wine or intoxicants?
-
Salaam!
why is 2.219 and 5.90-91 translated to intoxicants when its quite clear from 12.36, 12.41 and 47.15 that its something that is pressed, and there's rivers of it delicious for the drinkers. I know that khamara means he hid, concealed, he veiled, but is this appropriate to apply to all intoxicants? What do you think?
God bless
-
Peace be on you too.
I also think "khamr" means wine. I also believe that what is true of wine is true of diluted wine (beer) or concentrated wine (booze), so perhaps the more comprehensive though clumsier phrase "alcoholic drink" is better.
With this in mind, and with the passage of 6136-145 in mind, I find it very difficult to quranically defend the more or less global suppression of certain crops (like poppy/coca/hemp/peyote/certain mushrooms/whatever else)As for why people claim the "khamr"-concept extends to other or all non-alcoholic psychoactive substances I can only speculate. Maybe you and I are wrong, or at least partly wrong. Maybe people like to speak about things they have no knowledge of and simply invent a religion that they desire rather than fully submitting to God's will.
-
Salaam to all sun
alchool make loose senses
exrtract from an article, im no sunni but this hadith proves the distortion thaey make even with the hadith.. of course the answer will be this are not suficient good hadith..altough they are sahih whateverhttp//www.morocco.com/forums/islam-islam/26655-hashish-not-forbidden-part-2-a.html
Where is the evidence for these conclusions in the Qur?an or sunnah? These people just extend the arguments concerning wine-alcohol to anything they please. I am not a smoker but I see people who smoke who get cancer, some do not and most do not have any of the ailments of mention. Allah (subhaanahu wa ta?aalaa) rewards, punishes, makes sick, guides, and forgives whom Allah (subhaanahu wa ta?aalaa) pleases. If inhaling smoke is forbidden then why do we have the following evidence.
Translation of Sahih Muslim Book 027, Number 5601
Nafi' reported that when Ibn Umar wanted fumigation he got it from aloeswood without mixing anything with it, or he put camphor along with aloeswood and then said This is how Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) fumigated.Translation of Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 31, Number 194
Narrated Humaid
I asked Anas about the fasting of the Prophet. He said "Whenever I liked to see the Prophet fasting in any month, I could see that, and whenever I liked to see him not fasting, I could see that too, and if I liked to see him praying in any night, I could see that, and if I liked to see him sleeping, I could see that, too." Anas further said, "I never touched silk or velvet softer than the hand of Allah's Apostle and never smelled musk or perfumed smoke more pleasant than the smell of Allah's Apostle."
Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 33, Number 4163
Narrated AbuHurayrah
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said If a woman fumigates herself with perfume, she must not attend the night prayer with us. Ibn Nufayl said Isha' means night prayer.
Hazrat Abdullah Bin Jafar narrates that Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) said ?fumigate your houses with Loban and sheesh.? (Baihaqui)
Another narration reveals ?fumigate your houses with Loban and Saatar.? (Baihaqui)
Fumigation is smoking, using of smoke. Loban, saatar and sheesh are incenses from herbs and aromatic plants.
Translation of Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 71, Number 596
Narrated Um Qais bint Mihsan
I heard the Prophet saying, "Treat with the Indian incense, for it has healing for seven diseases; it is to be sniffed by one having throat trouble, and to be put into one side of the mouth of one suffering from pleurisy." Once I went to Allah's Apostle with a son of mine who would not eat any food, and the boy passed urine on him whereupon he asked for some water and sprinkled it over the place of urine.Volume 7, Book 71, Number 599
Narrated Anas
That he was asked about the wages of the one who cups others. He said, 'Allah's Apostle was cupped by Abd Taiba, to whom he gave two Sa of food and interceded for him with his masters who consequently reduced what they used to charge him daily. Then the Prophet s said, "The best medicines you may treat yourselves with are cupping and sea incense.' He added, "You should not torture your children by treating tonsillitis by pressing the tonsils or the palate with the finger, but use incense."The strong evidence proves that Prophet Muhammad (salli allahu alayhi wa-salaam) fumigation (smoking) with aromatic plants is Sunnah. Fumigation with aromatic plants has medical uses. Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya says in The Prophetic Medicine that aromatic plants and their sweet scents enliven the body and gladden the heart. And Allah knows best.
end of extract
SALAAM may Allah show us the enlighment,
-
Peace be on you too.
I also think "khamr" means wine. I also believe that what is true of wine is true of diluted wine (beer) or concentrated wine (booze), so perhaps the more comprehensive though clumsier phrase "alcoholic drink" is better.
With this in mind, and with the passage of 6136-145 in mind, I find it very difficult to quranically defend the more or less global suppression of certain crops (like poppy/coca/hemp/peyote/certain mushrooms/whatever else)As for why people claim the "khamr"-concept extends to other or all non-alcoholic psychoactive substances I can only speculate. Maybe you and I are wrong, or at least partly wrong. Maybe people like to speak about things they have no knowledge of and simply invent a religion that they desire rather than fully submitting to God's will.
Salaam Magnus,
I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.
I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".What translation do you think is best
- 2219 They ask you about wine and texas hold 'em...
- 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and poker...
- 2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling...
Salaam,
Bender -
Peace Pouya,
Welcome to the forum,
This appears to cover the whole gambit of intoxication.
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to give to charity say, "The excess." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you, that you may reflect,
Here we have more details as to why the prohibition.
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.
The devil wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through intoxicants and gambling, and to distract you from remembering GOD, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?
Here we have "pressing" which is consistant with wine.
Sahih International And there entered the prison with him two young men. One of them said, "Indeed, I have seen myself pressing (airu) wine The other said, "Indeed, I have seen myself carrying upon my head bread, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of its interpretation; indeed, we see you to be of those who do good."
Sahih International O two companions of prison, as for one of you, he will give drink to his master of wine; but as for the other, he will be crucified, and the birds will eat from his head. The matter has been decreed about which you both inquire."
Peace
O0
-
I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.
I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".I agree with this. Especially because of the words "their harm is more than their benefit". Take marijuana for example. Marijuana is used medically in many instances and is an extremely beneficial plant. But too much ingestion will indeed cloud the mind. Not sure about any other plants like peyote, etc. and I'm absolutely sure hard drugs are out of the picture completely. That's common sense, in my opinion.
The thing I'd like to know is, if we are to avoid it, does it mean absolutely completely? I ask this because I am moving to South Korea soon, except if God wills. If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse. To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.
I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"
So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.
Peace.
-
I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"
So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.
Peace -- there are different words being used...
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for folk who reason
443 O you those who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying ...
222... and you see the humankind sukr/intoxicated and not they bisukr/are intoxicated...
2219 they ask you about al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling say in them both harm immense and benefits to al-nas/the humankind and the harm of them both greater from benefit of them both ...
590 O you those who believe surely al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling and the monuments and the arrows filth (masculine indefinite noun) from work the devil so avoid it (i.e. the filth) that you may prosper 591 surely intends the devil that cause between you the hostility and the hatred in al-khmr/the inebriant and the gambling and hinder you about remembrance The God and from the prayer so shall you (be) those who abstain?
It's simple enough -- if one wants to prosper so avoid those things otherwise one can ignore as people ignore the warning labels on cigarettes and alcoholic beverages or excessive compulsive warnings about gambling and it's destructive results.
-
Peace inquisitivetrini
I am kind of sure that we have to avoid khamr completely (whatever it is )
check out the word rijsun (filth) in the Quran, which is used for khamr in 5.90. All verses that have this word seem to put forth something that is even worse than forbidden.
for instance, the same word is used for idol-worship in 22.30. Also faijtanibuhu (avoid it) seems to imply a stronger sense of prohibition than haram. that words is also used in 22.30so to compare
5.90 - faijtanibuhu al rijsa min amalil sheytan = avoid the filth of the work of satan
22.30 - faijtanibuhu al rijsa minal awthani = avoid the filth of idols.Quite similar isnt it?
God bless you
-
Peace inq,
I had some Korean friends back in high school. Back then I was a Sunni, and so I was an odd ball in regard to gelatin and cooking wine as well. I don't even recognize that person anymore. Anyway, I just explained to my friends that I couldn't drink, because it's against my belief system. They were very accepting of it. I find that they weren't pushy or obnoxious over the fact that I don't drink. So, I would try explaining it to them, and see what kind of response you get. One of Korean friend's mom used to make pork free dishes for me, and they never even offered me alcohol.
By the way, hope the Korea trip works out, sounds like a lot of fun!
-
Salaam Inq,
I enjoy reading your posts always.
If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse.
It is actually quite disrespectful to refuse the word of Allah.
To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.
To me, that would be like saying I, a creation, knows better than the Creator how to live this life in Korea. Kind of a sensitive issue. &
I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"
Nice questions . Please read what Abdul-Hadi and Bender said. I agree with them fully, alhamduliAllah.
May Allah make things easy for you, and bless you and guide us to His only path pr
mmKhan -
This book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (22)
As always the quran defines itself. I do not understand why people are running around like headless chickens when they can just cross-reference a single verse and get their definition
443 - O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Now we can also keep in mind this
7619 - None shall touch it (quran) save the purified ones .
So in 443 we have the following conditions avoid 'khamr' until you know what you are saying. Then we have the conditions you must be bodily cleansed, no dirt with the minimum being that your face and hands are clean.
Let us take the working definition of khamr as "that which is not pure". In another verse it has been called 'rijs', filth. This is identical to the opposite of tahara. To read the quran and understand it one must be in a state of physical cleanliness AND mental purity (tahara) according to 7619 cross referenced with 443.
Now does the fact that it is rijs mean it is forbidden? It is no more or less forbidden to touch 'khamr' than it is to touch poop and pee, things you will do multiple times a day with or without your hands. A lot of things are 'rijs'. Anything on the path of satan is 'rijs', anything that is dirty is 'rijs', anything that veils or distorts any less than full clarity of perception is 'rijs'. There are varying degrees. For instance poop is more 'rijs' than pee, as urine is sterile but poop isn't.
Let us be aware there are two words to consider. One is 'khamr' (CLICK ME!) and the other is 'sakara' (CLICK ME!). Click on these words in the last sentence for a direct list of their inclusions in the quran via the Quran Corpus website.
Likewise, the two most common substances which veil the mind are cigarettes & alcohol. The state of 'sakratihim' (intoxication) produced by both are very different! A cigarette distracts from 'salat' when it wears off and the person fiendishly craves for another one. Alcohol distracts from salat both while it is in the system (drunkenness), and when it wears off (hangover).
Now it is said that 'sakara' we must get out of to be in 'tahara'. We must avoid 'al-khamr' entirely to be successful. I hope this helps, more to follow when I can better process and analyse.
peace
-
Salaam Magnus,
I am one of those who think that "khamr" is not only "alcoholic drink" but "things that cover" so it can be alcohol or it can be any other drugs when the context is not clear. Or it can be even a physical covering as in 2431.
I believe that when a verse speaks about "liquid khamr" then it must be clear from the context of a verse, like in 4715.
I believe when such details are not in a verse then we can not conclude that it's talking only about "alcoholic drinks".What translation do you think is best
- 2219 They ask you about wine and texas hold 'em...
- 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and poker...
- 2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling...
Salaam,
BenderSalaam Bender.
I think the best translation is one is one you didn't list among your alternatives
4) 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and gambling...With a strict (alcoholic) definition of khamr, there are clear edges to what the verse means and doesn't mean.
With a more extensive understanding of khamr, the need has now arises to define what is and isn't something "what covers the mind" or whatever this now means. Do we now examine every single psychoactive substance and determine whether it's "khamr", and just according to whom exactly, if opinions on particular effects of various drugs differ - in other words do we allow for the fact that drugs affect different people differently? Do we accept that certain plants that God has created are evil, and that people who want to grow and consume these plants for their psychoactive properties are criminals who should be punished? Is this the "common sense" Inquisitrini referred to when it came to "hard drugs"?
I firmly maintain that God indeed has created not only human brain chemistry but also both the opium poppy and the coca plant, and that anyone who wishes to cultivate these particular plants or any other plants as crops for human consumption has every right to do so according to God's law. -
And Skara is same root as sugar,--becArfull with it
Peace, yes sugars are involved in fermenting alcoholic beverages and well known for thousands of years...
http//www.homebrew.net/ferment/
On Fermentation and YeastYeast is essential to all alcoholic beverages. It is a living thing, trillions of cells in your fermentation vessel, all hungrily turning sugars into carbon dioxide and alcohol for you.
The process of fermenting is basically feeding sugars and nutrients in solution to yeast, which return the favor by producing carbon dioxide gas and alcohol. This process goes on until either all the sugar is gone or the yeast can no longer tolerate the alcoholic percentage of the beverage. Different yeasts produce different results, and have different tolerance levels.Peace -- there are different words being used...
1667 and from fruits the date palm and the grapes you take from it sakaran/intoxicant and provision good indeed in that surely a sign for folk who reason
443 O you those who believe not go near the prayer and you sukr/intoxicated until you know what you are saying ...
-
Peace,
SHAKIR O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, ..................................
intoxication
n- drunkenness; inebriation
- great elation
- the act of intoxicating
- (Medicine) poisoning
some translations use the word intoxicate or intoxicant,
which simply means to be high or not your normal self
stoned, dulled, the senses impaired.
In america we are not allowed to drive while impaired or to go to ones job under
the influence.The opposite of intoxication is sober, God is telling us to be of sound mind
to be sober.Peace O0
-
I agree with this. Especially because of the words "their harm is more than their benefit". Take marijuana for example. Marijuana is used medically in many instances and is an extremely beneficial plant. But too much ingestion will indeed cloud the mind. Not sure about any other plants like peyote, etc. and I'm absolutely sure hard drugs are out of the picture completely. That's common sense, in my opinion.
The thing I'd like to know is, if we are to avoid it, does it mean absolutely completely? I ask this because I am moving to South Korea soon, except if God wills. If I go there, they have a drinking culture that's interlaced with respect. If someone older than me like my boss were to offer me an alcoholic drink, it's actually quite disrespectful to refuse. To them, that would be like saying I, younger foreigner, knows better than the elder Korean. Kind of a sensitive issue.
I guess my question is, does this verse prohibit drinking in it's entirety? The things we're avoiding in 590 is him which is Satan, correct? And if someone believes that we are able to drink wine in moderation, then are we also allowed to idolize in moderation? How about gamble in moderation? If intoxicants in moderation is acceptable, what is the limit? And if intoxicants are completely forbidden, why isn't it mentioned in 51-5? And what's with the wording of 443? If it's forbidden, what is the point of saying "don't rise to salat while intoxicated?"
So sorry for all the questions. I would just like to have some clarity before I'm caught with peer pressure so I can firmly stand my ground instead of flimsily.
Peace.
Salaam inq,
Here is my personal understanding I don't have to tell you that you have to think for yourself and then follow what you think is best.
BLUE I don't think so.
From 2219 we learn that there is also benefit in it.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much they are to give, say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.590 tells us that we have to avoid sajtaan.
590 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and sacraments, and fortunes are an affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.What does sajtaan do with this tools? We can learn this from 591
591 The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact prayer. Will you be deterred?I believe if we use intoxicants and gambling for the benefit in them (as per 2219) then it's ok but if we use them knowing that it wil lead to what is described in 591 then it's totally not ok.
So I think alcohol and drugs for medicines is ok. But if you use it to get drunk/high then I believe it's not ok.
For gambling I can give the next example If there are 3 brothers and there is some dirty job to do then I think it's ok to draw lots. But if you go to gamble in hope to double your fortune then I think it's not ok.RED yes
GREEN same answer as on the blue part. I think there is no moderation, one knows for what he/she is using it.
BROWN It does not say intoxicated. But "a state of mind where one does not know what he/she says". That does not mean only intoxicants (for example medicines that make you high) but also when you are > or rotfl then you for sure are going to ask for things in your sallaat what you are going to regret later when you get back to normal.
The South Korea thing. Some time ago there was a program on Dutch telivision. Some families from Holland went to some very primitive families in Africa to live with them for some time. One of those African families welcomed them with a bucket of blood which they had to drink rotfl It was their way to let them know that they were very welcome, so I guess you are very lucky with a alcoholic drink D
Salaam,
Benderps you thought you were the only one who can write many words and say very little ;D
-
Salaam Bender.
I think the best translation is one is one you didn't list among your alternatives
4) 2219 They ask you about alcoholic drinks and gambling...Salaam Magnus,
I knew you would not like my translations
With a strict (alcoholic) definition of khamr, there are clear edges to what the verse means and doesn't mean.
With a more extensive understanding of khamr, the need has now arises to define what is and isn't something "what covers the mind" or whatever this now means. Do we now examine every single psychoactive substance and determine whether it's "khamr", and just according to whom exactly, if opinions on particular effects of various drugs differ - in other words do we allow for the fact that drugs affect different people differently? Do we accept that certain plants that God has created are evil, and that people who want to grow and consume these plants for their psychoactive properties are criminals who should be punished? Is this the "common sense" Inquisitrini referred to when it came to "hard drugs"?
I firmly maintain that God indeed has created not only human brain chemistry but also both the opium poppy and the coca plant, and that anyone who wishes to cultivate these particular plants or any other plants as crops for human consumption has every right to do so according to God's law.RED I believe they are not evil of themselves, but they can be used for evil things, just like a knife.
BLUE No absolutely not. There is no punishment mentioned in The Quran for using them. So the one who wants to drink alcohol to get drunk or the one who wants to take drugs to get high or the one who wants to gamble to get rich, it's all up to them, no punishment involved.
GREEN sure everyone has every right to do what he/she wishes as long as he does not harm a other with it, but Allah is very clear about the negative things of those things. And anyone knows for him/herself the purpose of using those things.Salaam,
Bender -
Wow thanks guys for answering all of my questions! Lol.
Released Thanks for your advice! I'll definitely keep it in mind on my trip. Thank you for the warm wishes as well. sun
mmKhan I totally understand what you mean. Thanks so much for your insight.
Bender
ps you thought you were the only one who can write many words and say very little ;D
Lol! I thought what you said was quite intriguing. I didn't mind at all.
BROWN It does not say intoxicated. But "a state of mind where one does not know what he/she says". That does not mean only intoxicants (for example medicines that make you high) but also when you are >( or rotfl then you for sure are going to ask for things in your sallaat what you are going to regret later when you get back to normal.
Hmm. Good point. Thank you.
The South Korea thing. Some time ago there was a program on Dutch telivision. Some families from Holland went to some very primitive families in Africa to live with them for some time. One of those African families welcomed them with a bucket of blood which they had to drink rotfl It was their way to let them know that they were very welcome, so I guess you are very lucky with a alcoholic drink D
hypno....rotfl Wow. Indeed!
Thanks again everyone for the insight. Peace and blessings!
-Inq