi women, but you have no more information than that of my frame of references. You cannot assume that I have no more frames of reference. Therefore, in order not to upset someone you might say, "the only frame of reference that you have used so far" Do you see what I mean Released? In this case I am politely saying to you, or reminding you that you are making assumptions. That is not always a good thing to do. I actually have a much wider frame of reference, which is why I find your behaviour a little misguided.
Peace Dawn,
Well, Dawn, let's get this much clear You are not polite. So, please get that notion out of your mind, because it's a bold faced lie.
You have yet to discuss any of your other frames of references and yet, I've spent a really long time explaining things to you while giving you countless examples. All I've gotten in return from you is Saudi women and a random Jamaican man. It's rather pointless. I hope you decide to contribute more than that in the future.
I'm tired of being polite to people who cannot reciprocate the same to me. Do you understand this?
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Marriage which has inevitable sex aspect causes relationship of Man with womb of his wife. This helps and strenghens feelings of love and affection with her children also who were born of her earlier husband.
a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also.Qur'aan tells that once intercourse is done with a woman, her daughter from first husband becomes non-permissible. If this is not done with her and she is divorced, her daughter on becoming mature remains permissible for marriage. This might indicate the delecacy of sex aspect in marriage.
so a man marries a woman, doesn't have sex with her so he can then divorce her and marry her daughter and have sex with her, who I'm presuming is the much desired virgin? Why bother marrying the mother at all, or was that just to keep an eye on things until the child is old enough?
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a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also.
so a man marries a woman, doesn't have sex with her so he can then divorce her and marry her daughter and have sex with her, who I'm presuming is the much desired virgin? Why bother marrying the mother at all, or was that just to keep an eye on things until the child is old enough?
Salamin alaiki,
I don't know.
It is part of 423
and your step-daughters under your guardianship of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you.
and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=23
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Salamin alaiki,
I don't know.
It is part of 423
and your step-daughters under your guardianship of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you.
and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters)
http//corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=23
ok good point, I replied in haste peace
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a wife is more than just a womb, there should be some other kind of relationship with her also
.Ofcourse. However, womb is the most important----beyond sex part
Honour, dignity, respect and exalted implications of plural Wombs is not only evident here but also from its Root which is the same for the all pervasive trait of Allah the Exalted==Ar Rahim.
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Peace Released,
For my part I am going to follow the Koranic edict and walk away from you. I won't drop out of the discussions though.
Peace.
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Peace Dawn,
I've already walked away from you. I'm glad you are finally choosing to follow the Quranic edict in this regard. Oh, and I never asked you to drop out of the discussion, I only encouraged you to chime in with your "insight". Anyway, all the best.
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what the.....I go away for a couple of days, and people start walking away from each other, the same people who gave me the courage to work on the Polygamy thread -__- oh well, why do I care?
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Peace FallenAngel,
I also spent a lot of time on the other thread explaining my ideas and trying to help certain members understand my perspective. However, I don't enjoy being disrespected or lashed out on. I feel like my efforts were in vain.
Discussions may not always end with a concensus or amicable parting. This particular topic is very sensitive. Your efforts led to the creation of another thread, which has proved to be very interesting.
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Peace FallenAngel,
Peace Released,
I also spent a lot of time on the other thread explaining my ideas and trying to help certain members understand my perspective. However, I don't enjoy being disrespected or lashed out on. I feel like my efforts were in vain.
Hmm.....don't worry, your efforts are not in vain, if not her, perhaps someone a couple of years from now might read it and learn something. Similar to how I went through those early threads of 2006.
Discussions may not always end with a concensus or amicable parting
This is a very ponder-worthy statement. I always believed that issues could be resolved easily, by following the 'Refute and Claim' system. When two opposing ideas are presented, and both with evidences, one side refutes it, and claims something based on evidence, then the other side brings its side of evidence, and then the former refutes it and on and on until one side cannot refute anymore which would indicate that the other is right. However, it turns out my theory won't not always work. There will be times like this.
This particular topic is very sensitive. Your efforts led to the creation of another thread, which has proved to be very interesting.
Thank you for saying that, I now feel like I actually did something, its a good feeling. Though I'm still not sure whether my actions will lead to more problems, or a better world.
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Salam mazhar
Thank you for your detailed reply and sorry for my late response I had no internet again.
I'm always thankful to expand my knowledge of Arabic. Hur is the Qur'anic text feminine, i.e. The Quran addresses but only to men? This confuses me ... hypno
So as I understood this is a neutral word for both sexes - for me it was seem logical that the word can be used as feminine or masculine. You say now that it was ALWAYS feminine, right? confused... nope
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Ideally I would still continue to go to the atraban. You have point to the example of 66.5. I know the traditional translation. I have before me 'a reformation translation' of Yueksel and wants to pass but as he translated 66.5 and what proof he has given66.5
it may be that he would divorce you, then his Lord wants to substitute, in your place other wives who are better than you peacefully surrendering, acknowledging, devout, repentant, serving, active in their societies, responsive and foremost ones.Notes sayihat = Which we have translated as active in their societies Simply means to travel or move around for a cause. (not ssaum as normal translation = fasting)
thaiyibat = those who return, or those who are responsive. various derivatives of the same root are used to mean reward or refuge or cloths. (2,125, 3,195) The arabic words for widow are Armila or ayama (see 24.32)
Abkar =young, fresh early risers, foremost / the arabic word for virgin is batyl or adrai thank you for your thoughts Salam
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Peace Fallen Angel,
I am still here, just choosing not to communicate with Released. I feel a little hard done by. She said I had been insulting to her but chose not to give me any concrete examples. I noticed she alo just accused me of lashing out. Something I pride myself on not doing. To be quite honest, I feel it might be cultural. The accusations came out of the blue. This behaviour scares me, I find it a little erratic so we have both rightly agreed to keep away from each other. I am not at all angry with her, just with myself for not acting on my instincts sooner. Anyway, this topic and indeed, the correct translation of the Koran interests me greatly and I plan to keep abreast of the discussion. It's great that the subject has spawned several threads.
Peace.