Four Witnesses
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Peace.
I was curious to know how people understand the testimonies of four witnesses in the Qur'an regarding fahisha/zina.
My wife and I have been trying to understand the difference between the crimes in 415-16 and 242-13. We have also been trying to understand how these four witnesses come about. The verses do not mention if the witnesses are from one event or from several occurrences of the crime. If one person witnesses a couple committing adultery is that person supposed to keep quiet because he/she does not have three other witnesses? How do you collect these other witnesses if they do not witness the crime as a group (which is quite unrealistic, it seems)?
I have heard the understanding that 415 is referring to prostitutes and thus it is more likely that such a woman would be caught in the act by several people, but I'm not sure if this is implied in the verse.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
May God increase our knowledge.
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Peace.
I was curious to know how people understand the testimonies of four witnesses in the Qur'an regarding fahisha/zina.
My wife and I have been trying to understand the difference between the crimes in 415-16 and 242-13. We have also been trying to understand how these four witnesses come about. The verses do not mention if the witnesses are from one event or from several occurrences of the crime. If one person witnesses a couple committing adultery is that person supposed to keep quiet because he/she does not have three other witnesses? How do you collect these other witnesses if they do not witness the crime as a group (which is quite unrealistic, it seems)?
I have heard the understanding that 415 is referring to prostitutes and thus it is more likely that such a woman would be caught in the act by several people, but I'm not sure if this is implied in the verse.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
May God increase our knowledge.
I see the verse as primarily dealing with slandering and accusation of sexual misconduct. Something that often leads to honor killings in Arab tribal societies. Its 4 times easier for the accuser to get punished than an adulterer if you read the verse. The adultery aspect is a symbolic punishment meant to give us an idea of the extent of the sin. Even if a spouse sees something the other can swear that he lied. Most people if not all would lie to avoid getting lashed. Lashing is not a joke and people lie for a lot less. So i see the adultery aspect as something symbolic but not designed to be applied. Adultery is a complex issue and must be dealt by family and the couple.
In fact the occasion that the verse came down is accusation and slander. The Koran primarily was focused on that. The verse was designed to stop people for speaking out about adultery and sexual betrayal.
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Peace.
I was curious to know how people understand the testimonies of four witnesses in the Qur'an regarding fahisha/zina.
My wife and I have been trying to understand the difference between the crimes in 415-16 and 242-13. We have also been trying to understand how these four witnesses come about. The verses do not mention if the witnesses are from one event or from several occurrences of the crime. If one person witnesses a couple committing adultery is that person supposed to keep quiet because he/she does not have three other witnesses? How do you collect these other witnesses if they do not witness the crime as a group (which is quite unrealistic, it seems)?
I have heard the understanding that 415 is referring to prostitutes and thus it is more likely that such a woman would be caught in the act by several people, but I'm not sure if this is implied in the verse.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
May God increase our knowledge.
I believe the word for four , doesn't necessarily mean four - see lanes or something, as i remember it can mean credible aswell.
This word was probably translated as four -possibly to concuct the four sacred months, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
peace
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My Dear Bigmo and others,
Allah in quran talks a lot about past events,let us call it history,and Allah thinks that we are also supposed to know the history that Allah has not mentioned in quran.Now about 4 witnesses,I read somewhere in google,about the quranic word ,"ZINA".History and language ;iterature tells us,that this word zina is originally from hebrew , like so many other words in quran.This will tell you,that zina was done to a lady as a punishment,in an open place,in front of public,to teach her and others,to keep away from zina.So in such case it was easy to get four witnesses.But islam does not like this practice of zina in open with faultering lady.Moreover this practice was rarely done in and around Mecca,but at the northern parts of present Saudi arabia.But at the same time some high hands use to enjoy this.So 4 witnesses isnot a requirement of zina,but zina in open place.just google----- zina in preislamic era------thanks
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Salaam, jtc,
I agree with Bigmo. The ayas following the punishment for zina do not lash out to zanis, but to slanderers.
On the other hand, of course it cannot be several acts of zina, one witness to each act in the same way that you do not group the iness of one murder to testify on another murder and them some up a bit of murder here and a bit of murder there to make a whole murder. That would kill any penal system on earth and outside.
As to 4.15, yes I am confident it is about prostitution, and it says fahisha, so it is not zina. If the act of zina is done, (which is usually the case) by a prostitute, still four witnesses should be needed, but then it would entail the prostitute and the client. However since it says fahisha done by women it can be understood that it is soliciting, inviting publicly, as is shown by the requirement of the four witnesses. However in this aya there is no talk of punishment, but what it says is to take those people off the street and lodge them properly till they find or are provided a decent means of living or they die.
Salaam
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Salaam, jtc,
I agree with Bigmo. The ayas following the punishment for zina do not lash out to zanis, but to slanderers.
On the other hand, of course it cannot be several acts of zina, one witness to each act in the same way that you do not group the iness of one murder to testify on another murder and them some up a bit of murder here and a bit of murder there to make a whole murder. That would kill any penal system on earth and outside.
As to 4.15, yes I am confident it is about prostitution, and it says fahisha, so it is not zina. If the act of zina is done, (which is usually the case) by a prostitute, still four witnesses should be needed, but then it would entail the prostitute and the client. However since it says fahisha done by women it can be understood that it is soliciting, inviting publicly, as is shown by the requirement of the four witnesses. However in this aya there is no talk of punishment, but what it says is to take those people off the street and lodge them properly till they find or are provided a decent means of living or they die.
Salaam
This is the only time the Koran used deterence as a form of justice rather than proportional justice. Deterence often means that some punishment are made to DETER someone from doing something, in this case its slandering. Even if a person is saying the truth he can still be held accountable since he needs to bring forth other witness. This is because often in the case of slander, evidence is rarely needed but reputation takes over. Many honor killings happen that way. In the US Blacks were often hanged and killed because of false accusation. Deternce is not a Quraic criteria for justice but there are exceptions where accusation alone can create harm to someone else because of gender bias or racism etc.
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Indeed, Bigmo, and today we hve a modern version of that, what is called "media lynching". You can undo political or other careers by that system without any risk, because going through courts is very expensive and at any rate, even with a favourable veredict at the end of it, the reputation is gone and in the best case, doubts will linger no matter what and by the time the clearing verdit may come out, the harm will have already been done.
Salaam
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Peace jtc,
I'm not trying to hijack your thread or advertise my thread, but I started a thread in regard to this topic some time back, here's the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604441.0
Basically, I find it necessary for the four witnesses to bring forth substantial proof before someone can be convicted. I wouldn't allow for a verdict (in my imaginary court) based on purely eyewitness testimony. The basic rationale being People are capable of the most convincing lies. In the US, every year people are removed from death row decades after being convicted, due to new DNA evidence. People should bring forth their proof if they are indeed telling the truth. Otherwise, they should keep it shut. That's just my humble opinion.
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Indeed, Bigmo, and today we hve a modern version of that, what is called "media lynching". You can undo political or other careers by that system without any risk, because going through courts is very expensive and at any rate, even with a favourable veredict at the end of it, the reputation is gone and in the best case, doubts will linger no matter what and by the time the clearing verdit may come out, the harm will have already been done.
Salaam
Very true. Historically many Blacks in America were lynched because of accusations of crime. Many times no evidence was needed. You analogy of politicians is very accurate. In fact a case can be made from the verses regarding the media and its responsibility. Whats interesting about the verses is that truth here is not the important factor but deterence. Its to deter someone from opening his mouth even if he actually saw something. Interesting the Quran also made such provisions when it came to spousal accusation. Een if a spuse caught their partner in an act, he still has to swear four times and so does the other spouse. Most cases the other partner will deny the accusation and the Quran knows that. After all the Quran did allow people to proclaim disbelief with their tongues if they are being tortured as long as its not coming from their hearts. Lashing is a form of torture and torment. At the same time the verses also tells us the Quran does see zina as a crime and a major sin but not necessarily to be persecuted. Adultery is truly unique case in the Quran. There is a responsibility to your partner and to God but also there is individual freedom.