Are Quran-aloners being arrogant?
-
Salam everyone,
Thank you all for your valuable contribution to the topic.
I think we should realize first what the Hadiths are. Hadiths were not created out of thin air by Bukhari, Muslim and others 250 years later.
The practices and sayings of Prophet Muhammad in matters such as praying, fasting, charity were passed down from generation to generation by word-of mouth (because of the oral Arab tradition of transmission).
Then 250 years later, Bukhari decided to DOCUMENT these practices and sayings in a physical publication. Therefore, this process was simply a documentation of the word-of mouths and practices which were passed down from Prophet Muhammad. Not created out of thin air.
Granted hadiths are not 100% accurate, I've personally found that with deep study of hadiths and putting the pieces together, it is possible to construct the life of the Prophet Muhammad and follow his deeds in a spiritual level eg. his strategymaking genius, his leadership, his integrity, honesty, devotion etc.
And please note I'm not saying that we cannot question hadiths. I've noticed some individuals who totally reject hadiths as falsehood. I'm simply questioning this approach.
Salamun alaika,
Except the Fasiqoon, no one arrogantly disregards the Word spoken and conveyed to humanity by the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted. I leave it to you to determine and let me know the Word spoken and conveyed by him which he made binding for me to follow.
Salam,
In my opinion, he made the Quran binding to follow. However, at that time people did things like how to pray, how to fast etc imitating the Prophet. Some details about these practices are simply not in the Quran (probably the non essential parts). In this case, I see no harm if people take details from the Hadiths (in light of the Quran)
This statement is a complete oxymoron. If you accept and uphold ANY of the ahaadith outside of The Quran then you are not a quran aloner as you put it. Another thing, it is misleading to say that you accept ahadith which (as you put it) complement and do not contradict the Quran. You mean which complement and do not contradict the Quran according to Your Understanding. I'm afraid that this is very problematic.
I didn't mean to use the term "quran aloner" in a literal sense. Many Quran alone scholars such as Kassim (from Malaysia), Joseph Islam advocates the following of hadiths which do not contradict the Quran.
Each one of us follow everything according to our own understanding. You understand and follow the Quran according to your understanding too. So, I don't see any problem with subjectivity.
Peace,
Just an addition to the topic regarding hadith.
Even if you follow hadith which does not contradict the Quran, it may as well be following pure conjecture.
If some in a collection of Hadith show severe flaws, why should anything of it be believed in and followed.It is the same risk as to be following the strange rituals in the Old Testament. The hadiths are probably as biased as the OT, why then follow even those that seem not to contradict the Quran?
The OT commands stoning, circumcision, strange worship rituals and many other things. Should we follow them? Some strange rituals and procedures do not appear to contradict the Quran, so should we follow those too? Praying while burning incense etc? Being scared of burning the wrong incense because God could consume us with fire?
This is why I do not dare following any other than God's authentic hadith in the Quran.
Conjecture, to what degree? Isn't the Quran a conjecture by itself? A careful study of the compilation of the Quran would also prove the Quran to be a conjecture. You could argue hadiths to be more of a conjecture, but both are conjectures nevertheless.
@solomon,
I agree with you that there are hadiths that don't contradict the Koran. Amongst these non-contradictory hadiths, can you show me just one hadith that is the saying of the prophet? Just one hadith that is narrated by prophet Muhammed. Not narrated by Abu huraira, Umar bin al-khattab, etc.
If what you say is true that the hadiths are the sayings of he prophet, then show me just one hadith that starts as "narrated by prophet Muhammed".
If you notice, not even the Quran is the saying of the Prophet. When you are reading the Quran, one verse is "compiled by Uthman, collected by Ziad, collected from Umm Kaab's writing in a tree leaf, heard the Prophet saying .......". Skip to another verse and it is "compiled by Uthman, collected by A who collected from B, who heard the Prophet saying.........".
So, both hadiths and quran are not the sayings of the Prophet directly.
Many Quranist accept hadiths but the ones which contradict the Quran. There is nothing wrong Quranically about that. But you must not make that binding. Only explicit verses of the Quran should be binding.
There is nothing wrong with prostrating also. Some Quranist have problems with that i think because they think its shirk. Shirk is something very different. Thats why some Quranist have problem with ka'ba. But shirk is something very different. Shirk is a theology and not a behavior. Shrik is base don what you believe and not what you do.
But,
there is nothing wrong with rejecting any other source other than the Quran. In fact there is nothing wrong with following the OT only or the Gospel only as all these scriptures are guidance in their own right. But to understand the deen with depth you need multiple sources.
I personally look at hadiths, previous scriptures and even Talmudic sources to interpret the Quran or even understand the deen more. But anyone of the scriptures is enough for salvation. We are all here for extra knowledge because it is something that inspires us. But the basics are very much known by scriptures.
Thanks, very good point about the prostration part. I agree with you.
-
Peace soloman.
Quran is all we need for salvation
The words of the Quran speak in 1964, saying,
We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.
God did not forget, for example, to tell us how to sleep (18109, 3127). Yet, the fabricators of such false doctrine as Hadith & Sunna have come up with religious teachings dictating to their followers how to sleep, and even how to cut your nails and so on...
Claiming we need another source for salvation is a direct contradiction to what God says.
The Quran proclaims that it is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (619, 38, 114, 115; 5045), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (4221, 1746).
The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. This principle is confirmed by the Quran. .
Upholding anything else is idol worship.
Peace.
-
Peace soloman.
Quran is all we need for salvation
The words of the Quran speak in 1964, saying,
We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.
God did not forget, for example, to tell us how to sleep (18109, 3127). Yet, the fabricators of such false doctrine as Hadith & Sunna have come up with religious teachings dictating to their followers how to sleep, and even how to cut your nails and so on...
Claiming we need another source for salvation is a direct contradiction to what God says.
The Quran proclaims that it is complete, perfect, and fully detailed (619, 38, 114, 115; 5045), and that religious regulations not specifically instituted in the Quran constitute a religion other than Islam, (4221, 1746).
The true believers uphold the Quran, the whole Quran, and nothing but the Quran. This principle is confirmed by the Quran. .
Upholding anything else is idol worship.
Peace.
I wonder, good logic, were all the early muslims idol worshippers? In those days, in the entire Umayyad caliphate, you'd have not more than 5 or 6 copies of the Quran. Islamic practices were carried out by following words of mouth (AKA hadiths).
So, were all the early muslims idol worshippers?
I think your excerpt was copied from rashad Khalifa. This is what I think IMHO is arrogance.
-
Peace,
The Quran is not conjecture, it is an infallible revelation from God, no guesswork or wishful thinking.
Separate man-made hadith from the Quran please. Hadith is alleged observations, not revelation.
May God show us the light.
-
Peace solomon.
5 or 6 copies? Are these assumptions?
Do you not believe God when He says His book is fully detailed?
What about before that? When Qoran was still being inspired to the prophet?
The fact remains you have Qoran now, and either you believe God, or you do not?
That is the choice we have.
Peace.
-
Peace,
The Quran is not conjecture, it is an infallible revelation from God, no guesswork or wishful thinking.
Separate man-made hadith from the Quran please. Hadith is alleged observations, not revelation.
May God show us the light.
Nope, even the Quran is a conjecture. No use denying reality.
If you notice, not even the Quran is the saying of the Prophet. When you are reading the Quran, one verse is "compiled by Uthman, collected by Ziad, collected from Umm Kaab's writing in a tree leaf, heard the Prophet saying .......". Skip to another verse and it is "compiled by Uthman, collected by A who collected from B, who heard the Prophet saying.........".
What you have today is the Quran according to Uthman. Each verse had a distinct chain of transmission that traced back to the Prophet (much like hadiths, only a shorter time period).
There were qurans according to Ali, Ayesha, Ubayy Kaab, Ibn Masud. All those qurans were burnt to avoid dissident. And you're saying Quran isn't conjecture? Get real.
-
Nope, even the Quran is a conjecture. No use denying reality.
What you have today is the Quran according to Uthman. Each verse had a distinct chain of transmission that traced back to the Prophet (much like hadiths, only a shorter time period).
There were qurans according to Ali, Ayesha, Ubayy Kaab, Ibn Masud. All those qurans were burnt to avoid dissident. And you're saying Quran isn't conjecture? Get real.
Can you back up your claims with evidence?
-
Nothing wrong in reading and following the best of ......... Bukhari, Muslim, Plato, Homer, Hesiod, Aristotle, Patience Strong or your uncle Jack, just don't take it as 'part of religion or Islam'
Concerning stoning in OT, or Torah, yes for certain things, one of which was 'abrogated' or changed to lashing in Quran.
Follow the religion of Abraham...........who was before Moses and any of the books we know of.
peace
I agree we should follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism. Rest are non essentials.
-
@soloman
You started out saying that hadiths are the sayings of the prophet then you admitted that hadiths are not the narrations of the prophet. Now you are saying that the Quran is also conjecture just like hadiths.
So let's get this straight. You are a Quran alone Muslim who believes that Quran and hadiths are all conjectures.
I think you have made yourself clear to me.
-
Peace,
Then I understand you standing, and I do not share it.
In my world the Quran remained intact through the years and a verse even says the scripture is infallible.
I hope you know what you are doing.
Do you mean Quran alone people are arrogant?
May God forgive us.
-
Peace solomon.
5 or 6 copies? Is this an assumption?
What about the time when Qoran was still being sent through the prophet?
The fact remains we have Qoran today. Do you believe God when He says His book is fully detailed?
Peace.
-
I didn't mean to use the term "quran aloner" in a literal sense. Many Quran alone scholars such as Kassim (from Malaysia), Joseph Islam advocates the following of hadiths which do not contradict the Quran.
Each one of us follow everything according to our own understanding. You understand and follow the Quran according to your understanding too. So, I don't see any problem with subjectivity.
Quoting names of others who follow the same practice as you is not a validation of the practice. And yes I do follow the Quran according to my understanding BUT I DO NOT partake in the ahaadith outside of The Quran.
Quick question for you...
If the ahaadith that Bukhari and Co. collected were Orally passed down from generation to generation (as you had put it) WHY did Bukhari have to travel FAR and WIDE to TRACK DOWN those very few handful of people to hear hadith from? If they were widespread oral traditions passed from generation to generation, Bukhair should have been able to approach anyone and get his ahaadith from them. But by his own admittance he did not do this. So WHAT were the people following and upholding BEFORE Bukhari and Co. concocted these phony ahaadith???
Something I am recommending that everyone here read if/when they can The TRUTH About Hadith
-
I used to be the typical naive Muslim who hates israel and supports the Palestinians. Then was persuaded to do more research about the matter by a Zionist. After my research of history and present, I realized the crap that I've been fed all along.
Now I'm a Zionist and firmly support Israel in the conflict and consider Israel to be the only shining beacon of the middle east.
Let's all be sure of who you are. A Zionist.
-
@soloman
You started out saying that hadiths are the sayings of the prophet then you admitted that hadiths are not the narrations of the prophet. Now you are saying that the Quran is also conjecture just like hadiths.
So let's get this straight. You are a Quran alone Muslim who believes that Quran and hadiths are all conjectures.
I think you have made yourself clear to me.
I'm simply exposing the fallacy of those advocating complete rejection of hadith. If you reject hadith, you have to do the same with quran
-
Peace,
Then I understand you standing, and I do not share it.
In my world the Quran remained intact through the years and a verse even says the scripture is infallible.
I hope you know what you are doing.
Do you mean Quran alone people are arrogant?
May God forgive us.
What if that verse was inserted later on?
-
Peace solomon.
5 or 6 copies? Is this an assumption?
What about the time when Qoran was still being sent through the prophet?
The fact remains we have Qoran today. Do you believe God when He says His book is fully detailed?
Peace.
No, this is not an assumption. This is the opinion of historians and archaeologists. This is due to the fact that most people were illiterate and papyrus was expensive.
So, by your Rashadist logic from your previous post, all early muslims were idol worshippers. Explain this first then I'll answer if quan is fully detailed or not.
-
Quoting names of others who follow the same practice as you is not a validation of the practice. And yes I do follow the Quran according to my understanding BUT I DO NOT partake in the ahaadith outside of The Quran.
While it may not be a validation, it does disprove your literal understanding of the term "quran aloner". Even quran aloners can be hadith-accepting.
If the ahaadith that Bukhari and Co. collected were Orally passed down from generation to generation (as you had put it) WHY did Bukhari have to travel FAR and WIDE to TRACK DOWN those very few handful of people to hear hadith from? If they were widespread oral traditions passed from generation to generation, Bukhair should have been able to approach anyone and get his ahaadith from them. But by his own admittance he did not do this. So WHAT were the people following and upholding BEFORE Bukhari and Co. concocted these phony ahaadith???
People were obviously following ORAL traditions before the hadith. Again, as I said previously, Bukhari's role was NO MORE than DOCUMENTATION of these oral traditions. If Bukhari didn't do it, somebody else would inevitably later on.
He had to travel far and wide to ensure only trustworthy individuals are selected for Hadiths.